Miscellaneous Qs for LSJ

orpheus

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- Do Baldesar or Black Cat reduce the cost of equipements when using the
Pier 13 of Baltimore ?

- Of the following cards, which will protect from a Rötschrek and why :
Elemental Stoicism, Chill of Oblivion, Skin of Night, Jalal's special ?

Thanx,

Orpheus
 
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Orpheus wrote:

> - Do Baldesar or Black Cat reduce the cost of equipements when using the
> Pier 13 of Baltimore ?

Black Cat yes.
Baldesar uses "you play", so only gets the ones played in the normal manner.

> - Of the following cards, which will protect from a Rötschrek and why :
> Elemental Stoicism, Chill of Oblivion, Skin of Night, Jalal's special ?

(Jalal has no special that could be misconstrued to protect against
Rötschrek. Perhaps you meant Jalan-Aajav).

The ones that cause the incoming damage not to be aggravated (or not
to be incoming would work as well, I suppose). That is, none of them.

Rötschrek doesn't care how the target will treat incoming agg, only that
the agg is incoming.

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I thought that Jalal has a built in Psyche! which I heard is a defense
against Rotschrek. True? Not true?
 
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> I thought that Jalal has a built in Psyche! which I heard is a defense
> against Rotschrek. True? Not true?
>
>

Correct, Jalal Sayad trumps Rotschreck (assuming he has blood to spend).

Jalal Sayad [FN:U2]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Assamite
Group: 2
Capacity: 6
Discipline: pot CEL QUI
Independent: Once each turn after completing combat, Jalal may burn 1
blood to begin another combat with the opposing minion. (Blood Cursed)
Artist: Christopher Shy

Jalan-Aajav's special will not work since Rotschreck doesn't care.

Jalan-Aajav [BH:U2]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Gangrel antitribu
Group: 3
Capacity: 9
Discipline: ani CEL FOR POT PRO
Sabbat. Black Hand Seraph: Once each round, Jalan may burn 1 blood to
treat aggravated damage as normal. He gets 1 optional press each combat.
Artist: James Stowe
 
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Gregory Stuart Pettigrew wrote:
> > I thought that Jalal has a built in Psyche! which I heard is a
defense
> > against Rotschrek. True? Not true?
>
> Correct, Jalal Sayad trumps Rotschreck (assuming he has blood to
spend).

I wouldn't say his special "trumps" Rotschreck. I think only Sire's
Index Finger and Sudden Reversal have the capability to completely
negate it.

However, his Psyche!-like special does allow him to continue combat,
and thus prevents the torporization part of Rotschreck, though he'll
still suffer from the untap portion if applicable.

Jeff

> Jalal Sayad [FN:U2]
> Cardtype: Vampire
> Clan: Assamite
> Group: 2
> Capacity: 6
> Discipline: pot CEL QUI
> Independent: Once each turn after completing combat, Jalal may burn 1
> blood to begin another combat with the opposing minion. (Blood
Cursed)
> Artist: Christopher Shy
 
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"Orpheus" <orpheus.13@DEADfree.fr> wrote in message
news:4230a524$0$16335$626a14ce@news.free.fr...
>- Do Baldesar or Black Cat reduce the cost of equipements when using the
>Pier 13 of Baltimore ?
>
I'm not LSJ, but I can quote him pretty good...

a Google Groups Search for: "Black Cat Pier, author:LSJ"

gave this:

LSJ Dec 10 2000, 5:20 pm
Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
From: LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> - Find messages by this author
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 01:15:03 GMT
Local: Sun, Dec 10 2000 5:15 pm
Subject: Re: Pier 13 Question

cantila <rogca...@student.luth.se> wrote:
> If Black Cat has the Pier, and gets an equipment through it does her
> special ability make it cost 1 less? It's not an equipping action, but her
> ability says:

> Ability: Equipping Black Cat costs 1 less pool (but never less than 0
> pool).

> And she is getitng equipped....so what does the rules say?


Since Black Cat's ability doesn't hinge on equipping via an action,
and since both Black Cat's ability and Pier 13 use the verb "equip",
Black Cat's ability will reduce the pool cost of the equipment.

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> - Of the following cards, which will protect from a Rötschrek and why :
> Elemental Stoicism, Chill of Oblivion, Skin of Night, Jalal's special ?
>
Jalal's special, only. It is the only one which continues combat... The
others are 'treat agg as normal' types, which is inadequate defense for
Rotschrek..

Regards,
DaveZ
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orpheus

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>>- Do Baldesar or Black Cat reduce the cost of equipements when using the
>>Pier 13 of Baltimore ?
>>
>
> I'm not LSJ, but I can quote him pretty good...
> Since Black Cat's ability doesn't hinge on equipping via an action,
> and since both Black Cat's ability and Pier 13 use the verb "equip",
> Black Cat's ability will reduce the pool cost of the equipment.

And what about Baldesar, then ? I know he can't reduce the cost of
disguised weapons...

And sorry, I meant Jalan Aajav (or Karsh !! :) Your answer would be : no
to his special too, then...
 

orpheus

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adam.hulse@ngc.com a écrit :
> I thought that Jalal has a built in Psyche! which I heard is a defense
> against Rotschrek. True? Not true?

True but not on-topic.

Thank you Scott.

Orpheus
 
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jeffkuta@pacbell.net wrote:
> Gregory Stuart Pettigrew wrote:
>>Correct, Jalal Sayad trumps Rotschreck (assuming he has blood to
> spend).

> I wouldn't say his special "trumps" Rotschreck. I think only Sire's
> Index Finger and Sudden Reversal have the capability to completely
> negate it.
>
> However, his Psyche!-like special does allow him to continue combat,
> and thus prevents the torporization part of Rotschreck, though he'll
> still suffer from the untap portion if applicable.

Correct.


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orpheus

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One more Q : that pesky "redirection" timing again :

A Giovanni bleeds ; Dis Pater is in play.

Gio says : do you redirect ?

Victim says : "Do you add bleed ?"

Gio says no.

Now is the timing window for Dis Pater.

Is there any way to add bleed after the "succesful bleed" is declared ?
Any way to deflect after that added bleed ? After the use of Dis Pater
is announced ? (I'd say "no" to both...).

TX

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Orpheus wrote:

> One more Q : that pesky "redirection" timing again :
>
> A Giovanni bleeds ; Dis Pater is in play.

[assumed, apparently: all blocks are declined]

> Gio says : do you redirect ?

Translation: Gio says "no mods at this time"

> Victim says : "Do you add bleed ?"

Translation: <nil> -- this is a non-question --
it is asking if the Gio passes, which he must have
done when asking for the redirect.

> Gio says no.

And then Victim says no and everyone else
passes on the opportunity to play effects
before the bleed is successful.

> Now is the timing window for Dis Pater.

Now the bleed is successful. Effects like Spying Mission,
Major Boon, and Dis Pater may be applied. Acting meth
goes first, so could choose Dis Pater, for example.

> Is there any way to add bleed after the "succesful bleed" is declared ?

Yes. Burning a Spying Mission in play, for example, or Dis Pater
(card text).

> Any way to deflect after that added bleed ?

No. Dis Pater has the same timing as Spying Mission (played)
and Major Boon.

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pat

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"LSJ" <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:RB5Yd.644$qW.80@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Orpheus wrote:
>
>> One more Q : that pesky "redirection" timing again :
>>
>> A Giovanni bleeds ; Dis Pater is in play.
>
> [assumed, apparently: all blocks are declined]
>
>> Gio says : do you redirect ?
>
> Translation: Gio says "no mods at this time"
>
>> Victim says : "Do you add bleed ?"
>
> Translation: <nil> -- this is a non-question --
> it is asking if the Gio passes, which he must have
> done when asking for the redirect.
>
>> Gio says no.
>
> And then Victim says no and everyone else
> passes on the opportunity to play effects
> before the bleed is successful.
>
>> Now is the timing window for Dis Pater.
>
> Now the bleed is successful. Effects like Spying Mission,
> Major Boon, and Dis Pater may be applied. Acting meth
> goes first, so could choose Dis Pater, for example.
>
>> Is there any way to add bleed after the "succesful bleed" is declared ?
>
> Yes. Burning a Spying Mission in play, for example, or Dis Pater
> (card text).
>
>> Any way to deflect after that added bleed ?
>
> No. Dis Pater has the same timing as Spying Mission (played)
> and Major Boon.
>
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> reply)
> Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
> http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
>

I get the Dis Pater & Spying Mission rulings, but Major Boon states that
"Modifiers to the bleed amount may be played after you play this card." That
would seem to imply that it's in an earlier window than Dis Pater or Major
Boon.

Or does the re-targeting of the bleed to the Meth playing Major Boon re-open
the window for bleed modifiers?

- Pat
 
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Pat wrote:
> I get the Dis Pater & Spying Mission rulings, but Major Boon states that
> "Modifiers to the bleed amount may be played after you play this card." That
> would seem to imply that it's in an earlier window than Dis Pater or Major
> Boon.

Card text: "is successfully bled."

Card text goes on to add a new window of opportunity for modifiers, as
you note above, which, as all explicit card text does, overrides the
basic rules.

> Or does the re-targeting of the bleed to the Meth playing Major Boon re-open
> the window for bleed modifiers?

Major Boon does not retarget the bleed.

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pat

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"LSJ" <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:QD7Yd.801$qf2.361@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Pat wrote:
>> I get the Dis Pater & Spying Mission rulings, but Major Boon states that
>> "Modifiers to the bleed amount may be played after you play this card."
>> That would seem to imply that it's in an earlier window than Dis Pater or
>> Major Boon.
>
> Card text: "is successfully bled."
>
> Card text goes on to add a new window of opportunity for modifiers, as
> you note above, which, as all explicit card text does, overrides the
> basic rules.
>

D'oh! Golden rule of cards! How could I have missed that? :)

>> Or does the re-targeting of the bleed to the Meth playing Major Boon
>> re-open the window for bleed modifiers?
>
> Major Boon does not retarget the bleed.
>

Hmm... sorry if it comes across like I'm channeling Eric Chiang, but the
lack of retargeting raises a few more questions:

- if the Original Target Meth [OTM] has 4 vampires in his ash heap and is
being bled cardlessly by merged Yong-Sun, would the Major Booning Meth [MBM]
burn 5? (Guessing "yes" here.)

- does the general term "modifiers" in card text include reaction cards to
reduce the bleed amount? If so, does the OTM or the MBM get to play them?
(No clue here.)

- assuming the bleed is indeed for 5, who gets to play Archon Investigation
to burn Yong-Sun Merged? OTM or MBM? Or does the OTM have to decline to play
AI before the MBM is allowed to play MB? (Since AI makes the bleed
unsuccessful.)

- assuming a bleed of 5, who gets to play Retribution to ping Yong-Sun
Merged? OTM or MBM?

Thanks in advance.

- Pat

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> reply)
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> http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
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Pat wrote:
> "LSJ" <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com> wrote in message
>>Major Boon does not retarget the bleed.
>
> Hmm... sorry if it comes across like I'm channeling Eric Chiang, but the
> lack of retargeting raises a few more questions:
>
> - if the Original Target Meth [OTM] has 4 vampires in his ash heap and is
> being bled cardlessly by merged Yong-Sun, would the Major Booning Meth [MBM]
> burn 5? (Guessing "yes" here.)

Yes.

> - does the general term "modifiers" in card text include reaction cards to
> reduce the bleed amount? If so, does the OTM or the MBM get to play them?
> (No clue here.)

OTM can play "when you are bled" modifiers (Telepathic Counter, etc.).
Anyone can play "when any Meth is bled" modifiers (superior Folderol, etc.)

> - assuming the bleed is indeed for 5, who gets to play Archon Investigation
> to burn Yong-Sun Merged? OTM or MBM? Or does the OTM have to decline to play
> AI before the MBM is allowed to play MB? (Since AI makes the bleed
> unsuccessful.)

The latter, but not with the "since". The "since" is "since the bleed is
already at resolution."

The only things allowed are changed to the bleed amount. No AI, redirection,
etc.

> - assuming a bleed of 5, who gets to play Retribution to ping Yong-Sun
> Merged? OTM or MBM?

Neither. OTM lost no pool, MBM wasn't bled.

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