News Modder Promises DLSS 3 Integration Early in 'Starfield'

[Admin]

A DLSS modder has promised to add DLSS 3 into Starfield early, assuming that Starfield's developers won't add Nvidia's upscaling tech to the game due to its ties with AMD.

Modder Promises DLSS 3 Integration Early in 'Starfield' : Read more

 

[Deleted member 2731765]

Well all know, it’s no secret that AMD and NVIDIA are doing their best to promote their upscaling techniques. Behind closed doors, these two teams sign deals with numerous developers so that they can implement their techs in their games. However, it appears that NVIDIA is more pro-consumer than AMD when it comes to these PC upscalers.

As NVIDIA told WCCFTech, it does not prevent developers from using different upscalers in its sponsored games.

“NVIDIA does not and will not block, restrict, discourage, or hinder developers from implementing competitor technologies in any way. We provide the support and tools for all game developers to easily integrate DLSS if they choose and even created NVIDIA Streamline to make it easier for game developers to add competitive technologies to their games.”

On the other hand, AMD dodged that question. And, since most AMD-sponsored games only have FSR and not DLSS, we can assume that something fishy is going on behind closed doors.

“AMD FidelityFX Super Resolution is an open-source technology that supports a variety of GPU architectures, including consoles and competitive solutions, and we believe an open approach that is broadly supported on multiple hardware platforms is the best approach that benefits developers and gamers. AMD is committed to doing what is best for game developers and gamers, and we give developers the flexibility to implement FSR into whichever games they choose.”

So, instead of improving its tech, AMD appears to be restricting developers from using NVIDIA’s tech. And since we are on the topic of FSR… where the heck is FSR 3.0? AMD’s answer to NVIDIA’s DLSS 3?

As WCCFtech noted, most of the NVIDIA-sponsored titles had DLSS and FSR support at or soon after launch. On the other hand, out of the 13 AMD-sponsored AAA games, only 3 of them received support for DLSS.

To be clear, NVIDIA has also done some shady stuff in the past. However, in this particular case, the green team is more pro-consumer than its rival.


PS: There is ZERO "fanboyism" in all my replies. I don't take any camp's side, be it AMD, NV, Intel, DELL, HP, or Apple. I just try to tell the basic facts and truth behind this gaming industry scene.

 

[Deleted member 2731765]

Honestly speaking, this seems like a bummer though.

Because based on the recent gameplay demos/videos shown, and also the 'Creation Engine 2' which this game is using, which is an enhanced version of the engine used in Bethesda’s previous games, Starfield seems likely to be a CPU-heavy game, so DLSS 3 would have been ideal for it.

For CPU-heavy/bound titles DLSS helps a lot ! AMD claims that the game will also be able to utilize multi-core CPUs.

But, the game does not appear to have any specific PC-only Ray Tracing effects. This is a missed opportunity as Starfield could really benefit from RTGI, RTAO and RT Shadows.

 

[-Fran-]

How ironic... DLSS is closed and proprietary and does not work on Intel or AMD with no real good reason. Hell, even Frame Generation doesn't work on anything from before RTX4K and people doesn't bat an eye eating all the BS nVidia said about it not being possible to backport.

Yes, it's bad these Developers don't include it, but this is BetaMax vs VHS again, LaserDisk vs DVD, HD-DVD vs BluRay.

Let the Company with the biggest pockets win, I guess. We all lose.

Regards.

 

[evdjj3j]

I thought NV said DLSS requires "training".

 

[RedBear87]

How ironic... DLSS is closed and proprietary and does not work on Intel or AMD with no real good reason. Hell, even Frame Generation doesn't work on anything from before RTX4K and people doesn't bat an eye eating all the BS nVidia said about it not being possible to backport.

Agreed on the irony, but it is ironic because AMD is so invested in open technology that, apparently, it will actively close its games to the solutions developed by others. I'm not really sure where you're getting the infos about DLSS and frame generation being possible to run on shaders without the usage of separate accelerators and without getting lower than native performance. I'm sure Tom's Hardware or any other outlet would love to look at the detailed documents about this conspiracy.

 

[-Fran-]

Agreed on the irony, but it is ironic because AMD is so invested in open technology that, apparently, it will actively close its games to the solutions developed by others. I'm not really sure where you're getting the infos about DLSS and frame generation being possible to run on shaders without the usage of separate accelerators and without getting lower than native performance. I'm sure Tom's Hardware or any other outlet would love to look at the detailed documents about this conspiracy.

How to phrase it... Let's see... You have ways to decode instructions and either emulate or translate instruction streams and make them work across different architectures. That's why you can have FP units process different kinds of floating point operations and decompose them. The fact DLSS "can't be ported" is a factual lie. I don't need documents to prove it. It's akin to someone saying you can't port a Super NES game to PC, because the SNES uses a completely different architecture than PC, but we all know how that went in the 90s.

Do I know exactly how to run DLSS on AMD or Intel hardware? No, I do not. Do I know if it is possible? Yes, I do.

If nVidia opens the DLSS as a spec anyone can follow and implement, you can bet AMD or Intel could run it if they wanted to. It's the same as PhysX back in the day when nVidia locked AMD GPUs from running just because and forced it to be "emulated" in the CPU instead.

Regards.

 

[NeoMorpheus]

I honestly dont get the issue here.

1- somehow, smart people here are conveniently ignoring that DLSS only works on SOME nvidia gpus, yet FSR works on AMD, Intel and Nvidia gpus, including GPUs that Dear Leader Jensen decided to leave out of their magical DLSS.

2- why aren you outraged that DLSS is actually turning PC gaming into a closed platform?

3- where were these modders when it was the other way around?

4- Lastly, theres this:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZmTqEJPSeE


At this point, I wish that AMD simply sold their GPU division and left us at the mercy of nvidia.

Hope you have enough money to buy your new 5050 RTX gpu that will have a msrp of US$2k...

 

[rluker5]

How ironic... DLSS is closed and proprietary and does not work on Intel or AMD with no real good reason. Hell, even Frame Generation doesn't work on anything from before RTX4K and people doesn't bat an eye eating all the BS nVidia said about it not being possible to backport.

Yes, it's bad these Developers don't include it, but this is BetaMax vs VHS again, LaserDisk vs DVD, HD-DVD vs BluRay.

Let the Company with the biggest pockets win, I guess. We all lose.

Regards.

DLSS is largely run on tensor cores that do many more, but simpler operations than a conventional GPU is capable of. A GPU without them might be able to do the same job but it would be so much slower it would be useless.
Intel tried to bring XeSS to their iGPUs that lack XMX cores (Intel's tensor version) but had to drastically tone it down so much that it looks like junk. It's a whole different version that can work on other hardware, but is inferior.
Maybe Intel Arc and Nvidia RTX could both use each other's matrix computed upscaling, because they both have significant matrix math processors, if they shared, but the other graphics cards without enough matrix units can't use the upscaling methods in a timely fashion because they simply lack the hardware.

The reason DLSS, XeSS and FSR2 can all work on the same games is because they all take a previous frame and motion data to upscale the current one. https://docs.unrealengine.com/5.2/en-US/temporal-upscalers-in-unreal-engine/ They are all temporal upscalers that can be all used in a game if any can. But they use different hardware so you can't just use an upscaler on mismatched hardware.

 

[Dr3ams]

The amount of Bethesda DLC and fan mods for this game will be epic.

...and I could care less about who is upscaling what, as long as my GPU can run the game.

 

[Sleepy_Hollowed]

I honestly dont get the issue here.

1- somehow, smart people here are conveniently ignoring that DLSS only works on SOME nvidia gpus, yet FSR works on AMD, Intel and Nvidia gpus, including GPUs that Dear Leader Jensen decided to leave out of their magical DLSS.

2- why aren you outraged that DLSS is actually turning PC gaming into a closed platform?

3- where were these modders when it was the other way around?

4- Lastly, theres this:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZmTqEJPSeE


At this point, I wish that AMD simply sold their GPU division and left us at the mercy of nvidia.

Hope you have enough money to buy your new 5050 RTX gpu that will have a msrp of US$2k...

You beat me to the punch.

I was legitimately wondering why even write this article when FSR is officially supported on all GPUs, and this should've been the opening line.

Absolutely wild DLSS is absolutely not needed unless people it want to feel special that their cores are using a specific type of mathematics.

 

[Sleepy_Hollowed]

DLSS is largely run on tensor cores that do many more, but simpler operations than a conventional GPU is capable of. A GPU without them might be able to do the same job but it would be so much slower it would be useless.
Intel tried to bring XeSS to their iGPUs that lack XMX cores (Intel's tensor version) but had to drastically tone it down so much that it looks like junk. It's a whole different version that can work on other hardware, but is inferior.
Maybe Intel Arc and Nvidia RTX could both use each other's matrix computed upscaling, because they both have significant matrix math processors, if they shared, but the other graphics cards without enough matrix units can't use the upscaling methods in a timely fashion because they simply lack the hardware.

The reason DLSS, XeSS and FSR2 can all work on the same games is because they all take a previous frame and motion data to upscale the current one. https://docs.unrealengine.com/5.2/en-US/temporal-upscalers-in-unreal-engine/ They are all temporal upscalers that can be all used in a game if any can. But they use different hardware so you can't just use an upscaler on mismatched hardware.

I'm at the point where I'm not touching nvidia proprietary hardware features unless it lasts more than 10 years.

I'm still mad at their 3d stuff, not to mention their gsync fiasco.

They just use it to extinguish the competition, or at least attempt that, and then stop any care for it.

Before you jump to AI applications justifications, I've got a strong feeling that if that's what makes them money, they'd be better served making a GPU comprised entirely of tensor cores (It already exists, the A series) and just further optimize it.

 

[HyperMatrix]

I honestly dont get the issue here.

1- somehow, smart people here are conveniently ignoring that DLSS only works on SOME nvidia gpus, yet FSR works on AMD, Intel and Nvidia gpus, including GPUs that Dear Leader Jensen decided to leave out of their magical DLSS.

2- why aren you outraged that DLSS is actually turning PC gaming into a closed platform?

3- where were these modders when it was the other way around?

4- Lastly, theres this:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZmTqEJPSeE


At this point, I wish that AMD simply sold their GPU division and left us at the mercy of nvidia.

Hope you have enough money to buy your new 5050 RTX gpu that will have a msrp of US$2k...

This video is completely flawed. You’re forgetting that DLSS also does imagine reconstruction. Making things like power lines or fences that otherwise wouldn’t be there clearly in native become visible. So part of the deviation from native image is expected and intended and is a good thing. Reducing shimmering around objects would also do the same thing. It “looks different” from the source so would score less. Because this was designed to compare encoder bit rate quality. Because when you re-encode a video, you want there to be as little difference as possible. That is absolutely not the case with image reconstruction.

 

[IamNotChatGpt]

Screw AMD if Starfield won't have DLSS at launch.
I hate this company with each passing month more and more man.

And the fanboys supporting them voluntarily holllly sh-. mentally insane.

 

[-Fran-]

Out of all this discussion, I think AMD and Intel better talk to Microsoft or Khronos and include them in the DirectX and Vulkan APIs as part of the spec, so there's a universal way to upscale if this is actually needed.

I'd imagine you can implement methods via the API that could have built-in upscaling for polygons, textures and such? Maybe it would be too complicated to add into the graphical APIs? It's an idea at least.

Regards.

 

[IamNotChatGpt]

Out of all this discussion, I think AMD and Intel better talk to Microsoft or Khronos and include them in the DirectX and Vulkan APIs as part of the spec, so there's a universal way to upscale if this is actually needed.

I'd imagine you can implement methods via the API that could have built-in upscaling for polygons, textures and such? Maybe it would be too complicated to add into the graphical APIs? It's an idea at least.

Regards.

This is purely AMD. Upscaling with both FSR and DLSS has been a thing for many years now. This is not something new or complicated, especially for a studio this size.

 

[-Fran-]

This is purely AMD. Upscaling with both FSR and DLSS has been a thing for many years now. This is not something new or complicated, especially for a studio this size.

And so was Glide3D with 3DFX back in the day. Then OpenGL and DirectX were born to compete and bring more broad compatibility for 3D rendering in PCs. If that wasn't adopted, then I'm not sure we'd have the pretty graphics we have now.

My point here is: no matter how annoying or painful it is for anyone to accept a Company using a perceived inferior tech, the fact that tech is available for all vendors to be used equally, makes it the superior pick 10 out of 10 times for consumers. Yes, it is annoying if it is true that AMD is not giving Devs the chance to use DLSS (this needs to be proven as it is a serious accusation with a potential of anti-trust lawsuits), but I sincerely don't care since all the people nVidia threw under the bus, including their own customers using older gens, can actually use upscaling with FSR (and XeSS).

Regards.

 

[AndrewJacksonZA]

I honestly dont get the issue here.

1- somehow, smart people here are conveniently ignoring that DLSS only works on SOME nvidia gpus, yet FSR works on AMD, Intel and Nvidia gpus, including GPUs that Dear Leader Jensen decided to leave out of their magical DLSS.

2- why aren you outraged that DLSS is actually turning PC gaming into a closed platform?

3- where were these modders when it was the other way around?

100%. Even XeSS works on all GPUs.

Screw AMD if Starfield won't have DLSS at launch.
I hate this company with each passing month more and more man.

And the fanboys supporting them voluntarily holllly sh-. mentally insane.

You just made me laugh, literally.

 

[rluker5]

100%. Even XeSS works on all GPUs.


You just made me laugh, literally.

XeSS DP4A =/= XeSS XMX, just like NIS =/= DLSS and FSR1 =/= FSR2.
HWunboxed tested it:

View: https://youtu.be/Gb53nUHV48I

Also FSR2 looks better on AMD hardware than Intel or Nvidia hardware. It also has less of a performance hit when using it on RDNA2 vs using it on Ampere or Arc. Still looks the worst though, and while I prefer DLSS and XeSS over native in some situations (due to better achievable image quality or having a reasonably quiet 3080), FSR2 is generally not worth it and I avoid using it.

The good version of XeSS only works on Arc because it was designed to use specific hardware. And even though Nvidia also has matrix cores they are off to the side instead of being integrated with the shaders in Arc's case so maybe even DLSS and XeSS XMX are incompatible due to hardware and not just a software lock.

What these upscaling methods do is different from the GPU+driver's perspective, but not from the game's perspective. If a game is compatible with temporal upscalers then it is currently compatible with all 3 brands.

If a game sponsored by one company can only use the upscaling method of that company it looks like locking out at least DLSS was part of the sponsorship deal. I'm pretty sure Bethesda and Nvidia have an open line of communication, and that Nvidia is willing to help implement DLSS in whatever AAA games they can.

 

[Dr3ams]

The carrot is DLSS and FSR, the stick would be a closed eco system where your purchased game will only work with one or the other. Luckily there is a third option. Don't enable either one...your game will still work without the carrots.

 

[NeoMorpheus]

You just made me laugh, literally.

Either he is trolling or worse, he is describing his own illness and somehow not realizing that he has the same symptoms.

 

[IamNotChatGpt]

100%. Even XeSS works on all GPUs.

Nobody asked about FSR and XeSS. DLSS is the topic. The implementation of DLSS nowadays is vastly easier than it was years ago. Independent of Nvidia devs.
Anyone who compares FSR to DLSS has no idea what they are talking about.

It's not even remotely the same. Both have their use cases. Both can co-exist.

You just made me laugh, literally.

You make no sense, literally

 

[IamNotChatGpt]

Either he is trolling or worse, he is describing his own illness and somehow not realizing that he has the same symptoms.

So you are implying that I am an Nvidia fanboy.

If you would actually go through my comments you can see that I insult Nvidia as well. The recent 4040 Ti is a perfect example of clown foolery at Nvidia Greed department. You can hate both companies at the same time right? It's no secret though that AMD has particularly bad fan boyism, which I don't understand but hey people protect Apple as if it's their PR job so...

Also it's funny how you assume I am a fan boy because I dislike AMD, it takes some really *special* nogin to get there... Can't be critical of companies anymore....

I can praise Nvidia for CUDA dev programming toolkit and RT/Optix and hate their pricing, cards at the same time. You should try it as well...

But saying made up things about others is easier right...

 

[NeoMorpheus]

So you are implying that I am an Nvidia fanboy.

If the shoe fits....
Lets roll the proof, in case..

Screw AMD if Starfield won't have DLSS at launch.

I hate this company with each passing month more and more man.

And the fanboys supporting them voluntarily holllly sh-. mentally insane.

I'm pretty sure that if I go thru your post history, I wont be able to do anything else today and might reach a character limit or something, so without further ado..