more Civ IV suggestions

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Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

Simple gameplay improvements.

1) Give us a way to upgrade all units of a type with vetran level or below
(ie. leave the elite units alone). Right now you either have to upgrade units
city by city or go hunt down the elite units and move them out of the units
before using Ctrl-U.

2) While negotating with another Civ provide a button that will automatically
calculate the minimum amount I need to pay to get the other civ to accept the
deal ? Right now, I ask them to suggest a deal and then manually try various
values to find the minimum.


Other wishlist,

3) being able to bribe other civs to go to war, without joining in myself.
(ie. war by proxy)

4) have an optional popup message when a civ changes their stance to me (say
from polite to annoyed, etc.)


Comments ?
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:05:10 +0530, data64 <me@privacy.net> wrote:

> 2) While negotating with another Civ provide a button that will automatically
> calculate the minimum amount I need to pay to get the other civ to accept the
> deal ? Right now, I ask them to suggest a deal and then manually try various
> values to find the minimum.

Listen to your advisor. He will let you know if your offer has no
chance, getting close, or a sure thing.

--
BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :)
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 13:05:10 +0530, data64 <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>Simple gameplay improvements.
>
>1) Give us a way to upgrade all units of a type with vetran level or below
>(ie. leave the elite units alone). Right now you either have to upgrade units
>city by city or go hunt down the elite units and move them out of the units
>before using Ctrl-U.

That would be nice, but I would at least like to have the ability to
upgrade units in an army whether or not I have to go back to the city
for upgrading units.


>
>2) While negotating with another Civ provide a button that will automatically
>calculate the minimum amount I need to pay to get the other civ to accept the
>deal ? Right now, I ask them to suggest a deal and then manually try various
>values to find the minimum.

Allow users to choose more messages to pass to AI to reveal attitude.
I am sometimes too busy to want to be bothered by AI asking to see me,
but I don't want to tick them off. Other times I want them to
understand that if they don't get their sorry !@#$ out of my territory
I will eliminate one of their cities.



>
>
>Other wishlist,
>
>3) being able to bribe other civs to go to war, without joining in myself.
> (ie. war by proxy)
>
I like that



>4) have an optional popup message when a civ changes their stance to me (say
>from polite to annoyed, etc.)
>
>
>Comments ?

Buck
--
For what it's worth.
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

Brent Geery <fasttimes@mochamail.com> wrote in
news:sojn41dpeo06ncvut1sno2ldg3pch9alod@4ax.com:

>
> Listen to your advisor. He will let you know if your offer has no
> chance, getting close, or a sure thing.
>
>

I know that. My point is I have to keep manually changing the values in my
offer which involves, deleting the current amount then adding a new value for
each amount that I try. I know that I try to make it more efficient by using
a binary search algorithm to figure out the optimal value but the point is
why not let the computer do that. I propose that there should be a button
which will automatically fill in the minimum the other civ will accept, since
the advisor obviously already knows this and gives feedback based on it.

data64
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:15:55 +0530, data64 <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>Brent Geery <fasttimes@mochamail.com> wrote in
>news:sojn41dpeo06ncvut1sno2ldg3pch9alod@4ax.com:
>
>>
>> Listen to your advisor. He will let you know if your offer has no
>> chance, getting close, or a sure thing.
>>
>>
>
>I know that. My point is I have to keep manually changing the values in my
>offer which involves, deleting the current amount then adding a new value for
>each amount that I try. I know that I try to make it more efficient by using
>a binary search algorithm to figure out the optimal value but the point is
>why not let the computer do that. I propose that there should be a button
>which will automatically fill in the minimum the other civ will accept, since
>the advisor obviously already knows this and gives feedback based on it.
>
>data64
at least have a "please make a counter offer" button.


Buck
--
For what it's worth.
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:15:55 +0530, data64 <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>Brent Geery <fasttimes@mochamail.com> wrote in
>news:sojn41dpeo06ncvut1sno2ldg3pch9alod@4ax.com:
>
>>
>> Listen to your advisor. He will let you know if your offer has no
>> chance, getting close, or a sure thing.
>>
>>
>
>I know that. My point is I have to keep manually changing the values in my
>offer which involves, deleting the current amount then adding a new value for
>each amount that I try. I know that I try to make it more efficient by using
>a binary search algorithm to figure out the optimal value but the point is
>why not let the computer do that. I propose that there should be a button
>which will automatically fill in the minimum the other civ will accept, since
>the advisor obviously already knows this and gives feedback based on it.

The shortcut for this is just to ask what they'll give you for the
deal. It isn't the cheapest amount, but it is a fair amount and is
usually pretty close.

When you change the terms of that deal, then you may need to work it
out as you say. But if there is anything other than gold on the table,
there is no longer a simple single-value search to find out which
combination of tech, resources, maps, gold, etc., is the minimum
possible offer.

Also, it would make just as much sense to ask for a maximum offer as
well, when selling. But as you might know, pushing the amount of the
deal off the "what will you offer" amount can "annoy" the AI, so it
can pay to accept less than the maximum/minimum which you could get.


--
*-__Jeffery Jones__________| *Starfire* |____________________-*
** Muskego WI Access Channel 14/25 <http://www.execpc.com/~jeffsj/mach7/>
*Starfire Design Studio* <http://www.starfiredesign.com/>
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

"data64" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:Xns962A851F2C253Data64privacynet@127.0.0.1...
> 3) being able to bribe other civs to go to war, without joining in
myself.
> (ie. war by proxy)

I have been successful when two civ's are on another continent other than
mine, to trade heavily with one, then offer the same civ Mutual Defense.
Invariably one of them will start a war and I wait for them to fight it
out and settle lost lands after they and I have signed a peace treaty.
Xeno
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

Another issue I have with Civ3 is when another civ threatens me with a
"give me this or else" threat I would like to be able to consult my
military adviser to be able to determine the seriousness of the threat;
but I can do nothing but respond to the message.

In fact, when there are lots of civs I may not even recall what color
that civ is and where they are located on the map. Also I may not know
if that civ has an alliance with some bigger and badder civ that is very
near to my civ.

So, I would like to be able to check with advisers and look at the map
before I respond to the threat.

I'd also like to be able to make a counter-offer instead of having to
reply with a yes or no.

It would be nice to be able to negotiate with some other civ(s) for a
mutual protection pact before responding to the civ that threatened me.

Another suggestion for Civ4 is that any civ would have to negotiate a
right of passage with me before they could enter my territory. I don't
like the way I have to continually threaten them and even then they just
keep trying to move through my territory. I recognize that a stronger
civ could always move through my area and for me to resist could mean
war; but it is annoying that, after they leave, they repeatedly come
back. They should not do that.

A third suggestion is regarding worker actions. I think that for
strategic resources a worker should have to build a worker-camp/mine in
order to obtain that resource (not just a road) and that to plunder that
location it doesn't eliminate the road; but eliminates the
worker-camp/mine.

Also, an enemy civ (ie, one that you are at war with) could station a
unit on a location and that action would effectively eliminate, the
owner civ's, access to the resource without having to actually destroy
the worker-camp/mine. Perhaps this action should be allowed for any
resource; not just strategic resources. This way stationing troops on a
location would eliminate access to food and thus could starve a city.
Having a grainery could have the effect of extending the time before the
city begins to loose population.
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

Jeffery S. Jones <jeffsj@execpc.com> wrote:

> The shortcut for this is just to ask what they'll give you for the
> deal. It isn't the cheapest amount, but it is a fair amount and is
> usually pretty close.

This doesn't always work. If you place goods on its side of the table, and
ask it to make an offer, then it will calculate a value (which isn't the
lowest it will accept). If the available goods on your side don't reach
that value, then it will say "I don't see how a deal can be done" *even if*
a deal can be done. (because you have more than the *minimum* it will
accept).

Sometimes the AI makes outrageous demands. This is because, having
calculated how much it wants, it chooses items from your side of the table
in this order: Tech, resources, maps, lump sum gold, per turn gold, until
its requirement is met or exceeded. This is why it sometimes demands a tech
for a 1gp territory map.

--
Daran

The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words;
on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them
unconscious and riffle their pockets for new vocabulary. -- James D. Nicoll
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

On Sat, 2 Apr 2005 00:27:28 +0100, Daran <daranSPAMg@lineone.net>
wrote:

>Jeffery S. Jones <jeffsj@execpc.com> wrote:
>
>> The shortcut for this is just to ask what they'll give you for the
>> deal. It isn't the cheapest amount, but it is a fair amount and is
>> usually pretty close.
>
>This doesn't always work. If you place goods on its side of the table, and
>ask it to make an offer, then it will calculate a value (which isn't the
>lowest it will accept). If the available goods on your side don't reach
>that value, then it will say "I don't see how a deal can be done" *even if*
>a deal can be done. (because you have more than the *minimum* it will
>accept).
>
>Sometimes the AI makes outrageous demands. This is because, having
>calculated how much it wants, it chooses items from your side of the table
>in this order: Tech, resources, maps, lump sum gold, per turn gold, until
>its requirement is met or exceeded. This is why it sometimes demands a tech
>for a 1gp territory map.

Yeah, I think that the negotiating process could be made more
flexible. How hard it would be to make the process smart -- so there
is little need to micromanage the exchange -- without removing player
decision-making I don't know. But it would be worth it, because the
game is strongly driven by trading and other interaction with the AI,
so making that part better would make the game more fun.

--
*-__Jeffery Jones__________| *Starfire* |____________________-*
** Muskego WI Access Channel 14/25 <http://www.execpc.com/~jeffsj/mach7/>
*Starfire Design Studio* <http://www.starfiredesign.com/>
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

On the 31 Mar 2005, data64 <me@privacy.net> wrote:

> Brent Geery <fasttimes@mochamail.com> wrote in
> news:sojn41dpeo06ncvut1sno2ldg3pch9alod@4ax.com:
>
> >
> > Listen to your advisor. He will let you know if your offer has no
> > chance, getting close, or a sure thing.
>
> I know that. My point is I have to keep manually changing the values in my
> offer which involves, deleting the current amount then adding a new value for
> each amount that I try.

Actually, it'd be nice to have buttons either side of the amount so you
can bump it up or down rather than the clickfest we have now. When you
compare the Civ 3 diplomacy screen with the flexibility of something
like the Transfer Bid screens of Football Manager 2005, it all looks a
bit primitive.

Don't get me wrong, I think that the diplomacy of Civ 3 is actually
very good, but it'd be nice if they give more thought to the UI for it
in Civ 4. I should spend more time thinking of the deal than I do
proposing it.

> I know that I try to make it more efficient by using a binary search
> algorithm to figure out the optimal value but the point is why not let
> the computer do that.

For me, the deal making is one of the most enjoyable parts of Civ 3. I
like the way that you have to work out what to offer by yourself. What
I don't like is how much effort it is to increment the gold elements
of my bids.

> I propose that there should be a button which will automatically fill in
> the minimum the other civ will accept, since the advisor obviously
> already knows this and gives feedback based on it.

IMO, this would remove a lot of the challenge of the game. In fact, if
the advisor got it right every time, you might as well just remove most
of the deal making and have the computer have it. More intelligent
hints would be a nice idea, though. At present, we aren't really told
why the CP would reject the deal. The game knows what's wrong with the
deal, so it should be possible to find a way to feed those answers back
in some way.

--
Jades' First Encounters Site - http://www.jades.org/ffe.htm
The best Frontier: First Encounters site on the Web.

nospam@jades.org /is/ a real email address!
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 14:27:26 GMT, Phil Pease <ppease5@mchsi.com>
wrote:

>Another issue I have with Civ3 is when another civ threatens me with a
>"give me this or else" threat I would like to be able to consult my
>military adviser to be able to determine the seriousness of the threat;
>but I can do nothing but respond to the message.
>
>In fact, when there are lots of civs I may not even recall what color
>that civ is and where they are located on the map. Also I may not know
>if that civ has an alliance with some bigger and badder civ that is very
>near to my civ.
>
>So, I would like to be able to check with advisers and look at the map
>before I respond to the threat.

Being able to check advisors there would be a help. I suspect that
this is an interface/programming issue, which could be worked out --
it happens during the AI turn, and the normal advisors all link (which
would let you take actions between turns).


>A third suggestion is regarding worker actions. I think that for
>strategic resources a worker should have to build a worker-camp/mine in
>order to obtain that resource (not just a road) and that to plunder that
>location it doesn't eliminate the road; but eliminates the
>worker-camp/mine.

Not a big deal in the later game, but it would slow down the early
game and require adjustment to deal with it.

>Also, an enemy civ (ie, one that you are at war with) could station a
>unit on a location and that action would effectively eliminate, the
>owner civ's, access to the resource without having to actually destroy
>the worker-camp/mine. Perhaps this action should be allowed for any
>resource; not just strategic resources. This way stationing troops on a
>location would eliminate access to food and thus could starve a city.
>Having a grainery could have the effect of extending the time before the
>city begins to loose population.

AFAIK, enemy units do interfere with resources and trade paths. You
can't work squares occupied by an enemy, and enemy units cut the trade
links -- effectively, occupied resource squares aren't available, and
if the road/sea trade path is occupied by the enemy, you can't use it
either.
--
*-__Jeffery Jones__________| *Starfire* |____________________-*
** Muskego WI Access Channel 14/25 <http://www.execpc.com/~jeffsj/mach7/>
*Starfire Design Studio* <http://www.starfiredesign.com/>
 
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