Most inaccurate CRs?

[Matthias]

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Out of the WOTC-published books with monsters in them, which monsters have the
most inaccurate CRs? What is it about each monster makes the CR too high or too
low for it?

--

Matthias (matthias_mls@yahoo.com)

"Scientists tend to do philosophy about as well as you'd expect philosophers to
do science, the difference being that at least the philosophers usually *know*
when they're out of their depth."
-Jeff Heikkinen

 

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Matthias wrote:
> Out of the WOTC-published books with monsters in them, which monsters
have the
> most inaccurate CRs? What is it about each monster makes the CR too
high or too
> low for it?
>

Dragons, too high. I think a lot of the Outsiders have problems one
way or the other. A lot of it is situational as well so many may
consider a particular creature overpowered and other may consider the
same creature under powered. Undead come to mind, a lot depends on
having a certain type of cleric in the party.

- Justisaur

 

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Not so much CR, but I think some ECLs are too high. If one were to
play a non-core race, I think it should be possible in some cases to
start off with 1 class HD like everyone else instead of the more than
one they get just because that's what the monster manual says. Gnoll
PCs, for example, don't really need to start off with 2d8 hit points
and no class. Let there be a 1HD 10 hit points + CON 1st level gnoll
fighter and be done with it.

Hound archons also have too high an ECL. I know they have out of the
ordinary abilities and thus a plain 1st class level hit points just
wouldn't work. However, +5 is still too high. To play a hound archon
is to start at the equivalent of 11th level with only 6d8 hit points.
That is too few hit points for the given level. The closest comparison
is a wizard with 11d4. However, a hound archon does not have the
equivalent power of an 11th level wizard. From a powergame
perspective, I would always choose the 11th level wizard over the hound
archon. Given the other classes which would have more hit points, and
the hound archon becomes irrelevant. If they must start at 6d8 hit
points, let them come in at 6th level. Since they are CR 4, then four
4th level characters could "take it". Putting it in a party of four
6th level characters should then be just fine, fair and balanced. When
everyone reaches 7th level, the hound archon can take 1st level in a
class.

Gerald Katz

 

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"Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1112648894.977757.268330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Matthias wrote:
>> Out of the WOTC-published books with monsters in them, which monsters
> have the
>> most inaccurate CRs? What is it about each monster makes the CR too
> high or too
>> low for it?
>>
>
> Dragons, too high.

To *high*?!? I was about to say, "Dragons, too *low*." That is especially
true if you use the Draconomicon feats for them.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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"Hadsil" <forumite@netzero.com> wrote in message
news:1112673997.000235.149680@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Not so much CR, but I think some ECLs are too high.

Many are *way* too high. I usually use Soldarin's ECL calculator. One of
the more stupid assumptions the game makes (and Soldarin does not) is "a
monster level is a monster level". This is simply absurd. Compare a level
of Outsider or Dragon to a level of Fey sometime.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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Hadsil wrote:

> Not so much CR, but I think some ECLs are too high. If one were to
> play a non-core race, I think it should be possible in some cases to
> start off with 1 class HD like everyone else instead of the more than
> one they get just because that's what the monster manual says. Gnoll
> PCs, for example, don't really need to start off with 2d8 hit points
> and no class. Let there be a 1HD 10 hit points + CON 1st level gnoll
> fighter and be done with it.
>
> Hound archons also have too high an ECL. I know they have out of the
> ordinary abilities and thus a plain 1st class level hit points just
> wouldn't work. However, +5 is still too high. To play a hound archon
> is to start at the equivalent of 11th level with only 6d8 hit points.
> That is too few hit points for the given level. The closest comparison
> is a wizard with 11d4. However, a hound archon does not have the
> equivalent power of an 11th level wizard. From a powergame
> perspective, I would always choose the 11th level wizard over the hound
> archon. Given the other classes which would have more hit points, and
> the hound archon becomes irrelevant. If they must start at 6d8 hit
> points, let them come in at 6th level. Since they are CR 4, then four
> 4th level characters could "take it". Putting it in a party of four
> 6th level characters should then be just fine, fair and balanced. When
> everyone reaches 7th level, the hound archon can take 1st level in a
> class.
>
> Gerald Katz

I agree with you in principle, but remember that the Hound Archon's 6
hit dice are in Outsider, which is superior to any PC class.

- Ron ^*^

 

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Malachias Invictus wrote:
> "Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1112648894.977757.268330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Matthias wrote:
> >> Out of the WOTC-published books with monsters in them, which
monsters
> > have the
> >> most inaccurate CRs? What is it about each monster makes the CR
too
> > high or too
> >> low for it?
> >>
> >
> > Dragons, too high.
>
> To *high*?!? I was about to say, "Dragons, too *low*." That is
especially
> true if you use the Draconomicon feats for them.

I meant dragons are too high for thier CR.

I assume you mean the same thing, Dragon's CR is too low?

- Justisaur

 

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Malachias Invictus wrote:
> "Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1112648894.977757.268330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Matthias wrote:
> >> Out of the WOTC-published books with monsters in them, which
monsters
> > have the
> >> most inaccurate CRs? What is it about each monster makes the CR
too
> > high or too
> >> low for it?
> >>
> >
> > Dragons, too high.
>
> To *high*?!? I was about to say, "Dragons, too *low*." That is
especially
> true if you use the Draconomicon feats for them.

I second that, though it's not too bad. Elementals also seem a bit
strong for their CR.

Also, IMHO most grappletastic monsters have ridiculously low CRs. I've
had a level 7 (!) party have trouble with Ankhegs and Assassin Vines,
both CR 3 nasties.

Also, humanoids almost invariably have too low CRs. A level 10 NPC is
simply not (normally) a CR 10 challenge.

Laszlo

 

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laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
> Malachias Invictus wrote:
> > "Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1112648894.977757.268330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > >
> > > Matthias wrote:
> > >> Out of the WOTC-published books with monsters in them, which
> monsters
> > > have the
> > >> most inaccurate CRs? What is it about each monster makes the CR
> too
> > > high or too
> > >> low for it?
> > >>
> > >
> > > Dragons, too high.
> >
> > To *high*?!? I was about to say, "Dragons, too *low*." That is
> especially
> > true if you use the Draconomicon feats for them.
>
> I second that, though it's not too bad. Elementals also seem a bit
> strong for their CR.
>
> Also, IMHO most grappletastic monsters have ridiculously low CRs.
I've
> had a level 7 (!) party have trouble with Ankhegs and Assassin Vines,
> both CR 3 nasties.
>

I'll have to 2nd that. Most 'improved grapple' monsters seem a bit
more nasty than thier equal counterparts. Doubly so if they can fly.

"Hey I managed my escape artist check, but now I'm 200' up in the air
with nothing keeping me up here!"


> Also, humanoids almost invariably have too low CRs. A level 10 NPC is
> simply not (normally) a CR 10 challenge.

If you mean NPC classed (warrior, commoner, adept, expert, noble) then
I'd agree. I believe the concensus is about at 1/2 for everything
execpt commoner which is about 1/4. If you mean humanoid NPCs with PC
classes, I'd disagree.

 

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How about if I said they were too hard? (IYKWIM AITYD)

- Justisaur

 

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"Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1112723607.830017.17130@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Malachias Invictus wrote:
>> "Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1112648894.977757.268330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > Matthias wrote:
>> >> Out of the WOTC-published books with monsters in them, which
> monsters
>> > have the
>> >> most inaccurate CRs? What is it about each monster makes the CR
> too
>> > high or too
>> >> low for it?
>> >>
>> >
>> > Dragons, too high.
>>
>> To *high*?!? I was about to say, "Dragons, too *low*." That is
> especially
>> true if you use the Draconomicon feats for them.
>
> I meant dragons are too high for thier CR.
>
> I assume you mean the same thing, Dragon's CR is too low?

Yeah, that. Talking past each other? On Usenet? Unheard of!

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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Justisaur wrote:
> Malachias Invictus wrote:
>
>>"Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:1112648894.977757.268330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

>>>Dragons, too high.
>>
>>To *high*?!? I was about to say, "Dragons, too *low*." That is
>> especially true if you use the Draconomicon feats for them.
>
> I meant dragons are too high for thier CR.

You mean dragons are too *powerful* for their CR. Altitude's got
nothing to do with it.

-Will "unless you mean they're toked up" Green

 

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Werebat wrote:
> Hadsil wrote:
>
> > Not so much CR, but I think some ECLs are too high. If one were to
> > play a non-core race, I think it should be possible in some cases
to
> > start off with 1 class HD like everyone else instead of the more
than
> > one they get just because that's what the monster manual says.
Gnoll
> > PCs, for example, don't really need to start off with 2d8 hit
points
> > and no class. Let there be a 1HD 10 hit points + CON 1st level
gnoll
> > fighter and be done with it.
> >
> > Hound archons also have too high an ECL. I know they have out of
the
> > ordinary abilities and thus a plain 1st class level hit points just
> > wouldn't work. However, +5 is still too high. To play a hound
archon
> > is to start at the equivalent of 11th level with only 6d8 hit
points.
> > That is too few hit points for the given level. The closest
comparison
> > is a wizard with 11d4. However, a hound archon does not have the
> > equivalent power of an 11th level wizard. From a powergame
> > perspective, I would always choose the 11th level wizard over the
hound
> > archon. Given the other classes which would have more hit points,
and
> > the hound archon becomes irrelevant. If they must start at 6d8 hit
> > points, let them come in at 6th level. Since they are CR 4, then
four
> > 4th level characters could "take it". Putting it in a party of
four
> > 6th level characters should then be just fine, fair and balanced.
When
> > everyone reaches 7th level, the hound archon can take 1st level in
a
> > class.
> >
> > Gerald Katz
>
> I agree with you in principle, but remember that the Hound Archon's 6

> hit dice are in Outsider, which is superior to any PC class.
>
> - Ron ^*^

It doesn't matter why they have 6d8 hit points; that's still not enough
for an 11th level adventure. As an Outsider the Hound Archon would be
immune to a lot of spells, such as Charm Person. By the same token,
they are also "immune" to Raise Dead and Resurrection. Should the
player's Hound Archon be killed, he can't come back barring a
"miracle". Maybe an ECL of some kind is still warranted, but the hound
archon should not be coming in at 11th level, certainly not as a cohort
for a 13th level paladin let's say. I could see an ECL of +2 because
even though the will save vs their aura is relatively low, it is a
constant effect along with their magic circle against evil. A hound
archon in an 8th level adventure can probably do alright. It would be
suitable as a cohort for the paladin taking Leadership at 9th level,
which I just realized coincidentally is where they appear for 9th level
spellcasters in Summon Monster V.

Gerald Katz

 

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Will Green <will_j_green@yXaXhXoXoX.com> wrote in
news:77F4e.21273$kM1.5237@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com:

> Justisaur wrote:
>> Malachias Invictus wrote:
>>
>>>"Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:1112648894.977757.268330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>>>>Dragons, too high.
>>>
>>>To *high*?!? I was about to say, "Dragons, too *low*." That is
>>> especially true if you use the Draconomicon feats for them.
>>
>> I meant dragons are too high for thier CR.
>
> You mean dragons are too *powerful* for their CR. Altitude's got
> nothing to do with it.
>
> -Will "unless you mean they're toked up" Green
>
Well, many of 'em do emit toxic vapors.

--
Terry Austin
www.hyperbooks.com
Campaign Cartographer now available

 

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tussock wrote:
>
> > Hound archons also have too high an ECL. I know they have out of
the
> > ordinary abilities and thus a plain 1st class level hit points just
> > wouldn't work. However, +5 is still too high. To play a hound
archon
> > is to start at the equivalent of 11th level with only 6d8 hit
points.
>
> With +2 Con, and /Aid/ at will for an extra 1d8+6 per fight, not
to
> mention the DR 10/Evil.
>
> > That is too few hit points for the given level. The closest
comparison
> > is a wizard with 11d4. However, a hound archon does not have the
> > equivalent power of an 11th level wizard.
>
> /Greater Teleport/ (self only) at will is pretty damn powerful,
> Dire Wolf form is handy enough for battle with the right feats, or
just
> stack up the Str and use weapon, and bite.
> Tank up to suit the +9 natural armour and the only real things
the
> character is vulnerable to is one round damage-spell kills (less so
than
> a Sor or Wiz), or a /Blasphemy/.
>
> > From a powergame perspective, I would always choose the 11th level
> > wizard over the hound archon. Given the other classes which would
> > have more hit points, and the hound archon becomes irrelevant.
>
> Powergamers are _supposed_ to choose single class humans, that's

> the way the rules are balanced; everything else is weaker.
>
> > If they must start at 6d8 hit points, let them come in at 6th
level.
> > Since they are CR 4, then four 4th level characters could "take
it".
>
> Ha! They're CR 5 with elite stats, but no 5th level party has
the
> means to kill a hound archon that doesn't want to be killed.
>
> > Putting it in a party of four 6th level characters should then be
just
> > fine, fair and balanced. When everyone reaches 7th level, the
hound
> > archon can take 1st level in a class.
>
> They'd start with Warrior level BAB, Rogue level skills, some
> powers of a mid-high level Wizard, great stats, DR 10/Evil, and +9
> natural armour. April fools day was a few days ago mate, I'm not
falling
> for it.
>
> --
> tussock
>
> Aspie at work, sorry in advance.

Okay then, Hound Archon is too good to start in with a 6th level party.
I still think 11th level is too high. I'm settling for 9th level as
an opinion for where it should be. It's where spellcasters can summon
them. It's a good place for paladins or other lawful good heroes to
take Leadership for a cohort.

Gerald Katz

 

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Hadsil wrote:
> Not so much CR, but I think some ECLs are too high. If one were to
> play a non-core race, I think it should be possible in some cases to
> start off with 1 class HD like everyone else instead of the more than
> one they get just because that's what the monster manual says. Gnoll
> PCs, for example, don't really need to start off with 2d8 hit points
> and no class. Let there be a 1HD 10 hit points + CON 1st level gnoll
> fighter and be done with it.

Much better to let them drop 1 monster HD in exchange for their
first class level, as part of being elite. Dropping all their HD for
class levels isn't usually too bad (exchange skill points and hit
points, keep the powers and LA).
Most *do* need to start with the right number of HD in total
though; or go the Savage Species way and make it a class of it's own.

> Hound archons also have too high an ECL. I know they have out of the
> ordinary abilities and thus a plain 1st class level hit points just
> wouldn't work. However, +5 is still too high. To play a hound archon
> is to start at the equivalent of 11th level with only 6d8 hit points.

With +2 Con, and /Aid/ at will for an extra 1d8+6 per fight, not to
mention the DR 10/Evil.

> That is too few hit points for the given level. The closest comparison
> is a wizard with 11d4. However, a hound archon does not have the
> equivalent power of an 11th level wizard.

/Greater Teleport/ (self only) at will is pretty damn powerful,
Dire Wolf form is handy enough for battle with the right feats, or just
stack up the Str and use weapon, and bite.
Tank up to suit the +9 natural armour and the only real things the
character is vulnerable to is one round damage-spell kills (less so than
a Sor or Wiz), or a /Blasphemy/.

> From a powergame perspective, I would always choose the 11th level
> wizard over the hound archon. Given the other classes which would
> have more hit points, and the hound archon becomes irrelevant.

Powergamers are _supposed_ to choose single class humans, that's
the way the rules are balanced; everything else is weaker.

> If they must start at 6d8 hit points, let them come in at 6th level.
> Since they are CR 4, then four 4th level characters could "take it".

Ha! They're CR 5 with elite stats, but no 5th level party has the
means to kill a hound archon that doesn't want to be killed.

> Putting it in a party of four 6th level characters should then be just
> fine, fair and balanced. When everyone reaches 7th level, the hound
> archon can take 1st level in a class.

They'd start with Warrior level BAB, Rogue level skills, some
powers of a mid-high level Wizard, great stats, DR 10/Evil, and +9
natural armour. April fools day was a few days ago mate, I'm not falling
for it.

--
tussock

Aspie at work, sorry in advance.

 

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<laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu> wrote in message
news:1112724581.724624.155650@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Malachias Invictus wrote:
>> "Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1112648894.977757.268330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > Matthias wrote:
>> >> Out of the WOTC-published books with monsters in them, which
> monsters
>> > have the
>> >> most inaccurate CRs? What is it about each monster makes the CR
> too
>> > high or too
>> >> low for it?
>> >>
>> >
>> > Dragons, too high.
>>
>> To *high*?!? I was about to say, "Dragons, too *low*." That is
> especially
>> true if you use the Draconomicon feats for them.
>
> I second that, though it's not too bad.

Someone here once suggested the following adjustments to Dragon CR:

If the CR is 1-4, double it; if it is 5 or higher, add 4. That seems to
work out pretty well, especially if you are using the Draconomicon.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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Hadsil wrote:
> It doesn't matter why [hound archons] have 6d8 hit points; that's
> still not enough for an 11th level adventure ....

Hound archons also have +2 Con, which is worth another Hit Die or two.
Furthermore, they have DR 10/evil, SR 16, and immunity to electricity.
So while they will have significantly fewer hit points than an
11th-level fighter, they'll also take significantly less damage.
Overall, it comes out about even, maybe even in favor of the archon.

Moral of the story: Don't make snap judgments based on just one stat.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

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"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
news:slrnd5761h.5em.bradd+news@szonye.com...
> Hadsil wrote:
>> It doesn't matter why [hound archons] have 6d8 hit points; that's
>> still not enough for an 11th level adventure ....
>
> Hound archons also have +2 Con, which is worth another Hit Die or two.
> Furthermore, they have DR 10/evil, SR 16, and immunity to electricity.
> So while they will have significantly fewer hit points than an
> 11th-level fighter, they'll also take significantly less damage.
> Overall, it comes out about even, maybe even in favor of the archon.

Archons are not too bad on the taking damage end (although SR 16 is about as
effective as tissue paper at that level). They don't deal damage out very
effectively, though. Of course, once you give them 4 Outsider levels and
they advance to Large size, they are much more effective, as the Strength
increase makes up for the relatively low BAB, and the Constitution increase
makes up for the low hit points. They have a good amount of abilities, good
skill points, and decent saves. Over all, they are just about right.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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On 5 Apr 2005 11:09:41 -0700, laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu carved upon
a tablet of ether:

> I second that, though it's not too bad. Elementals also seem a bit
> strong for their CR.

They do? Every time I've seen an elemental in play it's died very
easily for it's supposed CR. OTOH I've never seen one bigger than
'large', so maybe it's the big ones that are too powerful.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 00:39:15 -0700, "Malachias Invictus"
> <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
> > Someone here once suggested the following adjustments to Dragon CR:
> >
> > If the CR is 1-4, double it; if it is 5 or higher, add 4. That
seems to
> > work out pretty well, especially if you are using the Draconomicon.
>
> IME, not using the Draconomicon, dragons in the CR8-12 range are
about
> right, and certainly not more than CR +1-2 higher than they should
be.
> The game I ran had the party meet, and fight, 4-5 dragons in that
> range and they didn't seem any tougher than I expected.

I think it depends on situation and conditions of engagement.

In a dungeon they are fine at listed CR IMAO.

Against a fully preped party in the open they are about right
also. (Although I have seen the "did anyone load some extra
arrows in the bag of holding? I'm out.", way to often to consider
this trivial.)

Put the DRAGON on a clock and it gets weaker. Don't notice that
it senses the party coming well before contact and casts it's
mage armor spell and it's noticably weaker.

IME if it is a dark night and the engagement is outside a smart
dragon is MUCH more powerful than CR would indicate, quite likely
a TPK vs. an equal level fresh party. It has better, longer range
senses that the party, and hence is only in sight during flyovers
to breath (or whatever).

It's smart enough to recognize who is dangerous and kill him first,
or to pull back to wait out spell durations.

Fly in from out of range, breath, next round flyby attack with a
bite on the way out, your reach exceeds that of most fighters so
all they get is bowshots (especially since if the party is not
all using ranged weapons you have no reason at all to come in
for the followup melee attack).

The problem is a dragon is fairly good at EVERYTHING, it has an
area ranged attack, it is fast (few things are faster), good
senses (quite possibly the best in the game), lots of HP, a
really powerful melee attack, fair AC, all saves are good, SR,
a deadly full attack, it flys, it casts spells, it has more
lots of skill points/HD, and it has lots of HD for those good
saves and skill points to add up, ...

If you catch a dragon where much of this isn't aplicable (like
a typical dungeon room) it goes down without excessive trouble,
if it can take advantage of the ability synergies (fly and breath;
spells and melee; flyby, reach, and melee;...) it starts getting
deadly for the CR.

DougL

 

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The Tendriculous is a CR 6 I think...way too low for this planty
killer...DR, regeneration, grapple etc.

Also, I just read a CR 5 creature from the MM3, A Bone Claw. Undead,
100+ hp, 20' reach, It struck me as more powerful then a 5 from the
reading.

Most animals (Dire / legendary are too low IMO. the Grapple /
constrict / rend type combos are mean if concentrated on a single PC

Rich

 

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Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
> Hadsil wrote:
> > It doesn't matter why [hound archons] have 6d8 hit points; that's
> > still not enough for an 11th level adventure ....
>
> Hound archons also have +2 Con, which is worth another Hit Die or
two.
> Furthermore, they have DR 10/evil, SR 16, and immunity to
electricity.
> So while they will have significantly fewer hit points than an
> 11th-level fighter, they'll also take significantly less damage.
> Overall, it comes out about even, maybe even in favor of the archon.
>
> Moral of the story: Don't make snap judgments based on just one stat.
> --
> Bradd W. Szonye
> http://www.szonye.com/bradd

Dwarves also get +2 Con, and they're +0. SR 16 gets trivial. Drow
have spell resistance and they're only +2. Immunity to electricity is
nothing a cleric or wizard can't mimic with a 2nd or 3rd level spell.
DR 10/evil does mean something; hence I would agree that starting the
hound archon at 6th level probably isn't a good idea after all. I
think its +5 ECL is high, but that doesn't mean it has to be +0 either.
I still say 9th level is a good start, i.e. +3 ECL.

Gerald Katz

 

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In article <1112743969.800671.170820@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:
>I'll have to 2nd that. Most 'improved grapple' monsters seem a bit
>more nasty than thier equal counterparts. Doubly so if they can fly.
>
>"Hey I managed my escape artist check, but now I'm 200' up in the air
>with nothing keeping me up here!"

I'd be inclined to let the "escape" mean you'd climbed out of its talons onto
its leg. Still not a great place to be, but it lets you jump off just before
the dragon gets to its mountain, and prevents it from deciding to drop you.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)

 

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On 6 Apr 2005 21:35:57 -0700, "Hadsil" <forumite@netzero.com> scribed into
the ether:

>
>Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
>> Hadsil wrote:
>> > It doesn't matter why [hound archons] have 6d8 hit points; that's
>> > still not enough for an 11th level adventure ....
>>
>> Hound archons also have +2 Con, which is worth another Hit Die or
>two.
>> Furthermore, they have DR 10/evil, SR 16, and immunity to
>electricity.
>> So while they will have significantly fewer hit points than an
>> 11th-level fighter, they'll also take significantly less damage.
>> Overall, it comes out about even, maybe even in favor of the archon.
>>
>> Moral of the story: Don't make snap judgments based on just one stat.
>> --
>> Bradd W. Szonye
>> http://www.szonye.com/bradd
>
>Dwarves also get +2 Con, and they're +0.

Dwarves get -2 cha and are 10 feet per round slower than a normal medium
creature. Their con bonus doesn't exist in a vaccuum.

> SR 16 gets trivial. Drow have spell resistance and they're only +2.

Plus all the basic elven traits (except weapon proficiencies) and innate
spell-like abilities, and a racial save bonus, and darkvision...

SR16 is 50% immunity to incoming magic vs even level opponents at level 6.
Prior to that, it is even better. That's some heady stuff there.

> I think its +5 ECL is high, but that doesn't mean it has to be +0 either.
> I still say 9th level is a good start, i.e. +3 ECL.

Seems fairly decent, since Hound Archons really come with few (any?)
mechanical drawbacks, and a giant pile of bonuses. If you really play up
the alignment side, and have a game world with a lot of persecution towards
non-core races (a walking, talking, glowing man-dog would certainly
qualify) then those would be fairly significant.