Question Motherboard For Ryzen 3xxx

[DefinitelyNotTom]

ok, I am no way going to get a motherboard with a whining fan, so the x570 is out.

I thought well no problem I'll just use an x470 or b450 (I have a b450 bought and can still return it).

Well.... if I am reading correctly, to use a b450 or x470 for ryzen 3xxx, you must ALREADY HAVE a previous ryzen cpu set up with it in order to update the BIOS???

I am strongly considering backing out of selling my 2700x and just going ahead and building and forgetting that I am missing out on 3xxx.

I am already so tired of waiting for them to release the new cpus and it now confirmed none will be out before July... I sure don't want to wait even LONGER for b450 and x470 mobos on the market to have the latest firmware. Even the 2700x was already going to be overkill for my usage. Maybe I should cancel the sale and pretend 3700x won't exist?

Note: If I do build with 3700x, I'd almost surely be out close to $200 extra, as well. So deal with the hassle and pay $200 just to know I got the better hardware or keep what I have, save the money, still have more than I need.

 

[DefinitelyNotTom]

M2_1 is the PCIe 3.0 slot. Yes, you can boot from it.

that's right. thanks. Iv'e been so confused because on the newegg site it talks about m2_2 first, so I got mixed up and thought it was m2_1.

yeah so I think I am 99% sure I'll just go with that mobo and forget doing an itx or matx build. It's the only one of the msi mobos on the flash bios list that has 2 m2 slots (or, well, the only 4xx one that is affordable).

I originally had that asrock fatal1ty x470 and bought an asus wireless adaptor. After all fees I had to pay when selling it I think I'll be out around $60 extra by getting this msi board, which is only a b450, but then I can sell the asus wireless adaptor too and probably get around $25-$30 after fees. So I am pretty happy with my choices honestly. Especially since I don't OC so don't need some high end x470 or x570. The x570 would allow both ssds to be at their best, but no big deal really.

So now when the cpus release my only decisions left would just be 3700x vs 3800x and a monitor...

 

[DefinitelyNotTom]

here's a quick realllllly off topic question. does a hdd spin and make noise if not being currently accessed? I wasn't going to put a HDD in at all, just to cut down on noise, but if it only does so when in use, I could put one in as an emergency in case I need the space.

I've stressed myself big time over all of these decisions....

 

[TJ Hooker]

In power settings you can set the HDD to stop spinning after X minutes of inactivity.

 

[drea.drechsler]

....

But don't you think they'd keep pumping out the b450s since the b550 is so far off?

...

With X570 boards so expensive both X470 and B450 should continue to see high demand. If Zen2 lives up to what was demo'd it deserves a premium platform like X570, but it would be silly to stop shipping them in the face of that. AMD still needs a value offering as they are far, far, far away from being able to use Intel's monopolistic tactics.

Only rumors so far but B550 is supposedly going to offer PCIe gen 3 only, even so an upgrade from current gen 2. I suppose the motherboard could still support the CPU's gen 4 lanes to the x16 GPU slot(even though even gen 3 is uneeded in 98% of cases), x4 NVME and the x4 link to the chipset itself.

What we don't know, of course, is just how many compromises will be needed to keep mfg. cost down. It would be sad to lose what is being touted as extremely good memory topology that allows very easy memory overclocking to very high speeds... like some say, upwards of 5Ghz.

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/asmedia-pcie-4.0-amd-x570-b550-a520,39652.html

 

[DefinitelyNotTom]

Here's another thing that annoys me. People say just get RAM from a QVL and it's oh so easy.... yeah well the QVL for that msi board lists VERSION numbers on kits, so you can't even know when you order a kit online if it's on the QVL or not, as they go as far as making you get the exact version number on that kit.

I have Samsung b die, but it's not on the list. There is a corsair kit on sale for $160 for 32gb which IS on the list, but I'd have no idea which version number would be sent or if anyone would buy my current kit I have sitting here.

 

[TJ Hooker]

Weird, I think that's the first time I've seen reference to "version number" on a QVL list. And it's only for Corsair RAM for some reason.

 

[drea.drechsler]

Why not just use the b die you have and worry about upgrading it when you see what you have?

Qpl,s are unreliable imho any way. Especially for 3rd gen cpu,s

 

[DefinitelyNotTom]

Weird, I think that's the first time I've seen reference to "version number" on a QVL list. And it's only for Corsair RAM for some reason.

yeah, I know. Odd. I read somewhere somehting about Corsair switching around what they use in a kit, if I am not mistaken, so maybe some kits with the same model numbers can be different?

Why not just use the b die you have and worry about upgrading it when you see what you have?

Qpl,s are unreliable imho any way. Especially for 3rd gen cpu,s

well, I am thinking about it, but it's mighty tempting to be more sure by buying a kit from the QVL when it's that cheap ($165 for 32gb). My concern is I'll try mine, it ill be crazy bad like not going above 2133, and then I'm going to gt less money reselling it, due to it being opened.

On the flip side, I kind of doubt RAM sells for much more on ebay when sealed, anyway...

 

[TJ Hooker]

Keep in mind that the rated memory speed for Ryzen 3k is now 3200 MHz, and I think AMD has said something to the effect that they tried a number of kits up to 4 GHz or higher and they had no trouble getting then working with just enabling the profile.

I don't think you need to worry about being stuck at 2133 just because it's not on the QVL list.

 

[DefinitelyNotTom]

Keep in mind that the rated memory speed for Ryzen 3k is now 3200 MHz, and I think AMD has said something to the effect that they tried a number of kits up to 4 GHz or higher and they had no trouble getting then working with just enabling the profile.

I don't think you need to worry about being stuck at 2133 just because it's not on the QVL list.

Speaking of that, I really wish I could get a higher speed one, sicne ryzen 3 handles so much. HOWEVER, I honestly have been dumb to get as good pf parts as I have. I am using an ancient pc right now, with 4gb RAM, and until recently 99% of the time it seems fast for my uses. I went overboard on parts in case I do 4k video editing or gaming, which either one would be rare, though. But I probably should stop aiming at higher and higher still.

I also feel like I better preorder the cpu whenever they are up... The people waiting for reviews must have forgotten when 8th gen intel came out and stores price gouged for literally 3 or 4 months before you could get one at MSRP. With hype about ryzen 3, I bet people will end up out $100+ above MSRP if they don't preorder.

 

[drea.drechsler]

....
I also feel like I better preorder the cpu whenever they are up... The people waiting for reviews must have forgotten when 8th gen intel came out and stores price gouged for literally 3 or 4 months before you could get one at MSRP. With hype about ryzen 3, I bet people will end up out $100+ above MSRP if they don't preorder.

I agree with most people who are saying do NOT pre-order and the reasons are sound.

Firstly: wait for reviews to tell you how to maximize performance of this processor. They are extremely informative.

Secondly: AMD processors do not hold the dominant marketplace position that Intel's do. I don't believe AMD can afford the marketplace manipulations Intel manages to get away with, e.g., withholding product to inflame passionate demand.

AMD needs to continue building market share as quickly as possible so R3K won't sell at a premium above MSRP for any length of time, if at all. And even then it would be the 12 core, and later the 16 core when it comes out, that would get this treatment since they may come in short supply as AMD will surely fill Rome demand for high-performing chiplets first.

Last: With this third generation of Ryzen processor going up against their stagnant product line, Intel may not be able to pivot very well at the top end this time. But in the middle they surely can and so I think they will put some price pressure on R5 and R7 which will make AMD drop prices... as they always do to remain the value leader there.

 

[DefinitelyNotTom]

I agree with most people who are saying do NOT pre-order and the reasons are sound.

Firstly: wait for reviews to tell you how to maximize performance of this processor. They are extremely informative.

Secondly: AMD processors do not hold the dominant marketplace position that Intel's do. I don't believe AMD can afford the marketplace manipulations Intel manages to get away with, e.g., withholding product to inflame passionate demand.

AMD needs to continue building market share as quickly as possible so R3K won't sell at a premium above MSRP for any length of time, if at all. And even then it would be the 12 core, and later the 16 core when it comes out, that would get this treatment since they may come in short supply as AMD will surely fill Rome demand for high-performing chiplets first.

Last: With this third generation of Ryzen processor going up against their stagnant product line, Intel may not be able to pivot very well at the top end this time. But in the middle they surely can and so I think they will put some price pressure on R5 and R7 which will make AMD drop prices... as they always do to remain the value leader there.

That's your opinion that it will end up that way, but just as possible is that supply is scarce and people are screwed over. I don't have the luxury of waiting months to see if they do a price drop. I MUST build in july. I started buying parts 2 years ago because of my pc having issues and it can't last much longer.

If I were just casually deciding to build a pc and in no hurry, it would be different. But I flat can't wait more months. Poeple are already mocking me for not having built now and got mad at me for not "just going ahead and building with 2700x" this close to ryzen 3xxx release.

No way MSRP goes down before intel 10th gen, so it would be at least 3 months. Also, I am considering the 12 core, so if that's one low in quantities it could affect me. Even though I'll likely NOT go that high, though.

My guess is Amazon will probably have a deal on at least ONE of them for Prime Day, but who knows which one. Otherwise, we'll have a long wait to get them for under MSRP.

 

[TJ Hooker]

I think as long as you pre-order from somewhere with a good return policy you'll be fine. Hopefully you can pre-order and then hold off from opening it until some reviews come out at which point you can decide whether to keep it. If not, you can return it and get a 2700X or something, which shouldn't have any issues with availability.

Another benefit of the wait and see approach is hopefully there'll be some info on how the new 12 core CPUs run on various boards. The 12 core has the same TDP as the 2700X so in theory it shouldn't be any harder to run, but I just can't help but be a little wary of running a 12 core CPU on a 4 phase motherboard like the B450 Pro Carbon. I don't know what your use case is that you need a 12 core CPU, but if the 105W stock TDP is true then I can't help but think the all core boost under heavy load is going to be a lot lower than the max boost lock listed.

 

[drea.drechsler]

I can't believe AMD'd go to market with scarce supply when one of their major goals has to be to increase market share.

Zen 2 is a great improvement over what they had before but all this really does is bring AMD's processors to effective IPC parity (better in many cases, but not quite as good in others). Intel's already putting pressure on with announced price cuts, but there will be more to come I'm sure. The real advantage is with cores/threads and AMD will do what they have to to keep taking back market share.

If you're going for the 3900X then I'm sure it will be no worse than a 2700X (in a not very likely worst case scenario)...but firing on 4 more cores/8 more threads. And based on peoples response, I do believe it will be the launch processor in highest demand.

 

[DefinitelyNotTom]

I just don't see how you can't believe they'd release it in scarce supply, but you can imagine them releasing a $499 cpu that may not be much better than the 2700x or questionable whether it would be better at all. I mean if it's not much better than the 2700x, they might as well not release it at all.

We can't really assume much of anything when they shockingly have now lost their entire value per performance edge. Nobody saw that coming, where the tech for the new mobos has to be such to where intel is now cheaper for equal performance. To expect people to spend that on mobos they should have been having the 3700x level price for the 12 core. So apparently AMD doesn't care about being the value pick anymore and I can't see them cutting much into intel. Why spend more for amd when even amd's own stats, which are likely exaggerated, have the cpus right around the same performance as intel, for higher prices?

Anyway, so the bottom line is SURELY they aren't "that" dumb to where any of these cpus will be only at or below 2700x level. But who knows... The only question, assuming that is the case, is which 3xxx cpu to get. I'd probably indeed preorder form somewhere that has a good return policy, but sadly that leaves Newegg out, who has a pathetic no refund policy on cpus.

 

[TJ Hooker]

We can't really assume much of anything when they shockingly have now lost their entire value per performance edge. Nobody saw that coming, where the tech flor the new mobos has to be such to where intel is now cheaper for equal performance. To expect people to spend that on mobos they should have been having the 3700x level price for the 12 core. So apparently AMD doesn't care about being the value pick anymore and I can't see them cutting much into intel. Why spend more for amd when even amd's own stats, which are likely exaggerated, have the cpus right aroudn the same performance as intel, for higher prices?

Uh, $500 for the CPU + $200-300 for the motherboard is still the best value you can get for a 12 core CPU, and way cheaper than a 12 core Intel system.

 

[DefinitelyNotTom]

Uh, $500 for the CPU + $200-300 for the motherboard is still the best value you can get for a 12 core CPU, and way cheaper than a 12 core Intel system.

I wasn't meaning the 12 core. I was meaning in general, since they didn't up the core count for the mainstream, ie r5 and r7 ones. So they're going to cost more, with motherboard, than intel ones of the same level now, as the intel ones are constantly on sale. And no matter what intel does, AMD can't just lower their prices 2 weeks after release. They'd wait for months.

Also, he was saying we don't know if the 12 core will be better than the 2700x. If it weren't better than the 2700x, then having 12 cores would be irrelevant and it would have to still be compared to the intel 8 core cpus.

Other than that, yes it makes sense to wait and see how the 12 core will behave on old mobos and which of the new mobos is the most ideal oen to buy, BUT not everyone can wait much longer. And AMD did claim that the cpus will all perform equally on b450, x470, x570.

edit: also it remains to be seen if you can even get a decent mobo for $200-$300 if you buy an x570. Even some entry level ones are near the top of those ranges. Someone told me several are going to be around $200, but I think i'd be scared to get an entry level x570, as it will probably perform worse than a midrange b450.

 

[drea.drechsler]

...And no matter what intel does, AMD can't just lower their prices 2 weeks after release. They'd wait for months....

.... but I think i'd be scared to get an entry level x570, as it will probably perform worse than a midrange b450.

The question isn't whether there will be discounts or lowered prices on the just released processors... but whether demand is so high there will be gouging and premiums to be paid. That gets increasingly doubtful in the face of Intel's lowering of prices that incentivize Intel fans to stay in the fold.

Also, even entry level X570 boards get the high grade board material, more layers and enhanced trace path layout required to enable PCIe gen 4. So the performance will be there, just the gee-whiz features (like whole- board heatsinks and extreme over-kill true 12 phase VRM's, needed only for extreme overclocking on LN2) will be reduced or missing.

 

[DefinitelyNotTom]

The question isn't whether there will be discounts or lowered prices on the just released processors... but whether demand is so high there will be gouging and premiums to be paid. That gets increasingly doubtful in the face of Intel's lowering of prices that incentivize Intel fans to stay in the fold.

Also, even entry level X570 boards get the high grade board material, more layers and enhanced trace path layout required to enable PCIe gen 4. So the performance will be there, just the gee-whiz features (like whole- board heatsinks and extreme over-kill true 12 phase VRM's, needed only for extreme overclocking on LN2) will be reduced or missing.

there's no way to know for sure, though, how the supply will be. I can't risk getting stuck and then my current pc stopping working.

I just want a mobo not likely to fail and preferably it having wifi and not end up with issues. I care zero about rgb and OC potential, etc.... But it looks like most of the $200 mobos are going to be gigabyte... which ahs had terrible reviews of late on their mobos and asus TUF, which people make fun of each year and mock and it gets low ratings, as well.

Has there been confirmation that most mobos won't have those annoying chipset fans runnig if you don't use RAID on the ssds?

I've really gotta get this all figured out before I let the msi b450 stop being produced and then wish I had gone that direction. I mean if the $200 x570 boards work well enough, I'd kind of hate toi pay $140 for a b450 instead... But on the flip side I'd hate to spend $200 and then it be no betetr than the $140 mobo outside of pcie 4 adding bandwidth.

 

[DefinitelyNotTom]

If I do get an x570, I'd lean towards the msi edge wifi, as it will be around $200, havce wifi, audio is the same 1220 as many now have, etc... May be worth $200 to get one. Just wouldn't pay much more vs. the $140 the msi b450 is.

If only Newegg would do a combo deal with it right off the bat... I'd be happy. They usually do their early combo deals with msi boards, I think.

 

[DefinitelyNotTom]

sigh. right when I am back to considering an x570, I remember people saying not only are chipset fans loud, but they are known for failing very quickly. I don't need that headache, so may be forced to get the b450...

 

[drea.drechsler]

sigh. right when I am back to considering an x570, ....

Setting aside the super-duper extreme overclocking features many have just remember THE benefit of X570 derives from the board's superior construction. That is: it allows PCIe gen 4 and memory speeds up to a (demonstrated) 5GTps. So unless you have some Gen 4 NVME's and a super high-end memory kit to go with it, it just makes no sense. At all. To me, at least.

And BTW: real-world viability and benefit of BOTH super-high speed memory AND gen 4 NVME is yet to be tested. That's the reason people say to not pre-order but to give some time to allow independent reviewers to do those tests and identify the sweet spots to avoid overspending.

I am 95% confident that chipset fans will turn out to be a complete non-issue due to the way they are supposed to operate. But that's something else we'll learn with those early reviews.

 

[DefinitelyNotTom]

Setting aside the super-duper extreme overclocking features many have just remember THE benefit of X570 derives from the board's superior construction. That is: it allows PCIe gen 4 and memory speeds up to a (demonstrated) 5GTps. So unless you have some Gen 4 NVME's and a super high-end memory kit to go with it, it just makes no sense. At all. To me, at least.

And BTW: real-world viability and benefit of BOTH super-high speed memory AND gen 4 NVME is yet to be tested. That's the reason people say to not pre-order but to give some time to allow independent reviewers to do those tests and identify the sweet spots to avoid overspending.

I am 95% confident that chipset fans will turn out to be a complete non-issue due to the way they are supposed to operate. But that's something else we'll learn with those early reviews.

the thing is, though, I'm the type who lets a pc last almost until it finally breaks. So futureproofing is one reason to consider it and also I have 2 nvme ssds so that msi b450 will limit the second to pcie 2.0x4 whereas an x570 would allow it to be at its full 3.0x4. But then again, that would only make a few seconds difference on transfer times in most c ases.

Also I se a ton of 3600 32gb kits from g.skill for $135-$150! But they are 19 latency. I guess the high latency would offset gains I'd get to go ther3 from my 3200 latency 15 one?

 

[drea.drechsler]

the thing is, though, I'm the type who lets a pc last almost until it finally breaks. So futureproofing is one reason to consider it ...

I was just wondering how long PCIe gen 4 will even last as Intel (you know, the elephant in the room that always commands attention when it moves) is reported to be releasing it's next CPU's with gen 5.... and the PCIe group is finalizing gen 6 already.

Not that any of it really matters because nobody noticed that most of the world is still quite happily using gen 2 and oblivious to gen 3 even when they have it.

I have both a gen 3 x4 NVME and a gen 2 X4 NVME in my system. Synthetic benchmarks (Crystal DiskMark in particular) is the only way I can tell the difference... in use they 'feel' identical.

 

[DefinitelyNotTom]

I was just wondering how long PCIe gen 4 will even last as Intel (you know, the elephant in the room that always commands attention when it moves) is reported to be releasing it's next CPU's with gen 5.... and the PCIe group is finalizing gen 6 already.

Not that any of it really matters because nobody noticed that most of the world is still quite happily using gen 2 and oblivious to gen 3 even when they have it.

I have both a gen 3 x4 NVME and a gen 2 X4 NVME in my system. Synthetic benchmarks (Crystal DiskMark in particular) is the only way I can tell the difference... in use they 'feel' identical.

yeah, really anyone needing above the 4GB/s of gen 3 would have to be using it for a business where every second counts, ie hardly anyone. For me the only thing about the x570 I am interested in is the extra bandwidth itself. Like I said, then I can run 2 or even 3 ssds at 3.0x4. but worth paying about $70 more and having to have that stupid chipset fan? Doubt it. If I knew the chipset fan would not EVER come on when not using RAID for ssds, I'd definitely go x570, though, as I assume the fan wouldn't break soon if it's not even being used.