Question Motherboard For Ryzen 3xxx

[DefinitelyNotTom]

ok, I am no way going to get a motherboard with a whining fan, so the x570 is out.

I thought well no problem I'll just use an x470 or b450 (I have a b450 bought and can still return it).

Well.... if I am reading correctly, to use a b450 or x470 for ryzen 3xxx, you must ALREADY HAVE a previous ryzen cpu set up with it in order to update the BIOS???

I am strongly considering backing out of selling my 2700x and just going ahead and building and forgetting that I am missing out on 3xxx.

I am already so tired of waiting for them to release the new cpus and it now confirmed none will be out before July... I sure don't want to wait even LONGER for b450 and x470 mobos on the market to have the latest firmware. Even the 2700x was already going to be overkill for my usage. Maybe I should cancel the sale and pretend 3700x won't exist?

Note: If I do build with 3700x, I'd almost surely be out close to $200 extra, as well. So deal with the hassle and pay $200 just to know I got the better hardware or keep what I have, save the money, still have more than I need.

 

[DefinitelyNotTom]

At which point do we actually commit to buying anything given the rate of development of CPU's recently. That is to say, by the time 4700x hits the shelves, a newer X-chip will be just on the horizon.

I'm only upgrading because my I3 - 6100 and gtx980 is starting to show it's age. Whether it's a 3600, 3700 or 3900, it will still be an effective upgrade.

yeah, I finally decided I had to buy because my pc is so close to falling apart. If you mentioned that because of me mentioning 4700x above, though, that was a typo. 3700x*.

Btw, someone I talk to who has a gigabyte x570 said the fan isn't nearly as bad as was feared and he doesn't really here it, I think. But still... I don't really think I should spend the extra for an x570. Eh although.... part of why I got the b450 I got was because of the audio being good for mobo audio.... what I could have done is got that sound blaster with my $100 of deal and then got an x570 without having to care about the audio on it!

 

[spacejunk]

The thing about the 570 that concerns me apart from the active chipset cooler, is that it requires extra cooling in the first place. Supposedly the extra heat is due to PCIE 4.0 which requires the extra power. Since I and probably many other users won't even benefit (at all) from PCIE 4.0, I don't see the merit of buying into the platform. It has been said that we would need GPU's twice as powerful as the 2080ti just to necessitate the use of PCIE 4.0 and I doubt the 3000 series cards are going to be that powerful.

So apart from NVME applications, when are we expected to make use of PCIE 4.0 ?

That's good to hear at least some anecdotal feedback on the cooler noise. Did you ask him under what conditions the system is running when he did the listening test ? I was just thinking how likely it is that he has other loud components that drown out the noise, along with not running the system at high loads.

BTW did you have to pay to get your B450 flashed ? It sucks but I have to pay the retailer to flash the Msi x470 pro gaming Carbon before it gets shipped.

 

[DefinitelyNotTom]

The thing about the 570 that concerns me apart from the active chipset cooler, is that it requires extra cooling in the first place. Supposedly the extra heat is due to PCIE 4.0 which requires the extra power. Since I and probably many other users won't even benefit (at all) from PCIE 4.0, I don't see the merit of buying into the platform. It has been said that we would need GPU's twice as powerful as the 2080ti just to necessitate the use of PCIE 4.0 and I doubt the 3000 series cards are going to be that powerful.

So apart from NVME applications, when are we expected to make use of PCIE 4.0 ?

That's good to hear at least some anecdotal feedback on the cooler noise. Did you ask him under what conditions the system is running when he did the listening test ? I was just thinking how likely it is that he has other loud components that drown out the noise, along with not running the system at high loads.

BTW did you have to pay to get your B450 flashed ? It sucks but I have to pay the retailer to flash the Msi x470 pro gaming Carbon before it gets shipped.

I haven't opened it or flashed it yet, but it has a "flashback" feature where you can press abutton to update the BIOS with no cpu needed. Mine is the b450 pro carbon. Oddly, they didn't add that feature to the pro carbon x470. Even though the b450 is technically the budget line, though, it's listed quite nicely on the VRM tiers (well, plus I don't OC, anyway... although I'd maybe do some automatic OCing).

What i really "wanted" was the asus b450-i itx one, but I'd have had to figure out how tp update that one and I don't have a microcenter in my state, so not sure who i could get to do it. Maybe some computer repair shop or something? I got a good deal on one, too.... $120., But had to return it.

I forgot to mention that the guy who has the gigabyte mobo told me it's also not using a crazy amount of power like reports have said others have. He's tested a lot with the 3700x on it and seems knowledgeable, so I doubt he's the type who just haphazardly does things and overlooks issues and whatnot. All that said, I still am likely to keep a b450 instead, though.

I don't know if you saw my previous posts about why pcie 4 could "slightly" help me or not, but it's that I have 2 nvme ssds and no 4xxx mobo can handle 2 ssds at pcie 3.0x4 AND a gpu at x16. They either gimp the gpu to x8 or they gimp the second ssd to 2.0x4 or they gimp the second ssd to 3.0x2. Meanwhile, even though they aren't pcie 4 ssds, the extra bandwidth of the pcie 4 on the 5xxx mobods means both ssds can run at 3.0x4 and the gpu at x16 and in fact even a third ssd at 3.0x4.

But..... it would be about pointless to spend that extra money just to speed up my second ssd, I think. Even 2.0x4 is fast enough for the write speed of my second ssd. it would just slow the read speed down.... but that doesn't matter on a secondary ssd, anyway.

 

[spacejunk]

Ahh yeah, I was looking for a 470 with that Flash-back feature, but no luck finding it on a model I wanted. It's pretty much imperative that the board supports 8 x sata, though I would prefer to have 12 or more. I'm bummed that the B450, has only 6 x sata, otherwise I would have chosen it too. It appears that the 470 boards are selling really quickly now. Some good models like the Crosshair VII aren't even available anymore over here.

Does your friend actually have a reliable way of telling how much power the board is using ? I was using that previous video for reference which was showing essentially double the power consumption (200w average vs 410w average) While those results are evidently using different setups, I don't see how or why he would fake those power figures. Maybe it's too early to even find reliable benchmarks for 570, but you have to admit if those figures are correct then it is a major cause for concern. My PC is always on 24/7 so this worries me.

Regards the NVME speeds, I agree, the bandwidth allocation of NVME's to me is a pretty weak selling point, even if I owned one. I don't even use my sata SSD for games. I've never had any trouble running games on performance HDD's. And if I did want to play games from SSD I'd need to spend several thousand dollars to fit half my games on them. I've installed some games on my system SSD and did not even notice the difference, so I have little interest in NVME storage at this point, let-alone trying to beef the bandwidth on them even more.

If you find any reliable info on the 570's power consumption please do share. I'm putting this order through as soon as the EVGA 2070S is stocked which is apparently 3 days. Hopefully I learn more stuff before that happens.

 

[spacejunk]

Found an interesting video on the 570's power consumption. It was observed that the extra draw isn't from the number of PCIE 4.0 devices but rather a static draw on the chipset, which could still point toward PCIE 4.0 integration.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=931&v=qk3PD-4zPN0

 

[DefinitelyNotTom]

I'm not sure yet what all he did testing power usage, but I think he told what it was, so I assume he measured it somehow.

Now check this out. I see MSIs site already lists a b450 tomahawk max.... But it doesn't list a b450 pro carbon max and the pro carbon still shows as a beta for its latest BIOS! This will be so fun sitting here for who knows how long waiting on them to either get the new BIOS out or the MAX version of the mobo out.

Even if they get the BIOS working, shouldn't I still return it and get the max version when it comes out, just in case FUTURE BIOS changes are made which the 16mb BIOPS chip may not be able to handle? We may end up in a situation where down the road they truly have no room left for new fixes or features, whereas the max ones would be fine with double the space, at least.

 

[DefinitelyNotTom]

Still not sure what to do here... MSI with the stupid BETA, other manufacturers giving us now ay to know if we're buying the updated mobos, and x570 so expensive.

I could get that pro carbon x570 where someone said you can't hear the fan and I've gotten a lot of amazon credits related to prime day... But still i'd be out over $80 extra to go from my current mobo to that one. Can't decide if it's worth almost $100 to do that. specially with people saying the whole power draw issue is happening on x570 mobos.

 

[drea.drechsler]

Still not sure what to do here... MSI with the stupid BETA, other manufacturers giving us now ay to know if we're buying the updated mobos, and x570 so expensive.
....

Nothing new here. Everybody's having problems... I was reading on AnandTech where some Asus boards are popping WHEA errors with Samsung NVME's and corrupting windows 10 system files. Let's not even dwell on what's happening with Nvidia drivers.

Being an early adopter is lots of fun, truely a science experiment. Just keep a build/test log so you can tell everyone how you overcame your travails when all is said and done.

EDIT add... and another choice is to sell your processor and get a 2700x for the mobo. Still a great performer, with stable BIOS ready to go, and fabulous discounts right now. You'll save yourself a lot of early adopter heartache... but probably have to act fast before they're all gone.

 

[DefinitelyNotTom]

Nothing new here. Everybody's having problems... I was reading on AnandTech where some Asus boards are popping WHEA errors with Samsung NVME's and corrupting windows 10 system files. Let's not even dwell on what's happening with Nvidia drivers.

Being an early adopter is lots of fun, truely a science experiment. Just keep a build/test log so you can tell everyone how you overcame your travails when all is said and done.

EDIT add... and another choice is to sell your processor and get a 2700x for the mobo. Still a great performer, with stable BIOS ready to go, and fabulous discounts right now. You'll save yourself a lot of early adopter heartache... but probably have to act fast before they're all gone.

yeah I saw it for $199, but the problem there is people say even the 3600 is better than it for aame price.

ok I watched the gamersnexus video and found out that there are THREE x570 mklobos under $200 that they said are "too" good, in that there's no reason to buy any that cost between $200-$300 because those others are so good.

So I am considering them. asus x570 tuf with wifi and gigabyte x570 elite and asus x570-p.

The gigabyte has intel lan, but no wifi.

The tuf has wifi, but Realtek lan.

The p has neither wifi NOR intel lan, but I do have an asus wifi card I was going to sell, but would keep if I bought that $169 x570-p.

So it comes down to whether or not the fan is a big deal and whether or not the relaltek lan is truly noticeable as being worse than the intel.

He also said my b450 pro carbon is great, BUT I still see so many stories about sisues duer to that small bios chip.

I have a lot of credits form amazon prime day deals, so any of those mobos would be like they are the same price, almost, as I spent on the b450, due to credits knocking down what I'd really be paying.

edit: only one in stock is the gigabyte, but when researching I see 4 out of 4 people who commented on the fan on it said when setting it to silent mode, it's been no issue at all. I didn't really want gigabyte, as I have heard bad thigns, but I am tempted now and then won't have the headache of updating the msi with a beta bios... and would still have intel lan. Would just have to add my own wifi card is all.

 

[drea.drechsler]

yeah I saw it for $199, but the problem there is people say even the 3600 is better than it for aame price.

...

Yah... but you really seem to be stressing yourself too much. Made me a bit nervous about long gap in posts there.

That 2700x is sooo cheap now. A sane strategy (vs running out and buying an expensive X570 with it's own early adopter tax) is just hold onto the Ry3k you bought and wait out the new architecture's teething problems while using the 2700 in your new rig to stave off the certain tragedy should your current rig finally collapse. When AMD finally gets the AGESA probems sorted, and MSI gets the new GSELite BIOS in shape, you'll be set to make the step up in the processing world.

X570 is not worth the money. That's clearly it's worst negative, not the chipset fan that can be simply turned off in BIOS if you wanted. No normal user will appreciate the faster read and write speeds (of gen4 NVME) except to be wowed by synthetic benchmarks.

ADDed.... I'm reading about the b450m Mortar. Most users who've burned the BIOS with AGESA 1.0.0.3ab are having pretty good results. The rest, when reading what they've done, I have to wonder how much is self-inflicted. At any rate, updating my Mortar is my only upgrade path option so that's in my future no matter what.

 

[DefinitelyNotTom]

Yah... but you really seem to be stressing yourself too much. Made me a bit nervous about long gap in posts there.

That 2700x is sooo cheap now. A sane strategy (vs running out and buying an expensive X570 with it's own early adopter tax) is just hold onto the Ry3k you bought and wait out the new architecture's teething problems while using the 2700 in your new rig to stave off the certain tragedy should your current rig finally collapse. When AMD finally gets the AGESA probems sorted, and MSI gets the new GSELite BIOS in shape, you'll be set to make the step up in the processing world.

X570 is not worth the money. That's clearly it's worst negative, not the chipset fan that can be simply turned off in BIOS if you wanted. No normal user will appreciate the faster read and write speeds (of gen4 NVME) except to be wowed by synthetic benchmarks.

ADDed.... I'm reading about the b450m Mortar. Most users who've burned the BIOS with AGESA 1.0.0.3ab are having pretty good results. The rest, when reading what they've done, I have to wonder how much is self-inflicted. At any rate, updating my Mortar is my only upgrade path option so that's in my future no matter what.

The reasons for the x570 are 1. it's too much of an ordeal trusting msi with the b450s now, sicne they dumbly ended up with this beta situation. 2,down the line, there may be more use for pcie 4. 3. i'd be out almost the same price as I am out for the b450, since I got all these amazon credits to use now.

I don't want to switch out a cpu, so can't sit with the 2700. Would have to either keep using my ancient pc or build with 3xxx.

The only thing holding me back now is people going on and on about how there is now ay a chipset fan will last for more than 5-6 years. People say the sound is no big deal, so I am only worried about longevity now.

Also, many say they don't want wifi on a desktop, but I have to have it because I got an odyssey+ headset, which needs Bluetooth...

Anyway…. so the main reason FOR getting an x570 is I am worried about trusting msi now. The main reason AGAINST is chipset fan longevity. I think the x570 mobos I mentioned have better VRM than the b450 pro carbon, as well.

Btw, were you the one who told me about b450 mortar? Did you see msi has a b450 mortar max now listed on their site? Other than Realtek for its lan it looks interesting.

 

[drea.drechsler]

....
Btw, were you the one who told me about b450 mortar? Did you see msi has a b450 mortar max now listed on their site? Other than Realtek for its lan it looks interesting.

Yep. But I have the B450 Mortar v1 already. MSI on reddit has said they'll be dropping BIOS updates every Friday. Everybody's having problems...but apparently MSI had a little bit different problem with making the new AGESA (which apparently is HUGE from AMD) fit with their UEFI on the BIOS chip. Consequently they had to trim out the GUI and publish it as a Lite version, text only, which pissed off the kids who never had to deal with text BIOS screens. Still has all the functionality, but like any new BIOS it has it's own teething problems going right along with the AGESA probems.

MSI's getting a lot more attention because they had...have...the best VRM's on B450 and were extremely popular. Mortars sold out in the US and people have been importing them, for instance (something tells me they may not sell MortarMax in the USA). Lots more boards sold, lots more novices befuddled with early adopter issues. Sad tale oft told.

MSI's lack of forthright information and assurances they're working things doesn't help, of course.

 

[DefinitelyNotTom]

Yep. But I have the B450 Mortar v1 already. MSI on reddit has said they'll be dropping BIOS updates every Friday. Everybody's having problems...but apparently MSI had a little bit different problem with making the new AGESA (which apparently is HUGE from AMD) fit with their UEFI on the BIOS chip. Consequently they had to trim out the GUI and publish it as a Lite version, text only, which pissed off the kids who never had to deal with text BIOS screens. Still has all the functionality, but like any new BIOS it has it's own teething problems going right along with the AGESA probems.

MSI's getting a lot more attention because they had...have...the best VRM's on B450 and were extremely popular. Mortars sold out in the US and people have been importing them, for instance (something tells me they may not sell MortarMax in the USA). Lots more boards sold, lots more novices befuddled with early adopter issues. Sad tale oft told.

MSI's lack of forthright information and assurances they're working things doesn't help, of course.

I keep thinking I make a decision then something else comes out to make me not know. After reading that the chipset fans are no problem, I see person after person saying the gigabyte and asus oens ARE bad. But they said that not long after launch and I do know gigabyte put out a BIOS update, so maybe they're better now?

And then supposedly msi are bigger, thus quieter, but the gamersnexus guy didn't seem impressed with any msi x570.

o I just can't decide keep the msi and wait out their issues or buy a gigabyte and hope the fan isn't bad. Maybe I should stick with the b450... but someone told me it's a "no brainer" to get the x570 since I have credits to knock it down tio the same price the b450 was.

 

[drea.drechsler]

...
And then supposedly msi are bigger, thus quieter, but the gamersnexus guy didn't seem impressed with any msi x570.
...

I'm not either. It's like Asus and MSI each looked at their X470/B450 VRM's and said 'hmm...what can we do different'. Only Asus improved (to the point of extreme overkill, at least for current Ry3k processors) and MSI turned theirs to mush.

 

[DefinitelyNotTom]

I'm not either. It's like Asus and MSI each looked at their X470/B450 VRM's and said 'hmm...what can we do different'. Only Asus improved (to the point of extreme overkill, at least for current Ry3k processors) and MSI turned theirs to mush.

yeah I did think they must have done something negatively, as great as the b450 was talked up from msi and then suddenly for x570 people not seeming impressed.

Oh well. I am stressing myself crazily. Will just have to go with one and be done with it. At least I have it narrowed down to the 3 x570 ones if I find more clarification on fan noise or keeping the msi I have. ps I kind of like that it has less flashy BIOS, IF their BIOS would just work properly. But I am worried a FUTURE update will be screwed too due to lack of space, even if they get THIS one working properly for now.

 

[drea.drechsler]

LOL...

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/cdzwwo/asus_bios_updates_and_ryzen_3000/

 

[DefinitelyNotTom]

lol.

btw, don't you think even if MSI gets that BIOS working, the space issue is going to mean more problems later on? If there's issues getting RAM running at good speeds, for instance, they may have little wiggle room to do anything in the BIOS. That's the main reason I am considering the x570.

 

[drea.drechsler]

lol.

btw, don't you think even if MSI gets that BIOS working, the space issue is going to mean more problems later on? ....

I can't say... but i know cutting out the graphic interface in addition to Bristol Ridge support chopped the size down considerably. There's also an argument that's gaining a lot of traction: an Ry3k ONLY bios. Meaning no support for 1000, perhaps even 2000 processors. Why that might be a problem when they're selling boards right now that don't support certain processors 'out of the box' is beyond me. And in the case of boards with BIOS flashback feature it has to be very low-risk.

I've read of several Mortar and Tomahawk successes coming with good memory speed: 3200 and 3600 using XMP, one guy on a B450 Pro Carbon at 3733. I wouldn't ever expect better than that on any 400 or 300 series board.

 

[drea.drechsler]

MSI Speaks... if you're interested. One big take away is all the board mfr's are experiencing problems, not just MSI. As with the 1st gen release, AMD did not give board partners a whole lot of time with the new chips prior to roll-out.

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/MSI_Gaming/comments/ce3ift/msi_b450_tomahawk_update/

Be sure to read through for all of MSI_Jorge 's comments too. Very informative, especially the part about a 3rd gen only BIOS solution. But this sticks out too:

"Our BIOS team is working very hard to release stable BIOS versions for all motherboards compatible with Ryzen 3rd gen processors. Please understand that this is no easy task especially for so many models, and is certainly not as simple as copy/pasting code. We estimate that new BIOS with the new AGESA will be released closer to the end of this month for most board models. "

 

[DefinitelyNotTom]

MSI Speaks... if you're interested. One big take away is all the board mfr's are experiencing problems, not just MSI. As with the 1st gen release, AMD did not give board partners a whole lot of time with the new chips prior to roll-out.

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/MSI_Gaming/comments/ce3ift/msi_b450_tomahawk_update/

Be sure to read through for all of MSI_Jorge 's comments too. Very informative, especially the part about a 3rd gen only BIOS solution. But this sticks out too:

"Our BIOS team is working very hard to release stable BIOS versions for all motherboards compatible with Ryzen 3rd gen processors. Please understand that this is no easy task especially for so many models, and is certainly not as simple as copy/pasting code. We estimate that new BIOS with the new AGESA will be released closer to the end of this month for most board models. "

Thanks. I have a bad headache (wonder why....), but will read it later. Also I had said a while back they should make a ryzen 3 only BIOS version. hmm not sure what I will do, but I probably should still get an x570 because I jumped through hoops to get over $125 in amazon credits! So it's like I'd be getting a mobo for less than half price. And to GET those credits I had to buy $525 in gift cards, so I obviously need to spend it on something. I'm going to have way too much credit... I may have to buy things for relatives and have them pay me back, where I can use that credit up.

Do you think the x570 VRM is generally better than even the good msi b450 VRM?

 

[drea.drechsler]

Thanks. I have a bad headache (wonder why....), but will read it later. Also I had said a while back they should make a ryzen 3 only BIOS version. ....

When you think about it, it really makes sense to do a 3rd gen only BIOS. First thing: they wouldn't have to do regression testing for the BIOS on 1st and 2nd gen chips... that should be a big deal since they have to use the GSE-Lite UI, a major change. Second thing is: they are even SAYING 'do not use on 1st or 2nd gen'. Duhh. Third thing: the boards with FlashBack can easily recover from an accidental update to 3rd gen only BIOS that leaves a 1st gen board bricked when notes and warnings and update lock-outs are all ignored or by-passed.

Last and most obvious: they're already doing it for Bristol Ridge.

 

[DefinitelyNotTom]

When you think about it, it really makes sense to do a 3rd gen only BIOS. First thing: they wouldn't have to do regression testing for the BIOS on 1st and 2nd gen chips... that should be a big deal since they have to use the GSE-Lite UI, a major change. Second thing is: they are even SAYING 'do not use on 1st or 2nd gen'. Duhh. Third thing: the boards with FlashBack can easily recover from an accidental update to 3rd gen only BIOS that leaves a 1st gen board bricked when notes and warnings and update lock-outs are all ignored or by-passed.

Last and most obvious: they're already doing it for Bristol Ridge.

They'd have to either make it not be default or else have some boxes say ryzen 3 only and some not is the only thing.

Man, I just can't decide what to do still. If I keep the msi I got that $500 gift card really for nothing then. lol. I feel like I about have to get an x570 after jumping through so many hoops for the credits.

Between amazon and newegg I have over $700 in credit and all I need is a mobo, a case, and a monitor... I'm going to have a lot of extra left...

Well and I technically already have a case, but trying to sell it (unopened) because I want a fractal design.

 

[DefinitelyNotTom]

Now they sold out of the mobo I was going to get, due to me waiting so long to decide and it says ships in 1-2 months now. And the asus ones are about to be aback in stock somewhere, but most of those have Realtek lan instead of intel and I read that Realtek ones are known for issues.

And nokw 3799xz back ins tock, but I can't decide that or keep 3900x.

THEN after all of that, I now see pcie 4 ssds and am tempted to get one and sell my pcie 3 ones and that would just be even more lost money.

 

[drea.drechsler]

Now they sold out of the mobo I was going to get, due to me waiting so long to decide and it says ships in 1-2 months now......

In 1-2 months the MAX boards will be out with 32MB BIOS chips and Ryzen 3000 supported 'out of the box'.

 

[DefinitelyNotTom]

In 1-2 months the MAX boards will be out with 32MB BIOS chips and Ryzen 3000 supported 'out of the box'.

yeah and another thing that will be out is better components of other types where I'll be tempted to sell parts off yet againa nd waste more money. I need to hurry and build. And also even if that BIOS is out, I am tempted to get a x570 now because I went through so many hoops getting amazon discounts where it would offset the higher cost.

Or I could get an asus x570 next week, I think. But most of them have Realtek lan or they lack wifi. I think the pro has intel lan but no wifi and is more expensive than the gigabyte I was going to get. I'd be paying $50 extra just for brand basically.

Or I could stick with msi b450.... but like I said now I am even tempted by the pcie 4 ssds. lol. The sabrent one is on sale for $200 per tb. People say you don't need a nvme one at all, but if you're moving files from ssd to ssd, the speed differences would make a difference then...