[MPRDB] Equipment

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(For reference, this post is fuelled by Martin's Dungeon Bash bug 1.3-13
"Having goblins drop daggers is pointless", reported by Gero Kunter.)

Actually, the bug's a little more fundamental: having daggers appear in
Martin's Infinite Dungeon for any reason is pointless; all daggers are
exactly identical. In fact, all items of a single type are always
exactly identical; weird armours are implemented by having a new entry
in the permobj database for each new armour.

Obviously, this is a problem. Now, I could solve this by suppressing
random generation of daggers entirely, but this is my least preferred
solution, since it fails to fix the problem that dungeonbash's weapons
are boring.

I'm also not particularly inclined to just add the concept of "pluses" -
per-obj raw numerical bonuses - to weapons and armour, at least not in
the style of Rogue, Crawl, Nethack, Angband, or ADOM.

I won't be discarding dungeonbash's inventory model; I'm rather taken
with the whole "19 slots total" arrangement. I just need to add enough
things of interest that the constraint of 19 imposes a choice on the
player.

Oh, and I still need to implement attacks that use a pure-agility defence
(hindered by heavy armour) like the comments in permobj.c suggest I'll be
doing.

So, I'm inviting suggestions. Suggestions I like get taken on board,
moulded to my personal vision of dungeonbash's laws of nature, and put
into v1.4 (or possibly a later release if I think they're too scary for
v1.4), and whoever suggests them gets their name in lights in "notes.txt".
Particularly impressive suggestions that are implemented will get you a
credit on the title banner :)
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html
 
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On 23 Mar 2005 21:53:58 +0000 (GMT), Martin Read wrote:

> I'm also not particularly inclined to just add the concept of "pluses" -
> per-obj raw numerical bonuses - to weapons and armour, at least not in
> the style of Rogue, Crawl, Nethack, Angband, or ADOM.

> So, I'm inviting suggestions. Suggestions I like get taken on board,
> moulded to my personal vision of dungeonbash's laws of nature, and put
> into v1.4 (or possibly a later release if I think they're too scary for
> v1.4), and whoever suggests them gets their name in lights in "notes.txt".
> Particularly impressive suggestions that are implemented will get you a
> credit on the title banner :)

Daggers could allow hitting multiple times at different targets close by, or allow you to move one space while attacking (around the attacker), or hit small targets better, or have a guaranteed hit.

You could collect them and do super dagger attacks. 2 for double throw, 3 for spike fury (attack 1,5x and change positions with target), 5 to set a dagger trap, 7 for negative defense modifier and a challenge game score bonus.

If you kill something with a dagger you have a better change to get this special used armour, which will give negative charisma and allow you to talk to dark elves.

After throwing a dagger your opponent starts to walk awkwardly, forgetting any traps around him. When fighting with daggers the foe will sometimes go in berserk mode. You can back away and take a stab if it was an especially clumsy attack. When getting lots of attacks in and doing at least a half circle around the enemy you can make him dizzy for 5 turns.

Plucking daggers into holes in the walls allows you to climb back a level. Takes 4 daggers.
 
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Lauri Vallo <laEEKSMTPva@kolumbus.fi> wrote:
>Daggers could allow hitting multiple times at different targets close
>by, or allow you to move one space while attacking (around the attacker),
>or hit small targets better, or have a guaranteed hit.

These are neat, but opens more cans of worms than I'm willing to deal
with just yet :)

>You could collect them and do super dagger attacks. 2 for double throw,
>3 for spike fury (attack 1,5x and change positions with target), 5 to
>set a dagger trap, 7 for negative defense modifier and a challenge game
>score bonus.

Same again, I'm afraid.

>If you kill something with a dagger you have a better change to get
>this special used armour, which will give negative charisma and allow
>you to talk to dark elves.

This would be neat, if I had any intention of introducing NPCs or
charisma, and if the player's starting weapon wasn't a dagger :)
(The name gives away the style of the game, really.)

>After throwing a dagger your opponent starts to walk awkwardly,
>forgetting any traps around him. When fighting with daggers the foe will
>sometimes go in berserk mode. You can back away and take a stab if it was
>an especially clumsy attack. When getting lots of attacks in and doing at
>least a half circle around the enemy you can make him dizzy for 5 turns.

Traps! Thank you for reminding me. dungeonbash needs to have traps
added sometime, though I need to work out what they should do.

All in all, a whole bunch of neat ideas, but add a level of complexity
that would be jarring when set against the rest of dungeonbash (Martin's
Dungeon Bash is still quite a simple game, even now that it has liches
who curse you, wizards who teleport away from you, ...)
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html
 
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Martin Read wrote:
> (For reference, this post is fuelled by Martin's Dungeon Bash bug
1.3-13
> "Having goblins drop daggers is pointless", reported by Gero Kunter.)
>
> Actually, the bug's a little more fundamental: having daggers appear
in
> Martin's Infinite Dungeon for any reason is pointless; all daggers
are
> exactly identical. In fact, all items of a single type are always
> exactly identical; weird armours are implemented by having a new
entry
> in the permobj database for each new armour.
>
> Obviously, this is a problem. Now, I could solve this by suppressing
> random generation of daggers entirely, but this is my least preferred
> solution, since it fails to fix the problem that dungeonbash's
weapons
> are boring.
>
> I'm also not particularly inclined to just add the concept of
"pluses" -
> per-obj raw numerical bonuses - to weapons and armour, at least not
in
> the style of Rogue, Crawl, Nethack, Angband, or ADOM.

IIRC, Dungeon Bash is a space invaders like survival game, right?

Why not then have explicit decay on all weapons and armour? Each
weapon gets a certain number of successful hits before it goes *poof*
(No repairing, of course) and each armour a certain number of
successful blocks.

Daggers are thus useful to replace your starting dagger. Also, finding
a Sword Of Ultimate Power doesn't end the item acquisition subgame -
you know you'll need to replace it at some point.

At a minimum, turning "Long swords" into consumeables will drive the
game in a different direction than Nethack/Crawl/Angband.
--
Jeff Lait
(POWDER: http://www.zincland.com/powder)
 
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In rec.games.roguelike.development Martin Read <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> (For reference, this post is fuelled by Martin's Dungeon Bash bug 1.3-13
> "Having goblins drop daggers is pointless", reported by Gero Kunter.)

> Actually, the bug's a little more fundamental: having daggers appear in
> Martin's Infinite Dungeon for any reason is pointless; all daggers are
> exactly identical. In fact, all items of a single type are always
> exactly identical; weird armours are implemented by having a new entry
> in the permobj database for each new armour.

> Obviously, this is a problem. Now, I could solve this by suppressing
> random generation of daggers entirely,

Or you could remove the dagger from the starting equipment as a really
quick fix. That might increase the rate of early deaths, but will make
dagger finds at least somewhat worth it.

> but this is my least preferred solution, since it fails to fix the problem
> that dungeonbash's weapons are boring.

It is true that you quite quickly reach a point where you can safely
ignore any weapon (and armour, although somewhat later) lying around in the
dungeon. The biggest incentive to go on is, in my opinion, potions of body
and agility, and the opportunity to face another arch-lich. They are quite
fun to deal with.

> I'm also not particularly inclined to just add the concept of "pluses" -
> per-obj raw numerical bonuses - to weapons and armour, at least not in
> the style of Rogue, Crawl, Nethack, Angband, or ADOM.

What about the possibility of having affixes for weapons instead? A red
dagger may grant fire resistance, a runesword of purity may inhibit black
magic, a mace of power may increase Body. This might increase the
probability that players want to keep more weapons than exactly one (the
best one). You might also include negative affixes, something like an
unhealthy longsword which prevents regeneration. Maybe some or all of
these affixes should only be known to the player after reading an
identification scroll. Later in the game, these aren't required at all,
and something like this might make them interesting again.

> I won't be discarding dungeonbash's inventory model; I'm rather taken
> with the whole "19 slots total" arrangement. I just need to add enough
> things of interest that the constraint of 19 imposes a choice on the
> player.

The slots restriction is a good decision which you should definitely keep,
but it happens only rarely that you run out of slots, that's true. My
suggestion: diversify the utility of the items. Having specialised weapons
might help. Change the vampire ring to cause even less bonus damage. Undead
might be particular vulnerable to fire damage, but immune to cold as well as
drain attacks, and the other way around for dragons. Force the player to
review the inventory and adjust the equipment to the situation.

> Oh, and I still need to implement attacks that use a pure-agility defence
> (hindered by heavy armour) like the comments in permobj.c suggest I'll be
> doing.

Does that mean that the agility modifiers for different suits of armour
as suggested in the spoiler don't work yet? As I read it, the robes of
shadow should grant more defence than mage armour when Agility is high
enough, but this doesn't seem to be the case. If you add this, the player
may want to try out different kinds of armour as the Agility score changes.

Cheers, Gero

--
Gero Kunter (gero.kunter@epost.de)
 
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Quoting Martin Read <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk>:
>Obviously, this is a problem. Now, I could solve this by suppressing
>random generation of daggers entirely, but this is my least preferred
>solution, since it fails to fix the problem that dungeonbash's weapons
>are boring.

Daggers, specifically, could be throwable.

If you don't like plain plusses, how about;
a) "fine" and "masterwork" versions of weapons (immediately obvious).
b) magical "schticks" (suggested elsewhere); divide them into two classes
by usefulness, "enchanted" and "magical" (or whatever), class immediately
obvious, but exact function not. That way, I don't have to collect-and-ID
every weapon I find, just the ones in the better classes, of which there
might not be a prohibitive number.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Today is Second Gouday, March.
 
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"Jeff Lait" <torespondisfutile@hotmail.com> wrote:
>IIRC, Dungeon Bash is a space invaders like survival game, right?
>
>Why not then have explicit decay on all weapons and armour? Each
>weapon gets a certain number of successful hits before it goes *poof*
>(No repairing, of course) and each armour a certain number of
>successful blocks.

I like this. It's in. (With a slight additional twist: in addition to
taking damage on successful blocks, armour takes damage on one in every
three successful enemy attacks if you are currently subject to an
armourmelt curse, to represent your dust-weak armour having chunks
carved out of it.)

It'll doubtless be a nightmare to fine-tune :)
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html
 
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"Martin Read" <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
news:Kjl*5ErKq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
> "Jeff Lait" <torespondisfutile@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>IIRC, Dungeon Bash is a space invaders like survival game, right?
>>
>>Why not then have explicit decay on all weapons and armour? Each
>>weapon gets a certain number of successful hits before it goes *poof*
>>(No repairing, of course) and each armour a certain number of
>>successful blocks.
>
> I like this. It's in. (With a slight additional twist: in addition to
> taking damage on successful blocks, armour takes damage on one in every
> three successful enemy attacks if you are currently subject to an
> armourmelt curse, to represent your dust-weak armour having chunks
> carved out of it.)
>
> It'll doubtless be a nightmare to fine-tune :)

Just make sure that unarmed attacks aren't impossible. I'm sure at the
end a good player will have some kind of stash of weaponry, but in the
beginning if that dagger breaks...

--
Glen
L:pyt E+++ T-- R+ P+++ D+ G+ F:*band !RL RLA-
W:AF Q+++ AI++ GFX++ SFX-- RN++++ PO--- !Hp Re-- S+
 
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"Glen Wheeler" <gew75@uow.edu.au> wrote:
> Just make sure that unarmed attacks aren't impossible. I'm sure at the
>end a good player will have some kind of stash of weaponry, but in the
>beginning if that dagger breaks...

One step ahead of you :) The player has always been able to attack
without a weapon, albeit not terribly effectively. (The starting
character does one point of damage per unarmed hit.)
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html
 
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Martin Read wrote:
> "Glen Wheeler" <gew75@uow.edu.au> wrote:
>
>> Just make sure that unarmed attacks aren't impossible. I'm sure at the
>>end a good player will have some kind of stash of weaponry, but in the
>>beginning if that dagger breaks...
>
>
> One step ahead of you :) The player has always been able to attack
> without a weapon, albeit not terribly effectively. (The starting
> character does one point of damage per unarmed hit.)

Keep in mind that beginning characters often carry a shovel.
A shovel is not as good as, eg, a sword or an axe, but it's
a damned sight better than bare knuckles. It's up to you
whether someone can get a weapons proficiency with it though.

Bear