News MSI delivers first motherboard with CAMM2 memory — Z790 Project Zero brings new RAM standard to desktops

[Admin]

MSI's new Project Zero motherboard is equipped with a CAMM2 memory module. The new motherboard will be shown off at Computex 2024 sporting Kingston Fury CAMM2 memory.

MSI delivers first motherboard with CAMM2 memory — Z790 Project Zero brings new RAM standard to desktops : Read more

 

[PlutoDelic]

So, how many CAMM2 units can you use? That looks like single unit.

The layout is also begging for cooling solutions, which i'm all up for it.

 

[Notton]

So, how many CAMM2 units can you use? That looks like single unit.

The layout is also begging for cooling solutions, which i'm all up for it.

You only need 1 for dual channel 64GB.
AFAIK, it shouldn't need cooling, but it'd be interesting to see.

 

[Pierce2623]

Actually on a desktop, I’d call it quite fortunate that it’s just using ddr5 instead of lpddr5x. Unless you’re trying to specifically push iGPU performance the better latency of ddr5 will win every time for CPU performance .

 

[cyrusfox]

Is this wanted? While it enables shorter traces and better latency chip to memory, I think this is the wrong segment for it(Full ATX MOBO). Makes a lot more sense on the itx/ mini pc area to enable performance in the small package. I personally have zero interest on the desktop side, maybe once it becomes an established standard. Till then DIMMs are intransigent part of a system, If we see incursions on workstations and servers, maybe DIMMs days will be numbered. I'll take it over soldered Ram any day but this application makes no sense to me outside of a camm2 test platform.

 

[JarredWaltonGPU]

Is this wanted? While it enables shorter traces and better latency chip to memory, I think this is the wrong segment for it(Full ATX MOBO). Makes a lot more sense on the itx/ mini pc area to enable performance in the small package. I personally have zero interest on the desktop side, maybe once it becomes an established standard. Till then DIMMs are intransigent part of a system, If we see incursions on workstations and servers, maybe DIMMs days will be numbered. I'll take it over soldered Ram any day but this application makes no sense to me outside of a camm2 test platform.

Yeah, a large, flat single CAMM2 slot for memory doesn't actually register as a good thing in my view, for desktops. Because with that you have to buy all the RAM you want at the start, there's no good way to upgrade.

 

[bit_user]

So, how many CAMM2 units can you use? That looks like single unit.

Everything I've seen says it's a "one and done" sort of affair. It would be interesting if you could have a second one, in a fashion equivalent to running 4 DIMMs on current desktop boards (i.e. 2 DIMMs per channel), but that might partially defeat the point of it (which I think is mainly to tighten up the electrical specifications and design tolerances).

The layout is also begging for cooling solutions, which i'm all up for it.

Yeah, this looks to me like it's doing for memory cooling what the M.2 form factor did for SSD cooling.

Back when SSDs were 2.5", you could just make their enclosure out of metal and even put fins on it, if they dissipated a lot of heat. We see U.2 drives burning up to 20 W doing this. But, with M.2 drives screwed down onto motherboards, SSD cooling is now an issue and not one that's as easily resolved, in spite of them being limited by the slot to a more modest 13 W.

AFAIK, it shouldn't need cooling, but it'd be interesting to see.

Why do you believe it shouldn't need cooling? Haven't you seen overclockable gaming memory with big heatsinks? I'm sure that stuff isn't purely for show!

I'd like to remind folks that, as far as I can tell, there's RAM on the bottom of the CAMM2 board! That one of the ways they squeezed the footprint down so much! It's like a double-sided M.2 drive, except with even less space between the bottom side chips and the motherboard.

 

[Notton]

Why do you believe it shouldn't need cooling? Haven't you seen overclockable gaming memory with big heatsinks? I'm sure that stuff isn't purely for show!

because it gets superior airflow and a larger and closer contact patch to the mobo where it can dump heat into.

 

[bit_user]

Yeah, a large, flat single CAMM2 slot for memory doesn't actually register as a good thing in my view, for desktops. Because with that you have to buy all the RAM you want at the start, there's not good way to upgrade.

If/when desktops get support for CXL.mem devices, then maybe that will be offered as a way to add capacity.

 

[Notton]

oh, I just noticed... there are 4 suspicious looking screw holes mounted around the CAMM2 module.
Almost as if a heatsink is supposed to get screwed down on top.
although, I could be wrong, and those are for an RGB bar or LCD panel.

 

[bit_user]

because it gets superior airflow

Better airflow than if you have 4 DIMMs packed closely together, maybe. A lot of gamers only run with 2 DIMMs, leaving enough space between them for the heatsinks to actually work.

and a larger and closer contact patch to the mobo where it can dump heat into.

The motherboard would get heat-soaked almost immediately. There are lots of heat-generating components on motherboards and they're not necessarily receiving a lot of airflow.

I recently tried an experiment with backside CPU cooling. I found that mounting heatsinks on the motherboard suggests they indeed reach saturation rather quickly and aren't good at dissipating heat by themselves.

Question - How much does cooling the underside of the motherboard/CPU typically help ?

I have an Alder Lake N97 mini-ITX motherboard which has a soldered-down BGA CPU and non-standard heatsink. Upgrading the heatsink isn't a very realistic option, at least not without some custom machining that I'm not setup to do. I have added case fans, but the CPU is still sometimes pegged at...

forums.tomshardware.com

I know the thread is a bit thin on details of my solution, but I plan to post up my supporting data, this weekend.

 

[bit_user]

oh, I just noticed... there are 4 suspicious looking screw holes mounted around the CAMM2 module.
Almost as if a heatsink is supposed to get screwed down on top.

Well, it has some screws for holding the module down in place. The name CAMM stands for "Compression Attached Memory Module", where the compression is talking about mechanical compression of the electrical contacts. That compression is accomplished via screws.

https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-com...-of-approval-camm2-standard-ratified-by-jedec
​

There do seem to be smaller holes, but even putting a heatsink on the top side doesn't do much for the RAM underneath.

What's funny to me is how one of its purported benefits over SO-DIMMs is space-saving. However, that assumes you're putting the SO-DIMMSs parallel to the motherboard. In a desktop board, where you can plug them in perpendicular to it, this isn't saving space at all!

 

[ezst036]

Flat-mounted components such as this and m.2 are terribly inefficient with board space. Even on a standard ATX board format.

This at least replaces DIMM slots 1:1, however the m.2 are much worse since they eliminate the possibility of additional PCI-e slots.

I wish they'd make a vertical m.2 instead of flat.

 

[BillyBuerger]

I don't see CAMM2 taking up any more space than 4x DIMM slots does. And being flat on the PCB means a larger heat sink could be mounted on top of it for way better cooling than what DIMM memory has to try to squeeze into. It could essentially have an entire CPU heat sink on it. Considering how much power CPUs, GPUs and SSDs are using these days, if they can crank the power on memory to increase benchmarks, someone will do it. And one of the issues with M.2 cooling is that motherboards have traditionally put them very close to the CPU and GPU where there is little room for cooling. If they were in a better position with a standard heat sink mounting, then the same cooling solutions for CAMM2 and M.2 could be utilized. Or put M.2 right next to CAMM2 with the same Z height and have one large cooler for both. There's definitely interesting ways this could be done if they are smart about this. But it likely will turn into a compatibility mess with every manufacturer doing their own thing.

The only real downside I see with CAMM2 on the desktop is the upgradability. It's not uncommon to do something like pickup single stick of RAM and upgrade with a second one later. With CAMM2, you'd have to buy 16GB and then remove that and replace with 32GB. But of course doing with with DIMM means you'd be running single channel until you upgrade which isn't ideal. I expect most people would either replace or add 2 additional DIMMs assuming you have 4 slots. But I thought that in most cases using all 4 slots also limits performance a little bit as well. So doing a straight replacement upgrade is the only way to get optimal performance either way.

 

[hotaru251]

while there a few benefits the major issue will keep it from mainstream: price. People who actually care about what benefits this could bring would ratehr spend the $ on an actual beneficial part not a different form of ram.

what was the recent price reveal of camm2? like 180 for 32 and $330 for 64gb? people rather put that difference compared to standard ddr5 ram into a betetr gpu or cooling.

 

[Papusan]

Nice. We have already mobile processors with phone cores as desktop processors. Now we will get laptop memory modules for desktops as well. What next? More restictive firmware with no options in same as for Jokebooks/tablets? Jup, the modern tech trend continue.

 

[danny009]

Friendly reminder: RAMs and storage are common reasons laptop can bsod. Take a very good look what your buying and take your time.

Tech doesnt deliver what you wish? Simply don't buy. World doesnt going to end dont worry,

 

[thestryker]

I'm not even remotely sold on this design for desktops given how hot high speed DDR5 runs. Even with clamshell chips the module they're showing cannot have more than 96GB capacity. So we have limited capacity and potential cooling issues with no real benefit for desktop users. The only place I see it really having any potential on desktop would be ITX boards and replacing SODIMMs on minis.

 

[HideOut]

The "camm 2 is replacing SODIMM" isnt true. Somehow people forget there was an original CAMM and that dell had released some machines with the memory just last year... Camm 2 is replacing Camm, hence the name CAmm TWO

 

[thestryker]

The "camm 2 is replacing SODIMM" isnt true. Somehow people forget there was an original CAMM and that dell had released some machines with the memory just last year... Camm 2 is replacing Camm, hence the name CAmm TWO

CAMM was never adopted by JEDEC, but they based the CAMM2 spec on it hence the name. So yes it is in fact replacing the SODIMM specification.

 

[Geef]

Yeah, a large, flat single CAMM2 slot for memory doesn't actually register as a good thing in my view, for desktops. Because with that you have to buy all the RAM you want at the start, there's no good way to upgrade.

I was thinking same thing, except the motherboard and RAM are usually the least swapped out items. There would need to be serious research to motherboard to make sure you are purchasing the one you will use... that has enough USB slots, M.2 slots... and other things. (I really hate it when I run out of USB plugs on back of motherboard.)

 

[usertests]

while there a few benefits the major issue will keep it from mainstream: price. People who actually care about what benefits this could bring would ratehr spend the $ on an actual beneficial part not a different form of ram.

what was the recent price reveal of camm2? like 180 for 32 and $330 for 64gb? people rather put that difference compared to standard ddr5 ram into a betetr gpu or cooling.

That pricing is normal for a brand new standard, just look at the high initial DDR5 pricing.

It is suspicious for desktop use though, for the reasons already stated. After the DDR6 generation is over, I think we'll see a certain amount of RAM migrate into the CPU, and extra will be plugged into a PCIe slot.

 

[35below0]

Yeah, a large, flat single CAMM2 slot for memory doesn't actually register as a good thing in my view, for desktops. Because with that you have to buy all the RAM you want at the start, there's no good way to upgrade.

There is never a good way to upgrade because memory sticks hate each other.

This is a simplification, and a very welcome one. I don't see any downsides other than it being very early, bleeding edge tech.

I'm not even remotely sold on this design for desktops given how hot high speed DDR5 runs. Even with clamshell chips the module they're showing cannot have more than 96GB capacity. So we have limited capacity and potential cooling issues with no real benefit for desktop users. The only place I see it really having any potential on desktop would be ITX boards and replacing SODIMMs on minis.

Bling bling aRGB passive coolers coming right up. Or active. And liquid.

 

[thestryker]

Bling bling aRGB

passive coolers coming right up. Or active. And liquid.

In all seriousness though the dual channel spec has memory chips on both sides of the module which inherently makes the bottom ones a lot harder to cool. Single channel only has them on top, but one module ends up being covered by the other in dual channel mode so this doesn't resolve the issue either.

This is a simplification, and a very welcome one. I don't see any downsides other than it being very early, bleeding edge tech.

It is a simplification and that aspect is great, but the limited capacity (unless using LPDDR) is a very real problem.

 

[SyCoREAPER]

I'll let this tech mature a bit before even entertaining the idea of adopting it.