Question MSI Lite Load Control – Intel 13900k stability / performance issues - - - any suggestions ?

[Iddo Genuth]

Hi,

My main work PC is having huge issues. I have an Intel 13900k on an MSI MEG Z790 ACE board (96GB ram, two 48GB units). My Win 10 and many softwares (Chrome, Photoshop, Edge, Thunderbird, and many others) keep crashing (most of them just close with no error message), and Windows itself gets blue screens often as well.

I updated to the latest BIOS recently but maybe it was too late (I hope not I really don’t want to do the whole RMA thing – I don’t have the box and taking the CPU out just for the SN is not something I really wish to do not to mention what will I have to do without a CPU until I get the new one and this is a work PC).

I have very little knowledge on overclocking/underclocking, but I tried to read whatever I could, and I would love some help from people with more experience.

I tried Lite Load at 9 and disabled Intel Turbo Boost and Boost Technology 3.0 - this combination seemed to stop the crashing and the system is now stable, BUT it is about 1/2 the performance and I can't continue like that (what is the point of having a 13900K and getting 1/2 the speed).

So my question - what settings should I change in the BIOS to try and bring this PC to as stable as possible but keep more of the performance (I assume there will be a penalty, but I want to keep it as small as possible) - suggestions are very welcome!

Thanks in advance!

Id

 

[Lutfij]

The common gut feeling I get when reading of 13th/14th Gen Intel processor + BSoD's in the same thread, is it's your processor.

(96GB ram, two 48GB units).
Got a link to the ram kit used?

I updated to the latest bios recently but maybe it was too late (I hope not I really don’t want to do the whole RMA thing – I don’t have the box and taking the CPU out just for the SN is not something I really wish to do not to mention what will I have to do without a CPU until I get the new one and this is a work PC).
We can merely suggest, at the end of the day you'll need to carry out the deed.

My Win 10 and many software (Chrome, Photoshop, Edge, Thunderbird, and many others) keep crashing (most of them just close with no error message), Windows itself gets blue screens often as well.
You might want to elaborate on what many others means.

Have you tried turning off X.M.P in BIOS? Though the other thing to ask is, are you sure you've ruled out OS and software corruption before pointing a finger at hardware/their settings?

So my question - what settings should I change in the BIOS to try and bring this PC to as stable as possible but keep more of the performance (I assume there will be a penalty, but I want to keep it as small as possible) - suggestions are very welcome!
In essence, to curb the defects/issues, the BIOS updates did reduce the processor's performance but by a small degree. If you ran high capacity sticks of ram, you'd need to disable any overclock beyond DDR5-4800MHz, set power plan to balanced or power saver. Further reading;

Is your Intel Core i9-13900K crashing in games? Your motherboard BIOS settings may be to blame — other high-end Intel CPUs also affected (Updated)

Apparently a 4096W power limit might be a bad idea.

www.tomshardware.com

The good thing is that you're not on an Asus motherboard, which took the highest performance hit after their BIOS update, not to mention the wrong default BIOS settings after the BIOS update takes place.

 

[Iddo Genuth]

Thanks.
However, I am looking for specific settings to adjust and specific numbers in the bios to try.

 

[uWebb429]

Win 10

Intel's 12th Gen and newer CPUs use Performance and Efficiency cores. Windows 10 is not P & E core aware. Windows 11 can schedule tasks on the appropriate cores. Windows 10 does not have this ability. You can have a big performance hit when a task that should be running on a P core ends up being scheduled on a slower E core.

Instead of disabling Intel Turo Boost, try limiting the CPU so it uses the same maximum multiplier no matter how many Performance cores are active. You should be able to do this in the BIOS or you can use ThrottleStop to do this.

https://imgur.com/5jiXTPh

View: https://i.imgur.com/5jiXTPh.png


I would also use the Windows High Performance power plan. If this plan is hidden on your computer, you can use ThrottleStop to access it.

Running a CPU at a constant speed can increase stability. Some users that do not understand Intel CPUs think this is a terrible thing to do. As long as the C states are enabled in the BIOS, inactive cores will enter the low power C7 state. In this state cores are disconnected from the internal clock and they are disconnected from the voltage rail. Inactive cores are sitting at 0 MHz and 0 Volts. That is as good as it gets.

There is no need to use the Windows Balanced power plan to slow a CPU down. Some tiny power savings is not important if your computer is constantly crashing.

 

[Iddo Genuth]

Interesting - I had no idea win 11 has any real performence advantage (of this sort) over win 10.
Anyway, I am on 10 and will probably not upgrade until Windows 12 is at least 6 months without any major bugs.

Back to what you wrote.
Do you know how to limit the CPU in the BIOS? I am unfamiliar with the different settings, and I don't want to accidentally change something I should not.

I downloaded ThrottleStop and activated high performance (maybe it's indeed easier to limit it from here - there is a set multiplier, but I am not sure what number to choose (it is currently at 63T - what is this?).

Not sure what all this paragraph means exactly (a bit over my head) - Running a CPU at a constant speed can increase stability. Some users that do not understand Intel CPUs think this is a terrible thing to do. As long as the C states are enabled in the BIOS, inactive cores will enter the low power C7 state. In this state cores are disconnected from the internal clock and they are disconnected from the voltage rail. Inactive cores are sitting at 0 MHz and 0 Volts. That is as good as it gets.

Do I need to do something beyond limiting the CPU and High Performance in your opinion?

Thanks for all the suggestions btw!
ID

 

[uWebb429]

ThrottleStop

Post screenshots of the ThrottleStop FIVR and TPL windows so I can see what options are available to you.

set multiplier

This was a control method that Intel CPUs used to use. It is rarely used any more. If this setting is not being used on your computer, it will be locked out in ThrottleStop so you cannot adjust it.

I had no idea win 11 has any real performance advantage

Some tasks can run 30% to 40% faster when properly scheduled on a Performance core. This happens automatically when using Windows 11. Task scheduling is random chance when using Windows 10.

Do you know how to limit the CPU in the BIOS?

I am not familiar with your motherboard BIOS. Look for the turbo ratio or turbo group settings.

Do I need to do something beyond limiting the CPU and High Performance in your opinion?

Start by doing these two things and test your computer to see if it is stable. I think a lot of stability problems are caused by the default turbo ratios that Intel decided to use. Intel's need to compete with AMD forced them to factory overclock their CPUs to the edge of stability. You might be able to get away with this when a CPU is new out of the box. After a year, you might start experiencing random crashes on a regular basis.

C states

When your computer is idle at the desktop, ThrottleStop will show you if the low power C states are enabled and being used. Cores can average over 99% in the C7 state if you do not have a lot of junk running in the background on your computer.

 

[Iddo Genuth]

Sorry for the late reply - this is our main work PC and I can't experiment on it most of the time.
Here is an image of my ThrottleStop. I hope this helps in any way:
https://ibb.co/qtDBwB6

My C7 is 0% my C6 is 99% (or around that) in idle - not sure what this means...

I still didn't change anything else as I am not sure what to change exactly (and my PC is not stable with any of the Intel boost active sadly...).

 

[uWebb429]

Here is an image of my ThrottleStop.

Post images of the other ThrottleStop windows too. The FIVR and TPL windows are the two important ones. A screenshot of the C States window when idle at the desktop would be useful too.

Have you looked in the BIOS yet for the turbo groups or turbo ratios? Using Disable Turbo to slow a CPU down will slow the CPU down way too much.

 

[QyInvoLing]

Immediately RMA your CPU, then upgrade the BIOS and enable IDF before the new CPU arrives.

 

[Iddo Genuth]

Hi,
More info to share:
1. I updated the BIOS again and cleared the BIOS as well to start "clean" (the latest BIOS for my MSI Z790 was released a few days ago).

2. I ran Cinebench2024 and got around 1850~ BUT looking in HWiNFO 64, I see that I am thermal throttling. I am using fan control and configured the auto to go all the way to 100%, but at the Intel default settings, some cores still reach 100c (I am using a Noctua NH-U12A, maybe its not enough for I remember doing a lot of research comparing it to the NH-D15 when I got the PC (I didn't want to mess around with water and noise was very important to me) so this is what I have to work with.

3. I didn't change anything in the bios after I cleared it.

Where do we go from here?

P.S. I also wanted to see if the people on the MSI forum have some ideas - one of the guys there has a very different approach (or at least this is what It seems). I'll update my findings there as well.
https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?...-performance-suggestions.411797/#post-2331789

 

[drjohnnyfever]

You could try what I did for my 14600K. There are 4 videos and a Reddit post about undervolting. I don't know about that Noctua cooler, but the Thermalright Phantom Spirit 120 SE is an excellent one. I loaded the advanced defaults and then went right to the CPU Lite feature in the Bios and tuned it down to 11. Don't run xmp or the Intel boost until after following the videos and the reddit tuning. With your 13900K, you should be able to tune it a little higher.

You might need to RMA it as suggested, but these steps worked very well for me. Hopefully they'll work for you too. Run the Cinebench23 and HWMonitor and watch temps. If any core hits 99C or higher, stop it and tune the CPU Lite down. Don't let if just run, the prolonged high temps are what causes the damage and makes it worse. Any way, the CPU Lite was the key, and then you can manually set the clocks of each core as you'll see in the Reddit post. The videos show what the undervolt can do and the one that talks about the different MOBOs helps to find and tune what you'll read in the Reddit. Post #51 on the link below. Good luck.

https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/i7-14700k-temps-too-high.3871729/page-2#posts