News MSI Stealthily Revamps GeForce RTX 3080 Design Amid Stability Concerns

[Admin]

Reports reveal that MSI has fixed the capacitor design on its GeForce RTX 3080 Gaming X Trio and GeForce RTX 3080 Ventus 3X.

MSI Stealthily Revamps GeForce RTX 3080 Design Amid Stability Concerns : Read more

 

[saunupe1911]

Sounds like it's a blessing that these aren't readily available. I sticking with EVGA FTW or Hybrid, MSI Gaming Trio, or Asus Strix. Those are the only brands and lineups that I will even attempt to purchase

 

[logainofhades]

MSI not being open and honest? Color me shocked. /sarcasm.

 

[torbjorn.lindgren]

It's known that there is Zotac cards with 6xSP-CAP's in customers hands - not POSCAP's, cue AHOC rant about people getting this wrong, since he's very knowledgeable in this area and was showing the manufacturer's datasheets in the stream I'm going to assume he's right and the press is wrong on that.

EVGA's press release claims that they discovered the issue during testing in time to make sure no retail cards used 6 large caps, but that a few review samples did use this configuration and that they're working on getting those replaced. I'm fine with review samples having issues...

There's been rumors about a few other manufacturers but I'm not going to name any since I'm not sure on any of them.

And no, the MLC configuration definitely isn't cheaper. Yes, one MLC capacitors is likely cheaper than one large capacitor but the correct comparison is 10 MLC capacitors vs 1 larger capacitor and 10 MLC capacitors definitely cost more. The MLC configuration also takes slightly longer to make because there's more components for the picket machines to place - this is very small though because there's so many other components that even 54 extra doesn't add much percentage-wise.

When it comes to performance using 10 MLC instead of 1 large capacitor results in better performance in every way, so the reason for not use all MLC comes down to either cost or wanting to differentiate the more expensive cards - the improved filtering by the MLC array can lead to very slightly better overclocking capabilities (or possibly when it tries to boost very high in this case).

Note that as cards goes up the "stack" at one manufacturer they tend to get more MLCs and less of the large capacitors in the GPU back cavity which should show that using MLCs is the more expensive (and better) option.

The exception to all this appears to be ASUS - they appear to have gone with all-MLC on all of their 3080/3090 cards! Nice.

 

[thepersonwithaface45]

The exception to all this appears to be ASUS - they appear to have gone with all-MLC on all of their 3080/3090 cards! Nice.

ASUS FTW! October 25 can't come soon enough.
Though, really hope retailers have sorted out these bot issues by then

 

[helper800]

When it comes to performance using 10 MLC instead of 1 large capacitor results in better performance in every way,

There is one thing that the SP-Caps do better than MLC capacitors and that is in total capacitance and in heat tolerance. MLC capacitors tend to break down over time much quicker than SP-Caps because of the latter.

 

[InvalidError]

And no, the MLC configuration definitely isn't cheaper. Yes, one MLC capacitors is likely cheaper than one large capacitor but the correct comparison is 10 MLC capacitors vs 1 larger capacitor and 10 MLC capacitors definitely cost more.

The cost of MLCCs varies a lot depending on capacitance and voltage rating. A 1k reel of 10uF in 0805 packaging costs around $25, which is ~$0.25 for 10 of 'em vs ~$0.60 for a 330uF polymer cap. If they are using 47uF caps, then those do get somewhat pricey at ~$90 per 1k reel.

As far as bypassing a high speed ASICs is concerned and provided that bulk capacitance across the board is sufficient to keep the power and ground plane voltage even, the cheaper 10uF caps may actually be better than 47uF ones since they will hit their SRF one octave later.

 

[JarredWaltonGPU]

The cost of MLCCs varies a lot depending on capacitance and voltage rating. A 1k reel of 10uF in 0805 packaging costs around $25, which is ~$0.25 for 10 of 'em vs ~$0.60 for a 330uF polymer cap. If they are using 47uF caps, then those do get somewhat pricey at ~$90 per 1k reel.

As far as bypassing a high speed ASICs is concerned and provided that bulk capacitance across the board is sufficient to keep the power and ground plane voltage even, the cheaper 10uF caps may actually be better than 47uF ones since they will hit their SRF one octave later.

Seems like the 'good' configurations use either 10x 47uF MLCC, or 1x 470uF SP-Cap. I suspect the cost of the latter is pretty close the former, but then board layout probably requires more time and complexity so the single SP-Cap ends up cheaper. But for a $700 -- and especially $1500 -- card, it's a drop in the bucket.

 

[HorseTempura]

I was one of the lucky/unlucky people to legit purchase a MSI GeForce RTX 3080 Gaming X Trio cards from Newegg... If MSI is doing a redesign with two arrays of MLCC instead of one, do you think they will exchange/fix it under the RMA? The crashes have stopped for me after changing the Core Clock to -100MHz and installing the NVIDIA Studio Drivers. Card is still a beast even if it isnt reaching its full potential..

 

[vinay2070]

I was one of the lucky/unlucky people to legit purchase a MSI GeForce RTX 3080 Gaming X Trio cards from Newegg... If MSI is doing a redesign with two arrays of MLCC instead of one, do you think they will exchange/fix it under the RMA? The crashes have stopped for me after changing the Core Clock to -100MHz and installing the NVIDIA Studio Drivers. Card is still a beast even if it isnt reaching its full potential..

Did you manually OC the card and then reduce the 100, or reduce the 100 from the stock?

 

[HorseTempura]

Did you manually OC the card and then reduce the 100, or reduce the 100 from the stock?

It was a stock install, the only tweaking I did was to manually underclock the card -100 MHz to prevent the crashing once it began. I hear its different for everyone, I have read that people can underclock the card -50MHz and be able to have stability that was not the case for me.
After my tweak I have played several hour game sessions over the weekend of Warzone and Dead By Daylight and haven't had any issues.

 

[InvalidError]

Seems like the 'good' configurations use either 10x 47uF MLCC, or 1x 470uF SP-Cap.

From a pure ESR and ESL standpoint, no polymer capacitor can hold a candle to an equivalent footprint filled with MLCCs. But cost-effective MLCCs don't have the bulk capacitance required for filtering DC-300kHz. Using 47uF MLCCs is the no-expense-spared option,

 

[vov4ik_il]

The decoupling circuitry revisions are a norm with every new chip.
P.S. +1 to the above. And there are no good configurations, there are proper and less proper designs.
P.P.S And if I were to write for Toms' I would stay away from amateur explanations about capacitors in VRM and decoupling designs, it is quite a little more complicated than what I was reading in the linked article. I am too lazy to write, but this guy had already done it for me,... so that's why.

 

[Koen1982]

I think this is a nice example of computer companies that design stuff (or copy from nVidia) and don't check/measure their designs afterwards. Those chips will have ripple specifications that they should have checked in real life.

 

[InvalidError]

I think this is a nice example of computer companies that design stuff (or copy from nVidia) and don't check/measure their designs afterwards. Those chips will have ripple specifications that they should have checked in real life.

AiB partners got their drivers at the same time reviewers got theirs, they didn't get to do real-world testing prior to launch so they discovered the issues at about the same time reviewers and early adopters did.

 

[bollwerk]

As someone else mentioned, this article is slightly inaccurate in using the term "POSCAP", rather than "SP-CAP".
Perhaps the article should be updated to fix this?


POSCAP is a Panasonic specific brand, with an easily distinguishable white pattern on top, whereas SP-CAP is a more generic term for these types of capacitors.

Reference -

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPFKS8jNNh0

 

[JarredWaltonGPU]

As someone else mentioned, this article is slightly inaccurate in using the term "POSCAP", rather than "SP-CAP".
Perhaps the article should be updated to fix this?

POSCAP is a Panasonic specific brand, with an easily distinguishable white pattern on top, whereas SP-CAP is a more generic term for these types of capacitors.

Reference -

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPFKS8jNNh0

Many places -- including EVGA and MSI! -- tend to refer to all SP-Caps as POSCAPs. It's like saying 'Kleenex' instead of 'tissue paper' or 'Band-Aid' rather than 'adhesive bandage.' Just because Buildzoid went off on a rant doesn't make everyone capacitor experts. Yes, he's technically correct ... and also being quite pedantic about it. The meaning of POSCAP is clear from the article text. If someone sneezed and said "I need a Kleenex" you wouldn't respond with, "Sorry, I don't have that particular brand of tissue paper," would you? Or maybe a ten minute rant about the difference between Kleenex and various other tissue papers.

And of course, just as important as the type of capacitor used (SP-Cap or MLCC) is the rating and characteristics of the capacitor used.

 

[InvalidError]

Yes, he's technically correct ... and also being quite pedantic about it.

Well, POSCAPs do have a second differentiating characteristic from PSCaps besides being a house brand: they are tantalum-based for lower ESR than aluminum polymer. PSCap vs POSCAP is a bit like plain double ply vs triple ply with aloes extract.

 

[Neil S]

Reports reveal that MSI has fixed the capacitor design on its GeForce RTX 3080 Gaming X Trio and GeForce RTX 3080 Ventus 3X.

MSI Stealthily Revamps GeForce RTX 3080 Design Amid Stability Concerns : Read more

Based on the update yesterday. Can we please have clarification.

Are the gaming x trio 3080 cards now shipping with 4x SP-Caps and 2x MLCC clusters ?
Did any of the gaming x trio 3080 cards ship to consumers without the 4x SP-Caps and 2x MLCC clusters ?

thanks

 

[MSIDavY]

Based on the update yesterday. Can we please have clarification.

Are the gaming x trio 3080 cards now shipping with 4x SP-Caps and 2x MLCC clusters ?
Did any of the gaming x trio 3080 cards ship to consumers without the 4x SP-Caps and 2x MLCC clusters ?

thanks

Hi Neil.

All MSI GeForce RTX 3080 GAMING X TRIO cards that have shipped out since the beginning of production, which include media review samples, have five SP-Caps and one MLCC group.

More information can be found here:
https://www.msi.com/news/detail/f96e42572185f05478d84f901007f164

 

[bollwerk]

It's like saying 'Kleenex' instead of 'tissue paper' or 'Band-Aid' rather than 'adhesive bandage.' Just because Buildzoid went off on a rant doesn't make everyone capacitor experts. Yes, he's technically correct ... and also being quite pedantic about it. The meaning of POSCAP is clear from the article text. If someone sneezed and said "I need a Kleenex" you wouldn't respond with, "Sorry, I don't have that particular brand of tissue paper," would you? Or maybe a ten minute rant about the difference between Kleenex and various other tissue papers.

I'm not sure that's a good apples to apples comparison, but perhaps it's just not that big of a deal. I expect a site dedicated to tech to be more accurate/pedantic than casual conversation. It's not the end of the world, but I don't think it's out of line to hold the bar high for accuracy in reporting on a site like this. Note that it's not just here. I've seen the terminology confused on many sites, so it's clearly a widespread usage. But ultimately doesn't make that much difference to me. I just wanted to try and be helpful. If my help is not wanted, I will refrain from it in the future.