Multiple 3.8cat issues

kinney · Oct 19, 2003

Well the net is screaming with claims of the 3.8 cats killing cards and monitors.. I encountered my own problems.
First, refreshforce does not work well with cat3.8s as it keeps reverting my monitor specific driver setting to default or PNP monitor. When it does set to the model the settings applied to it do not take effect half the time.

Also, I was doing my usual the other night and the only thing out of the ordinary was that I uninstalled my NV audio drivers because I use an audigy and had previously disabled the NV sound.
So I rebooted and the bios would come up but XP would not load, I got a black screen with a little green dot in the middle. I went into safe mode and removed the video drivers then auto detected them back in and got into windows normally again.
Plus 3dmark2k3 ran incredibly sluggish with the 3.8s, around 2-6FPS.
I suppose from the added heat the drivers introduce.

While all ATI drivers have more issues than NV's, this is proof positive that all the ranting and raving the fanboys do for ATI is a moot point.
ATIs drivers, while they've came a long way are still definitely NOT NV quality as I've used NV for years and not encounted a TENTH of the issues with NV cards. This is my first new ATI card in a LONG time and in 2 months I've encountered more issues with drivers than I did with NV over 2 years.

Not that I would buy a FX over a Radeon now but I kinda wish I wouldve just picked up a GF4 4200 to replace my GF3 and waited for the NV40.
But the card works fine (with my intervention), so oh well.
I actually never had ONE issue over many years with NV drivers. But I consider myself lucky.

The message is clear, NV drivers still > than ATI. Drivers and stability are more important than faster hardware.

Now I'm back with the 3.7s which dont give me many problems.

Just a warning to those of you out there who havent upgraded to the 3.8s yet if you own Radeons.
And if your on the fence about a future video card purchase, heed my words. But that doesnt mean buy a FX over a R300(+). You might want to hold off though IMO.

edit- Besides heat increases, there are also reports of the drivers putting monitors out of range and killing them with these drivers.

As well as absolutely destroying 8500 performance with this release.
I'd highly suggest NOT using these drivers.

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1700+@ 1900+, Epox 8RDA, 512MB DDR266 DualDDR, Radeon 9800 Pro, Audigy, Logitech Z560s, MX500, Maxtor 80gig 8mb cacheEdited by kinney on 10/19/03 05:47 AM.

speeduk · Oct 19, 2003

I second that!

<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=7000747" target="_new"> 3D-2001 </A>
<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=1284380" target="_new"> 3D-03 </A>
 120% overclocker (cheapskate)

TheGreatGrapeApe · Oct 19, 2003

Yeah I posted about this a little while back (Friday);

<A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=373928#373928" target="_new">http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=373928#373928</A>

Also theGURUof3D has a little blurb on it;

<A HREF="http://www.guru3d.com/news.php#641" target="_new">http://www.guru3d.com/news.php#641</A>

Driver Heaven (and the Neon Cowboy) has a good look (with temp probe) but you need to be a member to read it. Here's the pre-blurb;

<A HREF="http://www.driverheaven.net/index.php?s=#article_7371" target="_new">http://www.driverheaven.net/index.php?s=#article_7371</A>

The Gist of it (some figures) Room Temp: 25.9c, Idle = 5mins after boot. Load = 3Dmk03 after test 4. And it's an R9800Pro, even though the blurb just says R9800.

ATI_____Cat 3.7_; VPU @ Idle: 41.5c Under Load: 47.6c Memory @ Idle: 40.9c Under Load: 52.1c

ATI_____Cat 3.8_; VPU @ Idle: 40.9c Under Load: 46.3c Memory @ Idle: 40.9c Under Load: 52.1c

Omega Cat 3.8.5; VPU @ Idle: 47.1c Under Load: 55.6c Memory @ Idle: 40.9c Under Load: 52.1c

So in this case the ATI 3.8(s) were actually a bit cooler than the 3.7(s), but the leaked Omegas 3.8.5 were signinficantly warmer. So it may vary and may depend on what you're doing.

This mainly affects overclocked and tweaked cards the most. Like I said in the thread, if you're overclocking it may affect you. For most it probably won't kill their card. The problem is the first people to upgrade are usually also those who 'tweak'.

As for RefreshForce, anyone complaining about blown monitors after that has just one person to blame. IT's a great tool, but it needs to be used with care, I am surprised that you'd have issues just based on a specific driver. However I'm not sure if it's really ATI's issue. I'm sure someone will find a workaround, perhaps version 1.11 or 1.20.

To me the jury's still out, som issues and some ctradictory info. However, the Omegas have given me a fast-writes issue (which I didn't have before), but turning it off solved that (but it's the first time I've had to disable it). Didn't have that problem with the regular CAT 3.8 drivers, or any previous ones.

BTW, nV had a similar problem with the FX series where even the Windows 3D pipes screensaver would cause it to reach over 100C which is over 210F, they needed a work around there too. Just FYI.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

ufo_warviper · Oct 19, 2003

You would rather upgraded to a Ti4200 over a Radeon 9800 Pro? You've got to be joking, right? A Radeon 9800 Pro is vastly superior to the Ti 4200.

My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!

kinney · Oct 19, 2003

I didnt mean a repost, theres no way I can possibly monitor this forum :tongue: .
As far as the FX, thats news for me.

While I could rant about how much I love the features of my new radeon, I'm just going off my personal experiences... I was under the impression they were up to NV quality in the driver department.
But thats because everyone pounded me with pro-ATI arguements in this forum when I was partially correct but since I hadnt had experience with a new ATI card I couldnt say much... LOL

Now I have one and ATI hasnt changed as much as people are wishing they had.

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1700+, Epox 8RDA, 512MB DDR266 DualDDR, Radeon 9800 Pro, Audigy, Logitech Z560s, MX500, Maxtor 80gig 8mb cache

kinney · Oct 19, 2003

I know, I was just speaking of something that wouldve tided me over until NV40.
For me, if I wasnt going to go top of the line I would get the best bang for the buck... which is really a 9600Pro.
But my point was an alternative card that does not use ATI's drivers.
For NV its tough to beat a 4200, even though it is slower.. I dont really use my 9800 to its fullest anyway I just have extra $$ to blow.
And the FX series I would prefer to stay away from.

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1700+, Epox 8RDA, 512MB DDR266 DualDDR, Radeon 9800 Pro, Audigy, Logitech Z560s, MX500, Maxtor 80gig 8mb cache

coolsquirtle · Oct 19, 2003

would u rather have a R9800pro that doesn't work 50% of the time and u have to constantly changing driver and settings or a Ti4200 that can run all the current games at acceptable range and works ALL THE TIME?

admit it fanATics when it comes to drivers, nVidia OWNS! there are clearly alot more people that wants stabilty over performance and nVidia is doing that.

RIP Block Heater....HELLO P4~~~~~
120% nVidia Fanboy
bring it fanATics~~ nVidia PWNS all!
SCREW aBOX! LONG LIVE nBOX!!

TKS · Oct 19, 2003

I have had 4 ATI cards since the 8500 AIW and have yet to have EVEN ONE problem with their drivers.

Everything is specific to individuals and one cannot decide things based upon that. For instance, just because someone uses a rifle in a murder doesn't mean hunting should go away alltogether....even if 10 out of a hundred people have a problem with the drivers...remember that 90 out of that hundred don't. Pessimistic as you are remember that with computers...the pessimist will always, always, always fail...try compiling on Linux with a pessimistic attitude or even Tshooting a hardware problem with windows with the same attitude. It will seal you in the end.

And just because these drivers aren't stable doesn't mean you should trash the whole lot. I ran the Det 44.03's forever because they were more 'stable' than any of the other crap that was being dished out...but I don't think all their drivers suck just because I didn't get to install the newest one on my pewter. I rolled with it and reverted and waited for a stable release.

So until you can understand that what you are doing is really a stereotypical assumption that one bad experience means that everything sux, you won't get any sympathy from me. Who am I? Well I'm an ATI user and yes I'm an Nvidia user...but I am a performance Fanboi.

hrmm...I remember a few other stereotypical assumptions that were held by a few pillowcase wearing gentlemen in the early 20th century. You know...rode around on horses...burnt crosses....confused lot.

Bottom line is...my 8500 AIW is stable as can be. My 9500 Pro is rock solid....Just to be certain...I looped 3dmark03 on both machines for about 6 hours this morning. Everything went perfectly fine. In fact...that's something I couldn't do with the early Cat's...I couldn't loop my benchmarking utility cuz it would have a buffer overrun fault...not anymore. Before you go warning people about things you consider crappy, you might want to just stick to the facts...it's better for people to hear the truth instead of speculation.

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I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman! Homer Simpson

kinney · Oct 20, 2003

LOL dude, are you saying I'm not entitled to my opinion? Or that I'm in the same league as the KKK because Ive spent a few thousand dollars on video cards over the years, I have bought TWO Radeon 9800s and I get peeved when a certain company releases official driver releases that are crap???!!! And I'm not supposed to spread my experiences for my friends and other users here??
Give me a break man.

Before you go warning people about things you consider crappy, you might want to just stick to the facts...it's

UM excuse me but if I dont base my opinion off of my own personal experience whose retoric am I supposed to repeat? Yours? Some reviews?
No, I spend my f*cking money on this [-peep-] and I expect it to work as I see it should. Its not "speculation" its facts as I've experienced.
If it doesnt I let everyone know my problems encountered, because they deserve to know and I dont buy that brand again. Capice?

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1700+, Epox 8RDA, 512MB DDR266 DualDDR, Radeon 9800 Pro, Audigy, Logitech Z560s, MX500, Maxtor 80gig 8mb cache

ufo_warviper · Oct 20, 2003

What I rather have, & what I'd rather pay for are 2 different things. remember, I was the "FanATic" that bought 3 nV Ti4200 cards that I really enjoy using and because they were really cheap. However, if Morphius unclenched his fists and there was a "red" PCB 9800 Pro on the one hand a "blue" PCB Ti4200 on the other, I would take the red pill, ermm, I mean card.

would u rather have a R9800pro that doesn't work 50% of the time

With what confidence level can you cerify your statistic?

My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!

ufo_warviper · Oct 20, 2003

Both nV & ATi have had less than stellar drivers the past few months (actually just weeks for ATi). You might as well not buy from nV either. Go buy a Parhelia, I haven't heard complaints on Matrox drivers lately.

That was just sarcasm, but the FACT is that the latest releases of drivers from ATi & nVidia BOTH SUCK.

My OS features preemptive multitasking, a fully interactive command line, & support for 640K of RAM!Edited by UFO_WARVIPER on 10/20/03 06:28 AM.

TKS · Oct 20, 2003

Nah, opinion away man. But when you base your opinion on CAT 3.8's that have been out less than a week and you insist on them being CRAP then you get on my nerves that's all. When a new game comes out, I don't immediately call it crap just because it causes my graphics card not to perform up to par...or just because I get fragged a whole lot. The same should be with any software...drivers included.

Once again, don't feel you can't give your opinion...that isn't what I'm getting at. What I am getting at is that experience isn't something you gain overnight on a given thing. You can't test drive a corvette and instantaneously know if it is a piece of crap or a work of art. The same goes for any computer software.

It was and still is my opinion that you are hasty to judge and point fingers at something which may or may not be a 'piece of crap' release. Thousands of other people have found them to be the steadiest and soundest release yet. Hundreds find them...well...crappy. I know when I feel a driver release is crap, I say that just this driver release is crap...I don't trash the whole company. That's what got on my nerves...not that you think the Cat 3.8s are crap...just that you think that all of ATI's drivers are crap. I guess I don't really care one way or the other...because people will look at this thread and they will know I am right. They will see the truth in my post and realize that you are either 1) too dense to know you're wrong in this case or 2) too stubborn to change your mind. Hopefully you see the err and correct it...if not, oh well...you're entitled to your opinion. *shrug*

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I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman! Homer Simpson

lhgpoobaa · Oct 20, 2003

Im running the cat 3.8's at the moment and everything is ok.
Havnt treid the 3.8 omegas as i head about their issues.

I am not a AMD fanboy.
I am not a Via fanboy.
I am not a ATI fanboy.
I AM a performance fanboy.
And a low price fanboy.

Regards,
Mr no integrity coward.

lhgpoobaa · Oct 20, 2003

oh and a question.
what software can i use to monitor the GPU's temp?

(its a r9800pro)

I am not a AMD fanboy.
I am not a Via fanboy.
I am not a ATI fanboy.
I AM a performance fanboy.
And a low price fanboy.

Regards,
Mr no integrity coward.

eden · Oct 20, 2003

Check first if it has a on-die diode or a thermistor.

--
<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/album.html" target="_new">This just in, over 56 no-lifers have their pics up on THGC's Photo Album! </A> :lol:

kinney · Oct 20, 2003

Nice, that was incredibly snide!

I wasnt saying we should burn ATI into the ground, in fact I praise ATI (for other things).
I knew the ATI defense team here would strike out at me for my opinion.

1) too dense to know you're wrong in this case or 2) too stubborn to change your mind.

Thats pretty low blow at me personally... I attack ATI (who I paid recently about $600 of my money), and you attack me?
Well I dont know how #1 can be true as it is opinion and can't be proved one way or the other. Besides the other hundreds of people having identical problems. And #2, well.. I've invested heavily in both ATI and NV cards so I consider myself always up for a gamble with these companies. I've been burnt by ATI before, and I buy again?
If anything that proves my stupidity to not learn from the past, not my stubborness.

To attack my experiences is downright ignorance. And reveals either a bias within yourself or against me.
But your wasting your breath, anyone reading this thread will either take my words as they are, a user experience or decide to not pay any attention...
either way all I'm out is a little time, I'm simply trying to inform others.
Don't try to make it look as if what I've experienced is somehow invalid to others.

You are being incredibly immature in dealing with my story with the 3.8s.. its a true story so how can I possibly be wrong about this? Or ATIs/NV driver support track record which everyone here knows?
And your loss, you should spend your time helping someone out on the forum instead of this crap.

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1700+, Epox 8RDA, 512MB DDR266 DualDDR, Radeon 9800 Pro, Audigy, Logitech Z560s, MX500, Maxtor 80gig 8mb cacheEdited by kinney on 10/20/03 00:31 AM.

kinney · Oct 20, 2003

I was just describing my recent experiences here for the greater good of the collective here at THG.
Just so happens I mustve owned NV for all those years their drivers were near flawless... go figure.
Lucky me eh?

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1700+, Epox 8RDA, 512MB DDR266 DualDDR, Radeon 9800 Pro, Audigy, Logitech Z560s, MX500, Maxtor 80gig 8mb cache

kinney · Oct 20, 2003

Oh and PS to the mouthy man who tried to connect me and my 3.8cat experience to the KKK, Black Panthers, a formation of a new worldwide coalition for the future overthrow of George Bush and the rise of the Columbian drug cartel to the world front-

If ATI is going to attempt to play with NV in the driver dept. and try to do a monthly driver release, they shouldnt be releasing drivers that do all the issues contained in my first post for multitudes of users.
Driver releases are a bit more critical to not break monitors by putting them out of range nor make a system unable to boot into windows... neither games nor drivers are supposed to do such things.
Maybe beta NV would, but official ATI drivers do such things?
Pretty bewildering developments, simply in ATIs attempt to rush out on a monthly release schedule.

Since you're mud slinging, there are alot of your type out there too, they end up on TV and in the Inquirer for their experience with the extraterrestrial and strange white lights that blind them and push their crops into strange formations.

After the KKK, the fairy godmother, santa and the 40 thieves come to give you solice that I'm not really exaggerating my own experience or others... um.... we'll talk then.

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1700+, Epox 8RDA, 512MB DDR266 DualDDR, Radeon 9800 Pro, Audigy, Logitech Z560s, MX500, Maxtor 80gig 8mb cacheEdited by kinney on 10/20/03 00:51 AM.

endyen · Oct 20, 2003

Get an infrared thermometer. They are really cool. I have one for electrical troubleshooting. It tells me that my 9600 pro is running 5 degrees cooler than the 9800 pro, with the cat 3.8s
Personally I own 3 ati cards and 4 nvidia cards. Not all detonators are good for all nvidia cards. Usually they work best for the newest cards. With ati the drivers work differently. Some sets of cats seem to be for older cards. I have loaded a lot of detonators and quite a few cats, the odd one will always require an unload.

Thor1182 · Oct 20, 2003

<sarcasim>Hey TKS, did he insult your mother or something? I thought this was a computer hardware forum, not Jerry Springer. Although Jerry can be more interesting.</sarcasim>
NV has released some crapy drivers det 45-51. There is a posibility that ATI screwed up a bit with its new drivers that will only show up in special cases. It is important to point these out so a list can be generated for each company to know what to fix...I mean what else are some forums for? <sarcasim>What if you ATI people needed some humility beat into you to remind you that ATI is not a bunch of gfx gods.</sarcasim>

Please note the use of <sarcasim></sarcasim> meaning that statements within are not to be taken seriously! I mean really people!

I'm a Computer Science and Electrical Engineering Student, not English, nor will I ever claim to be.

kinney · Oct 21, 2003

Oh its just ridiculous. People attack me because I dont say what they want to hear.
If you reread my first post I was completely fair and only presented my experience, and resulting opinion.

In fact i even said that i wouldnt suggest a FX over a Radeon... its so funny though that I did degrade the 3.8s and now I'm attacking whatever kind of ATI consortium hes imagining there is...

Sorry buddy but i love my 9800(pro)!

I just tell it like it is and some can't handle that. If your experience is different, well congratu-fukulation.

I guess I'm a stability fanboi.
:tongue:

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1700+, Epox 8RDA, 512MB DDR266 DualDDR, Radeon 9800 Pro, Audigy, Logitech Z560s, MX500, Maxtor 80gig 8mb cache

TKS · Oct 21, 2003

Dude, it's not you personally...the only way this gets personal is if I say something about your personal life...not my opinion of how you appear to me. It's just that...my opinion. My opinion and a subway token will get me on the subway. Take it or leave it...throw it out...spit on it...do what you will. Just don't make this personal...cuz it isn't.

As for attacking your experiences...If it appears to you that I did, I am sorry. I didn't mean to pizzle on your situation or make it seem like it wasn't valid. It is a valid viewpoint and a sitaution that happened to one user. My only aim in the post was to make sure everyone knew that it is situational and happened to one user. That's all..nothing more, nothing less.

Anyways, hope you don't take personal offense at anything...sorry about the snideness (if that's an actual conjugation of the word) and hope your luck changes for the better.

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I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman! Homer Simpson

TKS · Oct 21, 2003

Just so ya know...I'm not 'one of you ATI people.' I still run 50% Nvidia and 50% ATI. I'm 'one of you performance people'

But thanks for the sarcasm. :tongue:

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I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman! Homer Simpson

TKS · Oct 21, 2003

Oh yeah, and as far as the KKK and panther stuff...where you pullin that out at? I made a loose comparison showing one extreme view in a different situation to your opinion (which I was attempting to bridge as an extreme view in this situation but which evidently didn't work)...I did not attempt to 'connect you to the KKK, Black Panthers, etc.' FYI

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I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman! Homer Simpson

kinney · Oct 21, 2003

OMG i just wrote a book response and lost it.. oh well... all i basically said is thank you, you're an OK guy in my book and obviously intelligent.
You gained a fan.

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1700+, Epox 8RDA, 512MB DDR266 DualDDR, Radeon 9800 Pro, Audigy, Logitech Z560s, MX500, Maxtor 80gig 8mb cache
I AM NOT A ATI FANBOY, I AM NOT A NV FANBOY, I AM A STABILITY FANBOY

Multiple 3.8cat issues

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