My First Real Build

[kadegray]

I'm looking for some recommendations and/or constructive criticism.

Prioritys for this one is:
1. To be as quiet as possible.
2. To have the maximum ram the motherboard can support.
3. As future proof as I can get it (within justifiable price).
4. As fast as possible while within justifiable price.

Ultimate uses for this Build:
I will be useing 3DSMAX with vRay.
And I want to do heavy particle effects with maxscript in max and perhaps other packages.
Also video editing with Adobe Premier and After Effects.
And stuff in Vue.
And i'm sure ill find other system resource choking stuff to do.

Enclosure: Antec P182
Power Supply: Seasonic M12 Modular 600W (Previously: Silverstone Strider 1000W (ST1000-NV))
Motherboard: Asus P6T Deluxe
Processor: Intel Core i7 920
Processor Heatsink: Noctua NH-U12P SE 1366
RAM: OCZ DDR3 PC3-12800 6GB Platinum XTC 1600mhz (OCZ3P1600LV6GK) (Previously: OCZ DDR3 PC3-10666 4GB Platinum 1333mhz (MMOC3P13334GK) x3)
Graphics Card: NVIDIA Quadro FX 570
OS Hard Drive: Hitachi CinemaStar 7K1000.B 320GB x2 (in RAID mode 1)
Hard Drive: Hitachi CinemaStar 7K1000.B 1TB x2 (in RAID mode 1)
Operating System: Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate OEM (decided on this because Windows 7 will be out June/July, I will get that and Vista support might get discontinued anyway, also i have herd a rumor that microsoft will give windows 7 to people who brought Vista)
BD-RE Drive: Lite-On DH-4B1S

Average Price = 3265AUD (Previously: 3700AUD)

 

[n3f0ur]

That looks like it. You may want to swap the stock cpu cooler out for a quieter one like this:

http://www.arctic-cooling.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1_42&mID=245

 

[kadegray]

That looks like it. You may want to swap the stock cpu cooler out for a quieter one like this:

http://www.arctic-cooling.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1_42&mID=245

Thank you, I was going to leave it till after the build to find a processor heatsink.
And that one is perfect.

 

[xthekidx]

You are seriously overestimating your power needs. 1000w is massive overkill, you could run 5 of those systems off of that one PSU if it had enough connectors. This will be more than plenty:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139008

That ram you picked out is not Triple channel and its too high of voltage for your CPU. You have to get a kit that runs at 1.65v or lower. Just get 2 of these kits:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227381

Since you are in AUS likely you will not have the same exact ram, but that PSU is fairly widespread. If you can't find that Ram, Look for G. Skill, OCZ, or Mushkin ram for the best deals. Corsair if nothing else can be found, but I think they mark their prices up way too high. Your MB will be able to support 6 sticks of ram and it will be plenty for what you are doing. More than likely 6gb will be fine, read this: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/memory-module-upgrade,2264.html

 

[xthekidx]

On the Cooler, the best quiet cooler is the Noctua NH-U12P SE 1366 for the i7, but its quite a bit more expensive than the AC unit. However I would recommend getting it if you get a cooler at all. Since you are getting a cooler, I am assuming you are interested in overclocking, which you should do to get the max performance out of your CPU. The Noctua cooler will do much better than the AC will.

 

[kadegray]

You are seriously overestimating your power needs. 1000w is massive overkill, you could run 5 of those systems off of that one PSU if it had enough connectors. This will be more than plenty:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139008

That ram you picked out is not Triple channel and its too high of voltage for your CPU. You have to get a kit that runs at 1.65v or lower. Just get 2 of these kits:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227381

Since you are in AUS likely you will not have the same exact ram, but that PSU is fairly widespread. If you can't find that Ram, Look for G. Skill, OCZ, or Mushkin ram for the best deals. Corsair if nothing else can be found, but I think they mark their prices up way too high. Your MB will be able to support 6 sticks of ram and it will be plenty for what you are doing. More than likely 6gb will be fine, read this: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/memory-module-upgrade,2264.html

I am glad I posted on this forum.

With the power supply, I don't understand how 400w is enough? help me out here.
Originally I was looking at the Antec Signature 850, and before that I was looking for a fanless power supply which you can get in 400w, are they any good.

I did not realize that ram was a higher than recommended voltage of 1.65, that ram is listed in the Qualified Vendors List, or have i missed something?
I was wondering 1333mhz vs 1600mhz, 12gb of 1333 is cheaper than 6gb of 1600mhz. (the board supports only 3x2gb sticks of 1600mhz, and 6x2gb sticks of 1333mhz)
And the board takes DIMM not SDRAM.

I read that article, that was just what I needed to read.

 

[xthekidx]

That board takes the ram I showed you, DIMM stands for Dual in-line memory module, as in 1 stick of ram is a DIMM. DDR3 SDRAM is what you need. I am pretty sure that MB will support 12gb at 1600mhz, but I could be wrong about that.

Don't get a fanless PSU. I actually meant to link the 550vx, but copied the wrong link on accident, however I think the 400cx would also probably be plenty for your PC. That GPU you picked is a low-end GPU and doesn't need a ton of power. (I think its like the same as an nVidia 8600GT hardware-wise, but I might be wrong about that). Your entire system most likely will not use more than 200-250w when at its maximum stress load, unless you overclock a lot.

 

[kadegray]

That board takes the ram I showed you, DIMM stands for Dual in-line memory module, as in 1 stick of ram is a DIMM. DDR3 SDRAM is what you need. I am pretty sure that MB will support 12gb at 1600mhz, but I could be wrong about that.

Don't get a fanless PSU. I actually meant to link the 550vx, but copied the wrong link on accident, however I think the 400cx would also probably be plenty for your PC. That GPU you picked is a low-end GPU and doesn't need a ton of power. (I think its like the same as an nVidia 8600GT hardware-wise, but I might be wrong about that). Your entire system most likely will not use more than 200-250w when at its maximum stress load, unless you overclock a lot.

Thanks for the explanation.
The manual in the qualified vendor list pages, on the page listing the 1600mhz ram says down the bottom that you should only have 1 per channel: "Due to Intel spec definition, X.M.P. DIMM-1600 are supported for one DIMM per channel." (3 channels and 2 bays in each channel as you would already know)

Why not a fanless PSU? The case will have a good flow down the bottom for the PSU & HDD's.

I might goto a Midrange Quadro GPU now that, if I get that ram you suggested I will be saveing a bunch(around 500AUD).

For your estimate that it will only use 200-250w. If i were to find out the wattage use on all the components in the machine would is total between your 200-250w.
I should probably go through my science/physics notes to remember the difference between watts and voltage. This might be where I've gone wrong.

 

[xthekidx]

Watts=Amps*Voltage

The GPU is typically the most consumptive component in the system, with a basic GPU like that your power consumption will be very low.

 

[globalgoon]

Will your OS support 12gigs or RAM?

 

[xthekidx]

I am not aware of any Fanless PSU's that are well made. You do NOT want your PSU to overheat as it drastically increases the chance of failure and lowers your efficiency. Most well made PSU's are inaudible anyways over the sound of other components in your system, anything that is 30db and below I doubt you will notice.

 

[kadegray]

Will your OS support 12gigs or RAM?

I think so.. i assumed windows XP/Vista 64 bit would support 12gb.
I want Vista Ultimate 64bit, if I have trouble with Vista 64bit I will go to XP 64bit.

 

[xthekidx]

Will your OS support 12gigs or RAM?

Vista Ultimate 64bit can (theoretically) support up to 128GB of ram.

 

[xthekidx]

I think so.. i assumed windows XP/Vista 64 bit would support 12gb.
I want Vista Ultimate 64bit, if I have trouble with Vista 64bit I will go to XP 64bit.

XP 64bit has more bugs than Vista does (vista is actually quite good now, it has come a long way since its release) and it has terrible support from microsoft, I wouldn't go there. Vista Home Premium is probably all you need, ultimate isn't worth it IMO. And buy an OEM license, not a retail version. You will pay like 40% less for the exact same thing in an OEM.

 

[kadegray]

I am not aware of any Fanless PSU's that are well made. You do NOT want your PSU to overheat as it drastically increases the chance of failure and lowers your efficiency. Most well made PSU's are inaudible anyways over the sound of other components in your system, anything that is 30db and below I doubt you will notice.

I cant sleep if I leave my monitor on, it makes a high pitched beep similar to what the tube TV's make when they get turned off but quieter, and sometimes I hear the beep sometimes when its turned off (it definitely comes from the monitor cause when I got closer to it its clearer, so its not all in my head, it goes away if I turn the power off at the wall (its an LCD monitor)).

But I understand that the case has 4 fans of a similar size that will come on most PSU's anyway and they do about 17db.

 

[kadegray]

XP 64bit has more bugs than Vista does (vista is actually quite good now, it has come a long way since its release) and it has terrible support from microsoft, I wouldn't go there. Vista Home Premium is probably all you need, ultimate isn't worth it IMO. And buy an OEM license, not a retail version. You will pay like 40% less for the exact same thing in an OEM.

What does OEM mean exactly?

http://www.megaware.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=246&products_id=74747

287 Australian dollars = 208.3907 U.S. dollars, is that alright?, its OEM, cheapest i can find in Australia.

 

[kadegray]

For that Ram (OCZ3P1600LV6GK) you showed me, how do I make sure its compatable, like does it need to be on the QVL?

Are you using it?

 

[xthekidx]

Yes I am using it on the lower model of MB that you are looking at, and I know people who are using that ram on the MB you are looking at. It will work with your MB.

 

[kadegray]

Yes I am using it on the lower model of MB that you are looking at, and I know people who are using that ram on the MB you are looking at. It will work with your MB.

Nice, thanks, saved be a bunch.

 

[geofelt]

The P6T deluxe will support 24gb. Unfortunately, there are no DDR3 4gb modules out yet that are compatible. In the mean time, 12gb is reasonable, and if you later on felt that you wanted 24gb, then it is not so hard to replace ram.
To verify ram compatibility go to the ram vendor's web site, and access their configurator.
Corsair, Kingston, Patriot, OCZ and others have them.
Their compatibility list is more current than the motherboard vendor's QVL lists which rarely get updated.
Enter your mobo or PC, and get a list of compatible ram sticks.

Vista home premium will support up to 16gb of ram. If you ever want more, you are looking at business or ultimate editions.
Look for an upgrade version instead of OEM.
Upgrade is a retail version which gives you support from microsoft, unlike OEM(AKA system builder),
and allows a more hassel-free ability to transfer the os to a different pc(motherboard).
For $10, microsoft will send you the 64 bit DVD.
There is a legitimate two step instalation process to install an upgrade version
You install vista from the cd, but do not initially enter the product code.

Just tell the install which version you bought, and do not activate.
After it installs, you have a fully functional vista for 30 days.
Step 2 is to insert the cd again, while running vista and then do an upgrade.
This time, enter your product code, and activate.
After activation. you may delete the initial version which is named windows.old.

For some good research on quiet computing, go to www.silentpcreview.com. They have some tests on quiet psu's and other components.
Your power needs are primarily determined by the vga card. I am not familiar with the requirements of workstation cards, so check that out.
In general, Corsair is a safe, quiet, and good quality psu. It is quiet, but not silent.

 

[specialk90]

Hi there.

I should be able to give you some good advice because I also use Premier Pro & After Effects (CS4).

1) Get an ATI FireGL V3600 256MB($150 US) or V5600 512MB($330). TomsHardware just did an article comparing a slew of workstation video cards including 3dsMax tests, and the V3600 & V5600 consistently beat more expensive nvidia cards.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/quadro-fx-4800,2258-6.html
I am astonished at the performance of ATI's cards because their prices are so low compared to nvidia. I have been looking for a different card to use with AE as my 8800GT 512mb really sucks. In my quest, I learned that the 8800GTS 640mb can be "soft-modded" to a Quadro FX4600 which is certainly a possibility as it is an older card that should be able to found for little cost. However, the ATI cards are looking good too.

2) Your pc will certainly need more than a 400w PSU. At the very least 500w. The max power a good 500w PSU can output is 500 x .83=415w. Also important is this power is at a certain temp(40 C I think) and once the internal temp starts climbing above that temp, the power output starts dropping. Yes, you need a PSU with a fan. The PC Power & Cooling PSUs are among the best, if not the best, and they produce their "Silencer" series, which are rather quiet. They make a 500w Silencer for $80(US) and a 610w for $110(US).
3) RAM: the motherboard states that with 12GB of ram(ie all 6 slots full), the max speed is 1333MHz - This is correct. This is exactly the same with their new server motherboards, which have even more slots due to being dual-cpu and their max speed drops even further to 1066 with all slots full(16 max, 8 per cpu).
4) CPU Heatsink/Fan: You WANT to install this when you are installing everything because it usually requires access to the back of the motherboard. I prefer Zalman 9700 + 1366 bracket($40 US) for a few reasons: 1) it is one of the best; 2) it is one of the quietest and comes w/ a fan speed controller; 3) it doesn't get full of dust like so many others do(anything with small space between the cooling 'fins' just ask to get clogged).
5) Hard drives: I hope you have saved some money on other parts because this is the best place to spend more and get better performance, guaranteed. I like that you are already thinking Raid 1 with 1TB drives; however, you should take that a step further.
Here are a couple of ideas:
A) Get 2 500GB drives for the OS, Apps & media cache and run them in Raid 0; however, only use the first 65GB giving you 130GB total and leave the rest completely blank. This is called "Short Stroking". TomsHardware just tested this w/Hitachis. Here is the article.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/short-stroking-hdd,2157.html
Keep the 2-1TB drives in Raid 1.

B) Get 4-500GB drives and run them in Raid 10, which combines 2 Raid 1 mirrors and stripes data between them like Raid 0. Thanks to Intel's awesome Matrix Raid, you can also create a Raid 0 array with the same 4 drives. This is what I use for both of my PCs. Depending on whether you want to risk having to reinstall your OS & Apps, you could put the OS on the Raid 0. Or put it on the Raid 10 if you don't want to worry about it. Using the Raid 0 for media cache and page file will certainly improve performance. And storing video and other files on the Raid 10 will be far faster than just a Raid 1.

No matter how fast your CPU & Ram are, hard drives wil be a bottleneck. That is why increasing hard drive performance, leads to immediately noticeable performance gains in your programs as well as overall system responsiveness and speed.

I can give you a step by step process of setting up Raid. I have done it so many times that I can recall just about everything from memory. It is very simple.

6) CASE: very nice choice. I have the P180 and it has very good noise suppression. Their 3-speed fans are so nice and quiet that I bought an extra 120mm for the front of the P180 case in front of the 2-drive bay and also 4 or 5 for my Lian-Li case.

 

[kadegray]

The P6T deluxe will support 24gb. Unfortunately, there are no DDR3 4gb modules out yet that are compatible. In the mean time, 12gb is reasonable, and if you later on felt that you wanted 24gb, then it is not so hard to replace ram.
To verify ram compatibility go to the ram vendor's web site, and access their configurator.
Corsair, Kingston, Patriot, OCZ and others have them.
Their compatibility list is more current than the motherboard vendor's QVL lists which rarely get updated.
Enter your mobo or PC, and get a list of compatible ram sticks.

Vista home premium will support up to 16gb of ram. If you ever want more, you are looking at business or ultimate editions.
Look for an upgrade version instead of OEM.
Upgrade is a retail version which gives you support from microsoft, unlike OEM(AKA system builder),
and allows a more hassel-free ability to transfer the os to a different pc(motherboard).
For $10, microsoft will send you the 64 bit DVD.
There is a legitimate two step instalation process to install an upgrade version
You install vista from the cd, but do not initially enter the product code.

Just tell the install which version you bought, and do not activate.
After it installs, you have a fully functional vista for 30 days.
Step 2 is to insert the cd again, while running vista and then do an upgrade.
This time, enter your product code, and activate.
After activation. you may delete the initial version which is named windows.old.

For some good research on quiet computing, go to www.silentpcreview.com. They have some tests on quiet psu's and other components.
Your power needs are primarily determined by the vga card. I am not familiar with the requirements of workstation cards, so check that out.
In general, Corsair is a safe, quiet, and good quality psu. It is quiet, but not silent.

Thanks for your advise.

I think ill just go with 6gb of 1600mhz, from what I have read I think ill only need 6gb, and in the future when 4gb sticks are out I may think about getting those.

I'm just going to get Vista Ultimate, I don't want to risk finding out later that i cant do something.
Are you saying that with OEM's you don't get support?, I will do what you suggested about updating home premium if it is cheaper than just buying a non OEM version(?).

Thanks for the link, I have been on there before, I will look properly now.

 

[kadegray]

Hi there.

I should be able to give you some good advice because I also use Premier Pro & After Effects (CS4).

1) Get an ATI FireGL V3600 256MB($150 US) or V5600 512MB($330). TomsHardware just did an article comparing a slew of workstation video cards including 3dsMax tests, and the V3600 & V5600 consistently beat more expensive nvidia cards.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/quadro-fx-4800,2258-6.html
I am astonished at the performance of ATI's cards because their prices are so low compared to nvidia. I have been looking for a different card to use with AE as my 8800GT 512mb really sucks. In my quest, I learned that the 8800GTS 640mb can be "soft-modded" to a Quadro FX4600 which is certainly a possibility as it is an older card that should be able to found for little cost. However, the ATI cards are looking good too.

2) Your pc will certainly need more than a 400w PSU. At the very least 500w. The max power a good 500w PSU can output is 500 x .83=415w. Also important is this power is at a certain temp(40 C I think) and once the internal temp starts climbing above that temp, the power output starts dropping. Yes, you need a PSU with a fan. The PC Power & Cooling PSUs are among the best, if not the best, and they produce their "Silencer" series, which are rather quiet. They make a 500w Silencer for $80(US) and a 610w for $110(US).
3) RAM: the motherboard states that with 12GB of ram(ie all 6 slots full), the max speed is 1333MHz - This is correct. This is exactly the same with their new server motherboards, which have even more slots due to being dual-cpu and their max speed drops even further to 1066 with all slots full(16 max, 8 per cpu).
4) CPU Heatsink/Fan: You WANT to install this when you are installing everything because it usually requires access to the back of the motherboard. I prefer Zalman 9700 + 1366 bracket($40 US) for a few reasons: 1) it is one of the best; 2) it is one of the quietest and comes w/ a fan speed controller; 3) it doesn't get full of dust like so many others do(anything with small space between the cooling 'fins' just ask to get clogged).
5) Hard drives: I hope you have saved some money on other parts because this is the best place to spend more and get better performance, guaranteed. I like that you are already thinking Raid 1 with 1TB drives; however, you should take that a step further.
Here are a couple of ideas:
A) Get 2 500GB drives for the OS, Apps & media cache and run them in Raid 0; however, only use the first 65GB giving you 130GB total and leave the rest completely blank. This is called "Short Stroking". TomsHardware just tested this w/Hitachis. Here is the article.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/short-stroking-hdd,2157.html
Keep the 2-1TB drives in Raid 1.

B) Get 4-500GB drives and run them in Raid 10, which combines 2 Raid 1 mirrors and stripes data between them like Raid 0. Thanks to Intel's awesome Matrix Raid, you can also create a Raid 0 array with the same 4 drives. This is what I use for both of my PCs. Depending on whether you want to risk having to reinstall your OS & Apps, you could put the OS on the Raid 0. Or put it on the Raid 10 if you don't want to worry about it. Using the Raid 0 for media cache and page file will certainly improve performance. And storing video and other files on the Raid 10 will be far faster than just a Raid 1.

No matter how fast your CPU & Ram are, hard drives wil be a bottleneck. That is why increasing hard drive performance, leads to immediately noticeable performance gains in your programs as well as overall system responsiveness and speed.

I can give you a step by step process of setting up Raid. I have done it so many times that I can recall just about everything from memory. It is very simple.

6) CASE: very nice choice. I have the P180 and it has very good noise suppression. Their 3-speed fans are so nice and quiet that I bought an extra 120mm for the front of the P180 case in front of the 2-drive bay and also 4 or 5 for my Lian-Li case.

Thanks for the time and thought you put into this, priceless stuff.

1) I want to go for quality over quantity, but I don’t want to spending heaps on the
Best/fastest.

Does FireGL like match/beat Quadro in quality? I've been told go with the Quadros, and I’m not
Biased in the openGL v DirectX thing, but I want to go Directx for 3DSMAX but I don’t think its
there’s a big difference though.

4) I will purchase it when I buy the processor and motherboard, that’s a good idea.

5a) This is Gold, I have already read that article, it’s a really original idea, but I don’t like
that they have a shorter life span, I was thinking going for a 15k rpm drive and putting it in a
Enclosure that silences it. But I think I’ll try that another day.

Do you have drives that are Short Stroked? And does the raid 1 short stroked drives make there
life longer, because they don’t get as hot because I assume they get used less?

5b) I like this idea, but what speed differences are we talking about if we where to compare
this and the short stroking to just 1 drive on its own? (like to hear this from someone
experienced with these configs, I have trouble understanding the difference in worthwhile speed
from just reading there specs.

And thanks heaps for the offer I will take you up on that, I have no experience in this stuff.

6) Yes, I had to get the case right. It looks really great, nice and minimal. Good to hear the
fans are that quiet.

Just to point out, the case has dust filters on all the places where air comes in, so for the
heatsink for the processor I did initial look for one without the tiny gaps but then decided it
Didn’t mater because no dust will get in anyway.

So I was wondering if your P180 came with the same filters and how effective are they?

 

[geofelt]

15K drives are not necessarily faster for your application. 15k drives are for servers and are optimized for fast random access. Data transfer lags behind drives like the velociraptor. Go to www.storagereview.com , and access their performance database. Use the one that comes closest to your usage pattern, Here is a link showing the maximum sustained data transfer rates of many drives:
http://www.storagereview.com/php/benchmark/bench_sort.php

 

[specialk90]

No, data xfer does not lag behind the Velociraptor. In fact, the Seagate Cheetah 15k.6 is about 30-40% faster in ave. reads/writes and the brand new 15k.7 is over 160MB/s ave. read/write. However, they certainly are designed for servers and random access/IOP.

My P180 didn't come with any fan filters but my Lian-Li did and they are great. Just an idea for the fan setup in your case: I have the Zalman's fan blowing inside with the rear fan also blowing inside over the Zalman and the top fan is blowing up/out. I tested this vs Zalman + rear both blowing out & top blowing down to see what had lower motherboard & cpu temps and my current setup had lower temps.

The GL and Directx shouldn't matter as far as I know. The testing used Dx 9.0c.

Hard drives: if you are worried about reliability/endurance, you can always get the Seagate ES.2 or WD RE3 or Hitachi "Ultra"star(Deskstar is their desktop version). These drives are "Enterprise Class" drives designed to run 24/7 under constant load and they have more durable mechanics: this is why they also cost more. The WD Raptor/Velociraptor is also an enterprise class drive and also 10k rpm. They cost a lot more too.

Here is another HDD setup: get 2 74GB Raptors to run in Raid 0 for OS/Apps and media cache and 2-1TB drives for storage.

Do you have PPro/AE CS3 or CS4? I read yesterday that PPro CS4 is finally a 64bit native program but I haven't found anything on AE. My experience at getting better performance in PPro & AE has a lot to do with >4GB ram, a good Workstation video card and fast drives. I know AE CS3-4 both allow you to set the amount of VRAM(video card ram) usage and the more, the better. I am seriously considering the ATI V3600 or nvidia 8800GTS 640MB(soft-mod to FX4600) as both are cheap. My 8800GT 512MB, which is slightly more powerful than the GTS, is horribly slow & pathetic in AE/PPro. With PPro, fast drive speeds for 'media cache' helps too.

1) Do you import 3ds video into AE as a project file or as uncompressed or compressed video?
2) What video format do you mostly use in AE & PPro?

Those 2 questions should help determine whether you need higher MB/s as uncompressed video for windows(.avi) runs 1GB per 13 seconds. And other uncompressed codecs can run even higher.