Name The Spheres : The Sequel

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Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

(With a new director :), thanks William (which btw is my firstname
translated in English, that's a sign :) for the idea).

I want to kill/incapacitate an opponent, without exterior signs. How
can I do it ?

("Kill/incapacitate" is quite blurry : making him mad with Mind answer
the question, fror example).

My answers in another post.

Guillaume
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

In the borning days of the third millennium, Guillaume JAY wrote:
>(With a new director :), thanks William (which btw is my firstname
>translated in English, that's a sign :) for the idea).
>
>I want to kill/incapacitate an opponent, without exterior signs. How
>can I do it ?

Entropy: Cause a weak spot on his aorta that will burst and cause a massive,
fatal hemorrhage.
Matter: Convert some of the iron in his blood into arsenic.
Forces: Fried liver anyone?
Mind: Disable his autononous nervous system. Automatic heart attack.
Time: Slow the rhythm of one chamber of his heart so the pumping rhythm is
disrupted.
Prime: Cut off the flow of Prime to his thoughts and he will go into a coma.
Spirit: Remove his soul. He will cease to function.
Correspondence: Teleport an internal organ to New Jersey.
Life: Duh. Just turn him off.

--
Brian Merchant (remove 'remove' and 'example' from email)

Puritanism didn't keep the puritans from sinning, it just kept
them from enjoying it.
--Father Joe Breighner
Country Roads
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Brian Merchant wrote:

> In the borning days of the third millennium, Guillaume JAY wrote:
>
>>(With a new director :), thanks William (which btw is my firstname
>>translated in English, that's a sign :) for the idea).
>>
>>I want to kill/incapacitate an opponent, without exterior signs. How
>>can I do it ?
>
>
> Entropy: Cause a weak spot on his aorta that will burst and cause a massive,
> fatal hemorrhage.

Life, not entropy.

> Matter: Convert some of the iron in his blood into arsenic.

Sorry, that's life. Blood is governed by the sphere of life as long as
it is in your body.

> Forces: Fried liver anyone?

If you mean increase the temperature in his liver (intact), then you
need life.

> Mind: Disable his autononous nervous system. Automatic heart attack.

Life again.

> Time: Slow the rhythm of one chamber of his heart so the pumping rhythm is
> disrupted.

Li... ah, you known.

> Prime: Cut off the flow of Prime to his thoughts and he will go into a coma.

Need mind.

> Spirit: Remove his soul. He will cease to function.

Well, no one barred archmages, I suppose.

> Correspondence: Teleport an internal organ to New Jersey.

Life.

> Life: Duh. Just turn him off.

Most of the above.

William
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:44:31 +0200, Guillaume JAY
<gjay_diespammer-die@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

> My answers in another post.

And I'm not going to answer myself, I'm not knowledgeable
enough.

For example, for Time, I was thinking about something like
slowing his heart. But must I associate Life with Time to do it ?

(And please, if possible, tell me the level needed).

Guillaume
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

In the borning days of the third millennium, Guillaume JAY wrote:
>On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:44:31 +0200, Guillaume JAY
><gjay_diespammer-die@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>
>> My answers in another post.
>
> And I'm not going to answer myself, I'm not knowledgeable
>enough.
>
> For example, for Time, I was thinking about something like
>slowing his heart. But must I associate Life with Time to do it ?

Oh, you want to use ONLY that Sphere, instead of just that Sphere being the
primary. That makes it harder.

Entropy: Cause a weak spot on his aorta that will burst and cause a massive,
fatal hemorrhage.
[Probably needs Life 3 to do that. You could probably increase the odds of a
fatal stroke, but that's not very reliable]

Matter: Convert some of the iron in his blood into arsenic.
[change it from iron to oxygen so an organic compound is not involved]

Forces: Fried liver anyone?
[You need either Correspondence or Life to do this. Instead, disrupt the
electrical signals in his brain.]

Mind: Disable his autononous nervous system. Automatic heart attack.
[This should work on its own]

Time: Slow the rhythm of one chamber of his heart so the pumping rhythm is
disrupted.
[Once again, you probably need either Correspondence or Life. You could
probably simply slow time in the region of his torso and cause death by
lack of blood flow.]

Prime: Cut off the flow of Prime to his thoughts and he will go into a coma.
[no change]

Spirit: Remove his soul. He will cease to function.
[no change]

Correspondence: Teleport an internal organ to New Jersey.
[Need Life 3. Instead, increase the distance between the synaptic gap. He'll
go into brain death instantly.]

Life: Duh. Just turn him off.
[no change]

--
Brian Merchant (remove 'remove' and 'example' from email)

Puritanism didn't keep the puritans from sinning, it just kept
them from enjoying it.
--Father Joe Breighner
Country Roads
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 07:24:04 -0400, Brian Merchant
<remove.cheebie2001@comcast.example.net> wrote:

>Matter: Convert some of the iron in his blood into arsenic.
>[change it from iron to oxygen so an organic compound is not involved]

>Forces: Fried liver anyone?
>[You need either Correspondence or Life to do this. Instead, disrupt the
>electrical signals in his brain.]

Why correspondence for this one, and not for Matter ?
>Time: Slow the rhythm of one chamber of his heart so the pumping rhythm is
> disrupted.
>[Once again, you probably need either Correspondence or Life. You could
>probably simply slow time in the region of his torso and cause death by
>lack of blood flow.]

Why correspondence for this one, and not for Matter ?

And why Life ?


>Prime: Cut off the flow of Prime to his thoughts and he will go into a coma.
>[no change]

Which level ?

>Spirit: Remove his soul. He will cease to function.
>[no change]

Which level ?

>Correspondence: Teleport an internal organ to New Jersey.
>[Need Life 3. Instead, increase the distance between the synaptic gap. He'll
>go into brain death instantly.]

Why life ? And why life 3 ?

In fact, I'm curious about sphere associations.

I was thinking about killing the guy by teleporting enough sand in
(or just in front of) his nose and mouth.
So, Correspondance.
Should I need Matter ? Why ? Which Level ? Same for life ?
As far as I understand the spheres (and I'm Ars Magica-influenced),
sphere are "verbs", not "words"
For example, Matter 1 is "Perceive Matters", not "Soft matters"
Matter 2 is "Transmutate simple things", not "Hard matters".
In my above example, my first idea was to teleport sand, it's Corr +
Matter, since I'm teleporting matters. But that's an Ars Magica Idea,
Technique + Form. Nowhere in the Sphere of Matters description can I
find something telling me "you need level 3 to affect (using other
sphere) diamonds", for example. So, for teleporting things, it seems
to me I don't need the Matter Sphere (or maybe, just only one level)

I'm not sure I'm clear, am I ?

Guillaume
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Guillaume JAY wrote:

> On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 07:24:04 -0400, Brian Merchant
> <remove.cheebie2001@comcast.example.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Matter: Convert some of the iron in his blood into arsenic.
>>[change it from iron to oxygen so an organic compound is not involved]
>
>
>>Forces: Fried liver anyone?
>>[You need either Correspondence or Life to do this. Instead, disrupt the
>>electrical signals in his brain.]
>
>
> Why correspondence for this one, and not for Matter ?
>
>>Time: Slow the rhythm of one chamber of his heart so the pumping rhythm is
>> disrupted.
>>[Once again, you probably need either Correspondence or Life. You could
>>probably simply slow time in the region of his torso and cause death by
>>lack of blood flow.]
>
>
> Why correspondence for this one, and not for Matter ?
>
> And why Life ?
>
>
>
>>Prime: Cut off the flow of Prime to his thoughts and he will go into a coma.
>>[no change]
>
>
> Which level ?
>
>
>>Spirit: Remove his soul. He will cease to function.
>>[no change]
>
>
> Which level ?
>
>
>>Correspondence: Teleport an internal organ to New Jersey.
>>[Need Life 3. Instead, increase the distance between the synaptic gap. He'll
>>go into brain death instantly.]
>
>
> Why life ? And why life 3 ?
>
> In fact, I'm curious about sphere associations.
>
> I was thinking about killing the guy by teleporting enough sand in
> (or just in front of) his nose and mouth.
> So, Correspondance.
> Should I need Matter ? Why ? Which Level ? Same for life ?
> As far as I understand the spheres (and I'm Ars Magica-influenced),
> sphere are "verbs", not "words"
> For example, Matter 1 is "Perceive Matters", not "Soft matters"
> Matter 2 is "Transmutate simple things", not "Hard matters".
> In my above example, my first idea was to teleport sand, it's Corr +
> Matter, since I'm teleporting matters. But that's an Ars Magica Idea,
> Technique + Form. Nowhere in the Sphere of Matters description can I
> find something telling me "you need level 3 to affect (using other
> sphere) diamonds", for example. So, for teleporting things, it seems
> to me I don't need the Matter Sphere (or maybe, just only one level)
>
> I'm not sure I'm clear, am I ?
>
> Guillaume


I... can not remember the exact rule right now. However, it boils down
to "You need enough of the sphere governing your target to effect it to
teleport it". So matter 2 lets you teleport basically any non-magical
matter, while you need forces two to teleport human-scale forces and
forces 4 to teleport greater-than human scale forces.

This is effectively a special rule, though there is a generalized rule
that says "if what you are doing is this and that, you need spheres to
do this and that". So, turning sand to blood is matter 2 for the sand
and life 2 for the blood.

William
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

William wrote:

> I... can not remember the exact rule right now. However, it boils down
> to "You need enough of the sphere governing your target to effect it to
> teleport it". So matter 2 lets you teleport basically any non-magical
> matter, while you need forces two to teleport human-scale forces and
> forces 4 to teleport greater-than human scale forces.

> This is effectively a special rule, though there is a generalized rule
> that says "if what you are doing is this and that, you need spheres to
> do this and that". So, turning sand to blood is matter 2 for the sand
> and life 2 for the blood.

Not quite. The rule is you need enough of a sphere governing the target
to alter it with another sphere.

You can teleport people who aren't you with Correspondence 4 (portals).
In order to teleport a dude's arm, but not the rest of him, you'd need
Correspondence 4 and Life 3.

Same with using Entropy to weaken the lining of someone's blood vessel,
or using Matter to transform the iron in their blood into arsenic.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 08:30:04 -0400, William
<wilit0613@postoffice.uri.edu> wrote:
>> Entropy: Cause a weak spot on his aorta that will burst and cause a massive,
>> fatal hemorrhage.
> Life, not entropy.

Why ?

I assume you mean Life Only.

Creating weak spots anywhere is the domain of entropy, isnt'it ?

If I want to create a weak spot in a tire, it can be done by entropy,
without having to use matter, or am I wrong ?

>> Matter: Convert some of the iron in his blood into arsenic.
> Sorry, that's life. Blood is governed by the sphere of life as long as
>it is in your body.

Okay, this I understand.

>> Time: Slow the rhythm of one chamber of his heart so the pumping rhythm is
>> disrupted.
> Li... ah, you known.

Why ?

It's Time 3, localized, for me, as I read the book.

Guillaume
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 08:41:15 -0400, William
<wilit0613@postoffice.uri.edu> wrote:
>I... can not remember the exact rule right now. However, it boils down
>to "You need enough of the sphere governing your target to effect it to
>teleport it". So matter 2 lets you teleport basically any non-magical
>matter, while you need forces two to teleport human-scale forces and
>forces 4 to teleport greater-than human scale forces.
>
>This is effectively a special rule, though there is a generalized rule
>that says "if what you are doing is this and that, you need spheres to
>do this and that". So, turning sand to blood is matter 2 for the sand
>and life 2 for the blood.

Any book reference ?

But, in this case, if I want to teleport someone, does it mean
that I must use corr., matter (clothings), life (body), Spirit (soul)
and maybe force and prime so everything is teleported ?

Or is all of this included in one kind of Meta Life Pattern ?

Guillaume
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Guillaume JAY" <gjay_diespammer-die@wanadoo.fr> wrote
in message
news:8143d0lo9tifr32017hobse03sko9vqain@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 08:30:04 -0400, William
> <wilit0613@postoffice.uri.edu> wrote:
> >> Entropy: Cause a weak spot on his aorta that will
burst and cause a massive,
> >> fatal hemorrhage.
> > Life, not entropy.
>
> Why ?
>
> I assume you mean Life Only.
>
> Creating weak spots anywhere is the domain of entropy,
isnt'it ?


Entropy 4, as the target is a Life pattern. But yes,
Entropy alone is sufficient


> If I want to create a weak spot in a tire, it can be
done by entropy,
> without having to use matter, or am I wrong ?


Entropy 3, Affect Predictable Pattern, yes.


> >> Matter: Convert some of the iron in his blood into
arsenic.
> > Sorry, that's life. Blood is governed by the sphere
of life as long as
> >it is in your body.
>
> Okay, this I understand.
>
> >> Time: Slow the rhythm of one chamber of his heart
so the pumping rhythm is
> >> disrupted.
> > Li... ah, you known.
>
> Why ?
>
> It's Time 3, localized, for me, as I read the book.


Spheres affect whole patterns, not their components. You
would need life to separate the chamber part of the Joe
Bob pattern for the Time to influence.

> Guillaume


--
Juho Lankinen
--
Many people would sooner die than think.
In fact, they do.
--Bertrand Russell
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 16:48:18 +0300, "Juho Lankinen"
<lankinenNO@SPAMwelho.com> wrote:

>Spheres affect whole patterns, not their components. You
>would need life to separate the chamber part of the Joe
>Bob pattern for the Time to influence.

Okay, that's clear. I undertand now.

Any book reference ?

Guillaume
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 07:06:11 -0400, Brian Merchant
<remove.cheebie2001@comcast.example.net> wrote:

>In the borning days of the third millennium, Guillaume JAY wrote:
>>(With a new director :), thanks William (which btw is my firstname
>>translated in English, that's a sign :) for the idea).
>>
>>I want to kill/incapacitate an opponent, without exterior signs. How
>>can I do it ?
>
>Entropy: Cause a weak spot on his aorta that will burst and cause a massive,
> fatal hemorrhage.

You can do that.

>Matter: Convert some of the iron in his blood into arsenic.

You can't do that. All of the iron in his blood is bound up in
hemoglobin. You could instead transmute the air he is breathing
into a toxic compound

>Forces: Fried liver anyone?

The problem is delivering the Forces without doing any damage to
his exterior.

>Mind: Disable his autononous nervous system. Automatic heart attack.

The problem is, Mind and "nervous system" aren't the same thing.
However you can just kill him with a Mind bolt. That won't leave
physical traces.

>Time: Slow the rhythm of one chamber of his heart so the pumping rhythm is
> disrupted.
>Prime: Cut off the flow of Prime to his thoughts and he will go into a coma.
>Spirit: Remove his soul. He will cease to function.
>Correspondence: Teleport an internal organ to New Jersey.

Won't work. That's specifically forbidden except as part of a Life
combo because Correspondence can't sever the connection between
things on its own.
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

In the borning days of the third millennium, Guillaume JAY wrote:
>On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 07:24:04 -0400, Brian Merchant
><remove.cheebie2001@comcast.example.net> wrote:
>
>>Matter: Convert some of the iron in his blood into arsenic.
>>[change it from iron to oxygen so an organic compound is not involved]
>
>>Forces: Fried liver anyone?
>>[You need either Correspondence or Life to do this. Instead, disrupt the
>>electrical signals in his brain.]
>
> Why correspondence for this one, and not for Matter ?

You are targeting a specific location, so you need to be able to "see" it.
The matter one simply converts all the oxygen to arsenic.

>>Time: Slow the rhythm of one chamber of his heart so the pumping rhythm is
>> disrupted.
>>[Once again, you probably need either Correspondence or Life. You could
>>probably simply slow time in the region of his torso and cause death by
>>lack of blood flow.]
>
> Why correspondence for this one, and not for Matter ?
>
> And why Life ?

see above.

>>Prime: Cut off the flow of Prime to his thoughts and he will go into a coma.
>>[no change]
>
> Which level ?

Probably 4.

>>Spirit: Remove his soul. He will cease to function.
>>[no change]
>
> Which level ?

4 or 5.

>>Correspondence: Teleport an internal organ to New Jersey.
>>[Need Life 3. Instead, increase the distance between the synaptic gap. He'll
>>go into brain death instantly.]
>
> Why life ? And why life 3 ?

You are directly affecting a living thing, so you need Life. Life 3 because
humans are complex creatures.

> In fact, I'm curious about sphere associations.
>
>I was thinking about killing the guy by teleporting enough sand in
>(or just in front of) his nose and mouth.
>So, Correspondance.

You need matter to be able to affect the sand. Matter 2 since it's a simple
substance.

--
Brian Merchant (remove 'remove' and 'example' from email)

Puritanism didn't keep the puritans from sinning, it just kept
them from enjoying it.
--Father Joe Breighner
Country Roads
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Guillaume JAY" <gjay_diespammer-die@wanadoo.fr> wrote
in message
news:9da3d0dl7vcfsmgj2ftajllntnvhpd8c4s@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 16:48:18 +0300, "Juho Lankinen"
> <lankinenNO@SPAMwelho.com> wrote:
>
> >Spheres affect whole patterns, not their components.
You
> >would need life to separate the chamber part of the
Joe
> >Bob pattern for the Time to influence.
>
> Okay, that's clear. I undertand now.
>
> Any book reference ?

Argh.

<looks upon the library of mage books on the shelf,
sadly lacking the 2nd edition mage>

Wait . . .

There, p. 157 of the revised corebook:

"Despite its capacity to bend space and distance,
Correspondence functions only on whole patterns unless
combined with the various Pattern Spheres. That is, its
impossible to teleport away someone's heart with
Correspondence alone."

I know this is on the Correspondence, but the conceptual
similarity of Time and Correspondence (time/space) might
suggest that their requirements/applications are also
similar.

On Time, sadly, the only multi-Sphere effects are under
the Time 4 part, and then as triggers.

So I cannot give you a book reference that denies
explicitly that you can affect a part of a Pattern with
Time alone, but the reference I gave _does_ suggest so.
YMMV.

> Guillaume
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"William"
> Brian Merchant wrote:

> > Entropy: Cause a weak spot on his aorta that will burst and cause a
massive,
> > fatal hemorrhage.

> Life, not entropy.

Entropy 4 allows you to directly effect living patterns.

> > Matter: Convert some of the iron in his blood into arsenic.

> Sorry, that's life. Blood is governed by the sphere of life as long as
> it is in your body.

Correct. Matter isn't the best way to directly approach a living subject,
unless you drop an anvil on him.

> > Forces: Fried liver anyone?

> If you mean increase the temperature in his liver (intact), then you
> need life.

You could use Forces to alter the temprature of a room by shifting all the
heat into one place, microwaving something important, or making the victim
die of exposure in a room that still has an average temperature of 70' F.

> > Mind: Disable his autononous nervous system. Automatic heart attack.

> Life again.

Mind effects thoughts and the subconscious. Though you CAN destroy their
faculty to function, and effectively make them mentally uncapable of even
feeding themselves.

> > Time: Slow the rhythm of one chamber of his heart so the pumping rhythm
is
> > disrupted.

> Li... ah, you known.

Yeah. You can't use time to intersect one pattern without the Pattern
Sphere.
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Shane Graves wrote:

> Entropy 4 allows you to directly effect living patterns.

Only as a whole. "Blight of aging" is somewhat less subtle than "tiny
weakness in blood vessel in brain causes fatal stroke."
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Stephenls"
> Shane Graves wrote:

> > Entropy 4 allows you to directly effect living patterns.

> Only as a whole. "Blight of aging" is somewhat less subtle than "tiny
> weakness in blood vessel in brain causes fatal stroke."

True. But I think you could push "heart disease" though.
 
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Shane Graves wrote:

> "Stephenls"
>
>>Shane Graves wrote:
>
>
>>>Entropy 4 allows you to directly effect living patterns.
>
>
>>Only as a whole. "Blight of aging" is somewhat less subtle than "tiny
>>weakness in blood vessel in brain causes fatal stroke."
>
>
> True. But I think you could push "heart disease" though.
>
>

Yeah, but that's basically "blight of aging" focused on a single portion
of the body rather than the whole - you need Life 3 to make it specific.

If you want to make someone unhealthy, you are affecting Life. I
generally rule that even the much-loved undogeable poison gas attacks
are Life, not matter. The poison is just a part of the focus/ritual. If
it isn't, the target gets a chance to dodge just like vs a lightning bolt.

William
 
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"Brian Merchant"
<remove.cheebie2001@comcast.example.net> wrote in
message
news:i874d05l5klmi8rqsnfnmomb44djkshoub@4ax.com...
> In the borning days of the third millennium, Guillaume
JAY wrote:
> >On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 07:24:04 -0400, Brian Merchant
> ><remove.cheebie2001@comcast.example.net> wrote:

> >>Spirit: Remove his soul. He will cease to function.
> >>[no change]
> >
> > Which level ?
>
> 4 or 5.

Gilgul is Spirit 5, requiring obscene amounts of
successes. And it will not make the subject die or cease
to function, "only" permanently incapable of magic.

> --
> Brian Merchant


--
Juho Lankinen
--
I've always wanted to go to Switzerland to see
what the army does with those wee red knives.
-- Billy Connolly
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:44:31 +0200, Guillaume JAY
<gjay_diespammer-die@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

>(With a new director :), thanks William (which btw is my firstname
>translated in English, that's a sign :) for the idea).
>
>I want to kill/incapacitate an opponent, without exterior signs. How
>can I do it ?
>
>("Kill/incapacitate" is quite blurry : making him mad with Mind answer
>the question, fror example).
>
> My answers in another post.

OK, I'll try this again:

Life: Just to give him a heart attack.
Matter: To turn the room's air into carbon dioxide
Mind: To use a mind blast on him and put him into a coma.
Forces: Increase gravity to about 10 gs. Then let him suffocate
Spirit: Summon a spirit with the power to kill people tracelessly.

Correspondence: Can't be used that way.
Entropy: Can't be used that way unless the character
has some kind of preexisting life endangering condition
that won't leave a mark.
Prime: Can't be used that way.
Time: Can't be used that way.
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

> > >>Spirit: Remove his soul. He will cease to function.
> > >>[no change]
> > >
> > > Which level ?
> >
> > 4 or 5.
>
> Gilgul is Spirit 5, requiring obscene amounts of
> successes. And it will not make the subject die or cease
> to function, "only" permanently incapable of magic.
>

But he said soul, not avatar. Admittedly, the process would likely be very
similar. What would likely happen to a person without a soul in mage
cosmology? He obviously wouldn't become a wraith at death. Would he be
comatose? Aware but listless? Controlled entirely by his avatar (now there
is an interesting mad scientist experiment; excise the soul and put the
avatar in charge to see what it does)? Isn't there a wraith power that
permanently hollows out a mortal so the wraith can possess them until the
body falls apart a few weeks later? The effect of a soul destroying may be
similar to that. Of course, if the caster gets it wrong he may just burn out
the higher spirit essence and wind up with what is effectively a Spectre in
a human body.

-Essex
 
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"Essex" <mopperma@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote in message
news:3HfBc.1439$ri.118347@dfw-read.news.verio.net...
> > > >>Spirit: Remove his soul. He will cease to function.
> > > >>[no change]
> > > >
> > > > Which level ?
> > >
> > > 4 or 5.
> >
> > Gilgul is Spirit 5, requiring obscene amounts of
> > successes. And it will not make the subject die or cease
> > to function, "only" permanently incapable of magic.
> >
>
> But he said soul, not avatar. Admittedly, the process would likely be
very
> similar. What would likely happen to a person without a soul in mage
> cosmology? He obviously wouldn't become a wraith at death. Would he be
> comatose? Aware but listless? Controlled entirely by his avatar (now
there
> is an interesting mad scientist experiment; excise the soul and put
the
> avatar in charge to see what it does)? Isn't there a wraith power that
> permanently hollows out a mortal so the wraith can possess them until
the
> body falls apart a few weeks later? The effect of a soul destroying
may be
> similar to that. Of course, if the caster gets it wrong he may just
burn out
> the higher spirit essence and wind up with what is effectively a
Spectre in
> a human body.

Hum. There is, as far as I am aware, no predecent in the books for
affecting a human soul as separate from the Avatar. I have, myself (and
notice the I myself, as I have no idea what the canon answer would be)
never differentiated between the "two".

For the effects you describe, I would use the Spirit sphere with Mind in
combination. Comatose, aware but listless, and the eroding of will for
demonic possession all fall under the purview of Mind, really, no matter
what your paradigm states the affected part of metaphysical anatomy is.

Being controlled entirely by one's avatar could be a combination of the
Spirit 5 (alter ephemera) and Mind 5 (subconscious control), or
something of the sorts.

Turning a person into a spectre would, in my opinion, be an Entropy 5 or
Mind 5 effect destroying all but the most base, self- and generally
destructive impulses. (for that is all a spectre is, right? take out all
the good in someone and what is left is the dark.)

> -Essex


--
Juho Lankinen
--
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Essex" <mopperma@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote in message
news:3HfBc.1439$ri.118347@dfw-read.news.verio.net...
> > > >>Spirit: Remove his soul. He will cease to function.
> > > >>[no change]
> > > >
> > > > Which level ?
> > >
> > > 4 or 5.
> >
> > Gilgul is Spirit 5, requiring obscene amounts of
> > successes. And it will not make the subject die or cease
> > to function, "only" permanently incapable of magic.
> >
>
> But he said soul, not avatar. Admittedly, the process would likely be very
> similar. What would likely happen to a person without a soul in mage
> cosmology? He obviously wouldn't become a wraith at death. Would he be
> comatose?
> -Essex


In Gehenna (Vampire: The Masquerade) there is an NPC with no soul. He is
just comatose.

-koomapotilas-
 
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