Navigation woes

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Someone lied to me.

Last night I plotted a simple route. Just one VOR between departure and
destination airports. No wind. How could things possibly go wrong?

After takeoff, I checked my flight log thing on the kneeboard. It said
to fly the 122 radial to the VOR, then to fly something like the 069
radial from it to the destination. It also said that the second leg of
the journey would be 55 km.

So after passing the VOR, I turned to my new heading and decided I'd
admire the scenery and/or annoy ATC for about 45 km, then begin my
descent on final.

When the DME - which, as far as I can tell, was functioning perfectly -
said I was 45 km from the VOR, I realised I couldn't see the airport
ahead of me. I looked around but couldn't locate it, so I finally
decided to check the map (something I try not to do).

I had overflown the destination airport by miles! EH?! How could that
have happened? It had no navigational aid of its own as far as I could
tell, and I hadn't touched a single knob on my radio stack anyway so my
equipment was still tracking that VOR. I checked the kneeboard one more
time and confirmed the 55 km distance between the VOR and the airport.

So....anyone wanna hazard a guess as to why I had to turn 180 and feel
pretty stupid? :)

Huw
 
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"Huw Roberts" <f@ke.com> wrote in message
news:IpKYd.951$X56.811@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...

> I had overflown the destination airport by miles! EH?! How could that
> have happened? It had no navigational aid of its own as far as I could
> tell, and I hadn't touched a single knob on my radio stack anyway so my
> equipment was still tracking that VOR. I checked the kneeboard one more
> time and confirmed the 55 km distance between the VOR and the airport.
>
> So....anyone wanna hazard a guess as to why I had to turn 180 and feel
> pretty stupid? :)

Which VOR and airports? (so we can play along at home :)

You could try looking on the Map and see if it matches the flight plan.

Did you watch the Flight Analysis? It might've shed some light on the
situation, too.

Also, if you flew FROM the VOR instead of TO it (or vice versa), you might
have simply flown 45km in the wrong direction!
 
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Huw,

Any chance of providing the route.

Cheers

Geoff

"Huw Roberts" <f@ke.com> wrote in message
news:IpKYd.951$X56.811@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> Someone lied to me.
>
> Last night I plotted a simple route. Just one VOR between departure and
> destination airports. No wind. How could things possibly go wrong?
>
> After takeoff, I checked my flight log thing on the kneeboard. It said
> to fly the 122 radial to the VOR, then to fly something like the 069
> radial from it to the destination. It also said that the second leg of
> the journey would be 55 km.
>
> So after passing the VOR, I turned to my new heading and decided I'd
> admire the scenery and/or annoy ATC for about 45 km, then begin my
> descent on final.
>
> When the DME - which, as far as I can tell, was functioning perfectly -
> said I was 45 km from the VOR, I realised I couldn't see the airport
> ahead of me. I looked around but couldn't locate it, so I finally
> decided to check the map (something I try not to do).
>
> I had overflown the destination airport by miles! EH?! How could that
> have happened? It had no navigational aid of its own as far as I could
> tell, and I hadn't touched a single knob on my radio stack anyway so my
> equipment was still tracking that VOR. I checked the kneeboard one more
> time and confirmed the 55 km distance between the VOR and the airport.
>
> So....anyone wanna hazard a guess as to why I had to turn 180 and feel
> pretty stupid? :)
>
> Huw
 
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Matt B. wrote:
> "Huw Roberts" <f@ke.com> wrote in message
> news:IpKYd.951$X56.811@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>
>
>>I had overflown the destination airport by miles! EH?! How could that
>>have happened? It had no navigational aid of its own as far as I could
>>tell, and I hadn't touched a single knob on my radio stack anyway so my
>>equipment was still tracking that VOR. I checked the kneeboard one more
>>time and confirmed the 55 km distance between the VOR and the airport.
>>
>>So....anyone wanna hazard a guess as to why I had to turn 180 and feel
>>pretty stupid? :)
>
>
> Which VOR and airports? (so we can play along at home :)
>
> You could try looking on the Map and see if it matches the flight plan.
>
> Did you watch the Flight Analysis? It might've shed some light on the
> situation, too.
>
> Also, if you flew FROM the VOR instead of TO it (or vice versa), you might
> have simply flown 45km in the wrong direction!
>
>

I mess around with a lot of routes every night, but I'll try and figure
out which one it was and post the details here.

Oh, and I definitely didn't fly in the wrong direction. I stayed tuned
to the same VOR and flew exactly on course - when I checked the map I
saw that I had flown a perfect course to the airport...just about 15 km
too far!

Huw
 
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"Huw Roberts" <f@ke.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:IpKYd.951$X56.811@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> Someone lied to me.
>
> Last night I plotted a simple route. Just one VOR between departure and
> destination airports. No wind. How could things possibly go wrong?
>
> After takeoff, I checked my flight log thing on the kneeboard. It said to
> fly the 122 radial to the VOR, then to fly something like the 069 radial
> from it to the destination. It also said that the second leg of the
> journey would be 55 km.
>
> So after passing the VOR, I turned to my new heading and decided I'd
> admire the scenery and/or annoy ATC for about 45 km, then begin my descent
> on final.
>
> When the DME - which, as far as I can tell, was functioning perfectly -
> said I was 45 km from the VOR, I realised I couldn't see the airport ahead
> of me. I looked around but couldn't locate it, so I finally decided to
> check the map (something I try not to do).
>
> I had overflown the destination airport by miles! EH?! How could that
> have happened? It had no navigational aid of its own as far as I could
> tell, and I hadn't touched a single knob on my radio stack anyway so my
> equipment was still tracking that VOR. I checked the kneeboard one more
> time and confirmed the 55 km distance between the VOR and the airport.
>
> So....anyone wanna hazard a guess as to why I had to turn 180 and feel
> pretty stupid? :)
>
> Huw

Sounds a bit mixed up. You're talking of miles and kms within the same
navigaion example. Make sure you're not mixing that up. DME's usually
(except in russian A/C) indicate distances in Nautical Miles. Flight logs
(if not issued metric) should also indicate distances in Nautical Miles.
So first make sure you're always talking of the same measurement system. And
to facilitate things: use Nautical Miles as your basic measurement! It's
quite common in aviation.... ;-)
--
Oskar
(retired captain)
Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes...
 
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Oskar Wagner wrote:

> Sounds a bit mixed up. You're talking of miles and kms within the same
> navigaion example. Make sure you're not mixing that up. DME's usually
> (except in russian A/C) indicate distances in Nautical Miles. Flight logs
> (if not issued metric) should also indicate distances in Nautical Miles.
> So first make sure you're always talking of the same measurement system. And
> to facilitate things: use Nautical Miles as your basic measurement! It's
> quite common in aviation.... ;-)

Yeah, I really should pay more attention. In this case, however, I was
flying in a Baron. So wouldn't the DME use the same unit of distance as
my flight log?

Huw
 
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"Huw Roberts" <f@ke.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:ItMYd.17494$3A6.4478@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
> Oskar Wagner wrote:
>
>> Sounds a bit mixed up. You're talking of miles and kms within the same
>> navigaion example. Make sure you're not mixing that up. DME's usually
>> (except in russian A/C) indicate distances in Nautical Miles. Flight logs
>> (if not issued metric) should also indicate distances in Nautical Miles.
>> So first make sure you're always talking of the same measurement system.
>> And to facilitate things: use Nautical Miles as your basic measurement!
>> It's quite common in aviation.... ;-)
>
> Yeah, I really should pay more attention. In this case, however, I was
> flying in a Baron. So wouldn't the DME use the same unit of distance as
> my flight log?
>
> Huw

Well Huw, I can't specify that as I never use flight log's.... ;-)
One thing is for sure anyway: The DME shows the distance ALWAYS in NM
(Nautical Miles) regardless of any settings in the UNITS section. I'm not
sure about the flight log. I should test this in a future session. So maybe
you could indicate your settings and the proper routing so I could create
the same situation here and compare.
--
Oskar
(retired captain)
Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes...
 
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Erm...OK, I think I've sorted it...

Turns out that the flight log is in km - clearly marked - and the DME
(in the Baron I was flying, at least) is in nm - clearly marked. I feel
foolish. :D

Huw
 
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Huw,

Sometimes it's OK to lie :)

Cheers

Geoff


"Huw Roberts" <f@ke.com> wrote in message
news:EAYYd.407$qf7.289@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
> Erm...OK, I think I've sorted it...
>
> Turns out that the flight log is in km - clearly marked - and the DME
> (in the Baron I was flying, at least) is in nm - clearly marked. I feel
> foolish. :D
>
> Huw
 
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GeoffC wrote:
> Huw,
>
> Sometimes it's OK to lie :)
>
> Cheers
>
> Geoff
>

Haha! I would have, but that was such a spectacularly stupid mistake to
make that I fully deserve to look like an idiot. ;)

Huw
 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Hi Huw,

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 17:20:18 GMT, you wrote:

> Haha! I would have, but that was such a spectacularly stupid
> mistake to make that I fully deserve to look like an idiot. ;)

If it will soften the blow a bit, you could, instead of admitting to
an "idiot" mistake, just acknowledge that you've...

"experienced an ID 10 T error"

;-)

- --
Melissa

PGP Public Keys: http://www.willkayakforfood.tk

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nqWOfe7DOq1CI2oPpHQsku9l3g+ixL0/HK2zPBN8jDwRtbXV1e5vRJrYevwSO0Fv
twuQneBN1S0=
=jojJ
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Lawn Dart wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: RIPEMD160
>
> Hi Huw,
>
> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 17:20:18 GMT, you wrote:
>
>
>>Haha! I would have, but that was such a spectacularly stupid
>>mistake to make that I fully deserve to look like an idiot. ;)
>
>
> If it will soften the blow a bit, you could, instead of admitting to
> an "idiot" mistake, just acknowledge that you've...
>
> "experienced an ID 10 T error"
>
> ;-)
>
> - --
> Melissa
>
> PGP Public Keys: http://www.willkayakforfood.tk
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> iQCVAwUBQjR45TEYqNTZBqoEAQP0JQQAqUjShTdTdVgLjdQHa0d21+egRZBrQ2MZ
> Y48/7/eYCDe/JpmDlMregxgHpVcBd+fM8m9cuyCfOt8XuOqZU9P9MA6BtkNBQMQR
> nqWOfe7DOq1CI2oPpHQsku9l3g+ixL0/HK2zPBN8jDwRtbXV1e5vRJrYevwSO0Fv
> twuQneBN1S0=
> =jojJ
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Hehe, I'll remember that one. Cheers!

Huw
 
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"Huw Roberts" <f@ke.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:EAYYd.407$qf7.289@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
> Erm...OK, I think I've sorted it...
>
> Turns out that the flight log is in km - clearly marked - and the DME (in
> the Baron I was flying, at least) is in nm - clearly marked. I feel
> foolish. :D
>
> Huw

Don't worry. You're not the first...... and you won't be the last.... ;-)
--
Oskar
(retired captain)
Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes...
 

dallas

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"Huw Roberts"
> Haha! I would have, but that was such a spectacularly stupid mistake to
> make that I fully deserve to look like an idiot. ;)

Perhaps not even close to the funniest blunder this year... one of our
regulars couldn't figure out why when he set himself up at a specific
airport his aircraft was in the middle of the ocean and it sank every time.

(It was a seaplane base :)


Dallas
 
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"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
news:xK%Yd.9411$cN6.4294@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

> Perhaps not even close to the funniest blunder this year... one of our
> regulars couldn't figure out why when he set himself up at a specific
> airport his aircraft was in the middle of the ocean and it sank every
> time.
>
> (It was a seaplane base :)

:)
I guess in real life, a pilot would have figured that out during taxi.
 
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On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 06:23:25 +0100, Oskar Wagner wrote:

> One thing is for sure anyway: The DME shows the distance ALWAYS in NM
> (Nautical Miles) regardless of any settings in the UNITS section. I'm not
> sure about the flight log. I should test this in a future session. So maybe
> you could indicate your settings and the proper routing so I could create
> the same situation here and compare.

He's done it again!
Three cheers for The Cap'n! :)

Seriously though...is that a problem with RL instrumentation too?
It seems logical that if you fly between countries that use different units
of measurement, that the instrumention in an aircraft should also be
capable of handling those units of measurement.

In the sim I've had problems setting hectopascal in stead of inches.
And now I find out that the DME only reads NM.
This can't be the same IRL, can it?

--

Marcel
(Gear up, AP engaged...hey...what's that emergency light?)
 
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Dallas wrote:
> "Huw Roberts"
>
>>Haha! I would have, but that was such a spectacularly stupid mistake to
>>make that I fully deserve to look like an idiot. ;)
>
>
> Perhaps not even close to the funniest blunder this year... one of our
> regulars couldn't figure out why when he set himself up at a specific
> airport his aircraft was in the middle of the ocean and it sank every time.
>
> (It was a seaplane base :)
>
>
> Dallas
>
>

Heh, well, I'd like to think I would've figured /that/ one out...

Huw
 
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"Marcel Kuijper" <zoepetier_nothing_here@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:1kggwy1vbm6ng.k6ob84uhe8u5.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 06:23:25 +0100, Oskar Wagner wrote:
>
>> One thing is for sure anyway: The DME shows the distance ALWAYS in NM
>> (Nautical Miles) regardless of any settings in the UNITS section. I'm not
>> sure about the flight log. I should test this in a future session. So
>> maybe
>> you could indicate your settings and the proper routing so I could create
>> the same situation here and compare.
>
> He's done it again!
> Three cheers for The Cap'n! :)
>
> Seriously though...is that a problem with RL instrumentation too?
> It seems logical that if you fly between countries that use different
> units
> of measurement, that the instrumention in an aircraft should also be
> capable of handling those units of measurement.
>
> In the sim I've had problems setting hectopascal in stead of inches.
> And now I find out that the DME only reads NM.
> This can't be the same IRL, can it?
>
> --
>
> Marcel
> (Gear up, AP engaged...hey...what's that emergency light?)

Well, kinda yes and no ;-) In RL you will have to cope with different units
of measurements but only as long as non-aircraft based systems are
concerned. The DME will always indicate the distance in the unit it is
designed for as it is basically a airborne based runtime measurement. So in
a russian A/C (old style, like CS MiG 21) the distance will be indicated in
kms, even if it's flying in our airspace whereas our DME's will indicate NM
even in Russia.
Now for the heavier parts: atmospheric pressure (QNH, GFE) can be indicated
in in.Hg. (USA, Canada) or Hectopascal (Europe, Asia, dunno about other
countries e.g. Australia) or even mm Hg. (GUS countries). However in the GUS
countries also Hectopascal is available on the ATIS and on ATC.
Visibility is indicated in kms in Europe and GUS countries, in Nautical
Miles in USA and Canada, RVR is indicated in metres or feet. Cloud ceilings
can be indicated in metres AGL (GUS states and China) or feet AGL (all the
rest). Flight Levels are usually in feet, however part of GUS countries and
China use metric Flight Levels.
Depature and approach procedures can be based on feet QFE (AGL), feet QNH
(MSL) or even metres QFE (AGL). (to be continued... ;-)) )
Ohh, and you can get fuel by the US Gallon or by litres, but you will use it
in kgs or lbs on your A/C ;-)
btw the latter for very practical reasons. The amount of energy carried with
the fuel load corresponds to the MASS of the fuel and not to the VOLUME.
As you might see now it can become quite tricky to fly from one country to
another. But finally it's all a matter of gathering information and
preparation. If you're well prepared you won't be surprised.......
This list is by far not exhaustive but it might at least give you an idea
what you have to cope with if you're flying from Asia via Europe to the US
(or v.v.)......I really loved that ;-))
--
Oskar
(retired captain)
Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes...
 
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"Huw Roberts" <f@ke.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:6a3Zd.741$vB4.604@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net...
> Oskar Wagner wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> Huh? ;)
>
> Huw

Sorry, small correction. I was too much in a hurry. Visibility in the states
of course in Statute Miles (Nautical Miles would have been too easy).
Oh, and how about this one: Wind forecast in TAF (Terminal Area Forecast)
based on True North whereas wind indication in METAR based on Magnetic
North..... TBC ;-)))))
--
Oskar
(retired captain)
Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes...
 
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Oskar Wagner wrote:
> "Huw Roberts" <f@ke.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:6a3Zd.741$vB4.604@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net...
>
>>Oskar Wagner wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>Huh? ;)
>>
>>Huw
>
>
> Sorry, small correction. I was too much in a hurry. Visibility in the states
> of course in Statute Miles (Nautical Miles would have been too easy).
> Oh, and how about this one: Wind forecast in TAF (Terminal Area Forecast)
> based on True North whereas wind indication in METAR based on Magnetic
> North..... TBC ;-)))))

That's what I thought. Thanks Oskar.

Huw
 

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Dallas wrote:

> "Huw Roberts"
>
>>Haha! I would have, but that was such a spectacularly stupid mistake to
>>make that I fully deserve to look like an idiot. ;)
>
>
> Perhaps not even close to the funniest blunder this year... one of our
> regulars couldn't figure out why when he set himself up at a specific
> airport his aircraft was in the middle of the ocean and it sank every time.
>
> (It was a seaplane base :)
>
>
> Dallas
>
>

Is that the one that sparked this?

http://flightsims.vze.com/caravan

--

boB

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)
 
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"boB" <akitaREMOVECAPS77@excite.Icom> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:Mk5Zd.13495$U_4.1754@fe2.texas.rr.com...
> Dallas wrote:
>
>> "Huw Roberts"
>>
>>>Haha! I would have, but that was such a spectacularly stupid mistake to
>>>make that I fully deserve to look like an idiot. ;)
>>
>>
>> Perhaps not even close to the funniest blunder this year... one of our
>> regulars couldn't figure out why when he set himself up at a specific
>> airport his aircraft was in the middle of the ocean and it sank every
>> time.
>>
>> (It was a seaplane base :)
>>
>>
>> Dallas
>>
>>
>
> Is that the one that sparked this?
>
> http://flightsims.vze.com/caravan
>
> --
>
> boB
>
> U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
> Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)

One of my recent Flight1 C421 (btw a wonderful plane...) homebound
flights.....
http://owagner.photosite.com/FSpictures/ (select slideshow)
--
Oskar
(retired captain)
Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes...
 

dallas

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"Oskar Wagner"
> One of my recent Flight1 C421 (btw a wonderful plane...) homebound
> flights.....
> http://owagner.photosite.com/FSpictures/ (select slideshow)


Whoa! Oskar... he shoots... he scores!

boB better watch out, you've got competition!

Dallas
 

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