[SOLVED] Need an advice, please: After upgrading to a newer and more powerful CPU, I get the same results in games like with the older CPU

[misho8723]

Could someone from you help me with this?

Previously I had a Intel i5-4460 CPU, now I have i7-4790k.. but when I play games, I have pretty much the same fps like when I had the older one CPU.. what reason could there be for that? I mean, I know that DDR3 RAMs are old now, but still even compared to people who have the same CPU, GPU - GTX 1070 - and RAMs - 16 GB DDR3 - I have much worse results when it comes to fps in games

+ after installing the new CPU, 2 out of my 4 RAM slots stopped working - only A1 and A2 slots are working

+ here are my stats with CPU and GPU temperatures - http://i.picpar.com/0cjd.jpg

+ here is a benchmark for Far Cry New Dawn where they used i7-4770k, which is somewhat slower than my CPU, but they are getting way better results with that CPU and with my GPU

http://i.picpar.com/fNid.jpg

- my own screen of my results in FCND (with very often occuring drops even to 35 - 40 fps):

http://i.picpar.com/RPid.jpg

CPUID:

 

[misho8723]

Cpu pins complete the circuitry, bent pins ( usually on the outer edges as they are most vulnerable ) is never good for reliability or performance. Dual channel mode not working is a good sign something is up and your cpu is missing the doubled bandwidth it provides. FC5 as i said earlier loves memory bandwidth and new dawn is on the same engine. There are youtube comparisons between single vs dual channel for FC5, i suggest you take a look.

Oh god.. thanks for all the tips man.. I just watched some videos where they tried single and dual channel RAMs, and those differences are pretty huge.. well tomorrow I see if the problem are truly bent pins on the CPU socket and will report back.. but other question that I have right now, I have another one MB but that one doesn't work because when the BIOS was updating, PC was shut down and after starting the PC there was only a message saying "Boot guard verified due that is failed. System will shutdown. Press any key." no way to go atleast to the BIOS
I tried the CMOS battery method, didn't worked.. tried the using jumper to clear CMOS method, didn't worked.. could I trie to do something other with save that MB? It was a MSI H97 Gaming 3

 

[boju]

Can't do much for that motherboard unfortunately. If bios update was interrupted by shutdown that's pretty much a dead end for it.

 

[tennis2]

I doubt you can tighten a heatsink enough to cause RAM problems. Most/all modern day heatsinks have screw stops to prevent that. They learned their lesson 15+ years ago.

 

[misho8723]

BTW guys big thank for all your input and tips around this issue it's all deeply appreciated... anyway, I wanted to ask - could be the issue with the memory slots be because of some problem with the actual CPU?

 

[tennis2]

Mmmm, I'd say that's unlikely since both "channels" are working on the memory controller. If the problem was in the CPU I'd expect you to be able to use 2 sticks of RAM in dual channel, but the other 2 linked slots be inoperable. (This was fairly common back in the AMD K8, Intel Core2 and Pentium days)

 

[Darkbreeze]

I doubt you can tighten a heatsink enough to cause RAM problems. Most/all modern day heatsinks have screw stops to prevent that. They learned their lesson 15+ years ago.

Totally false. No heatsink manufacturer can account for the fact that not all motherboards are the same thickness. There can be significant differences in the thickness of the PCB material used from one model to the next, as well as user error in not using the correct hardware in some cases since there are generally multiple adapters included for the socket mounting and backplate. We've seen plenty of issues with heatsinks where washers needed to be used on the back of the backplate mounting to take up slack or on some thicker boards, instances where overtightening has occurred before fasteners bottom out.

That applies to the actual mounting of the heatsink to the backplate hardware as well. It happens all the time, so saying that "you" doubt it, means little in the grand scheme of things. Just because you haven't encountered a thing doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and you should avoid passing on unsubstantiated opinion as a matter of fact to members who might not know otherwise. Bad form.

As for your explanation of how memory works, dual or single channel, also not accurate. The memory controller is IN the CPU on Haswell, so any issue with the CPU or with any of the pin circuits going to the CPU can absolutely have a direct relationship with specific memory slots not working at all or the memory architecture not working correctly in dual channel configuration. Obviously in this case, the lack of dual channel is due to the wrong slots necessarily being used since the other slots don't apparently want to work.

So far I haven't seen the OP specifically state that they have individually tried to use each of their memory modules in the A2 or in the B2 slot, alone, with only a single module, to define that those slots don't work for sure. Only that with two modules those slots won't work. Maybe I missed that point.

Right now based on what has been mentioned I'd say it's a fair guess that the problem is bent pins, but could certainly be a motherboard issue, a heatsink issue or even potentially an issue of not getting the memory fully seated. Could also be some debris or corrosion down in the slots given the age of that board.

 

[misho8723]

Totally false. No heatsink manufacturer can account for the fact that not all motherboards are the same thickness. There can be significant differences in the thickness of the PCB material used from one model to the next, as well as user error in not using the correct hardware in some cases since there are generally multiple adapters included for the socket mounting and backplate. We've seen plenty of issues with heatsinks where washers needed to be used on the back of the backplate mounting to take up slack or on some thicker boards, instances where overtightening has occurred before fasteners bottom out.

That applies to the actual mounting of the heatsink to the backplate hardware as well. It happens all the time, so saying that "you" doubt it, means little in the grand scheme of things. Just because you haven't encountered a thing doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and you should avoid passing on unsubstantiated opinion as a matter of fact to members who might not know otherwise. Bad form.

As for your explanation of how memory works, dual or single channel, also not accurate. The memory controller is IN the CPU on Haswell, so any issue with the CPU or with any of the pin circuits going to the CPU can absolutely have a direct relationship with specific memory slots not working at all or the memory architecture not working correctly in dual channel configuration. Obviously in this case, the lack of dual channel is due to the wrong slots necessarily being used since the other slots don't apparently want to work.

So far I haven't seen the OP specifically state that they have individually tried to use each of their memory modules in the A2 or in the B2 slot, alone, with only a single module, to define that those slots don't work for sure. Only that with two modules those slots won't work. Maybe I missed that point.

Right now based on what has been mentioned I'd say it's a fair guess that the problem is bent pins, but could certainly be a motherboard issue, a heatsink issue or even potentially an issue of not getting the memory fully seated. Could also be some debris or corrosion down in the slots given the age of that board.

Thanks for all the info I tried a single RAM stick (all 4 of them) in each memory slot, and A1+A2 work for all of them, but B1+B2 do not (the PC does this)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAEwsRrnvjE
... tomorrow I'm going to buy a thermal paste and see if the memory slot problem is the same with my old CPU and look for some bent pins in the CPU socket.. all the momory slot worked till Friday when I installed the new CPU - i7-4790k

 

[Darkbreeze]

all the momory slot worked till Friday when I installed the new CPU - i7-4790k

That is information that might have been helpful to have included in the original post, or mentioned at some earlier point. In light of that fact, I'd say the chances are about 100% that you either don't have the CPU fully seated and locked in place, bent pins during the installation or have the CPU either cocked in the socket from unequal pressure all the way around or too tight. Very unlikely if it worked normally before, and doesn't now, that it is anything other than one of those things.

One POSSIBLE further issue however could be the BIOS version. Some boards didn't support the Haswell refresh CPUs FULLY without a BIOS update, but they would work erratically. What is your motherboard model number and what is your current BIOS version?

 

[misho8723]

That is information that might have been helpful to have included in the original post, or mentioned at some earlier point. In light of that fact, I'd say the chances are about 100% that you either don't have the CPU fully seated and locked in place, bent pins during the installation or have the CPU either cocked in the socket from unequal pressure all the way around or too tight. Very unlikely if it worked normally before, and doesn't now, that it is anything other than one of those things.

One POSSIBLE further issue however could be the BIOS version. Some boards didn't support the Haswell refresh CPUs FULLY without a BIOS update, but they would work erratically. What is your motherboard model number and what is your current BIOS version?

Well we will see tomorrow what the problem is.. hopefully.. I don't think the problem would be not properly seated CPU, I mean seating the CPU shouldn't be a problem for anyone.. I have done it multiple times in past, the last time before the new CPU was maybe a month ago when I bought a new CPU cooler and there wasn't any problem with the i5-4660 CPU .. but how would I now figure it out if the problem would be with the CPU - in case I don't find any bent pins in the CPU socket tomorrow ?
And here is the info about MB and BIOS:

 

[Darkbreeze]

A "not properly seated" CPU will be obvious, because there will be bent pins. Pretty much, 100% of the time. It's very easy to do, even for some builders that have done several builds previously. We see about ten of them per week.

 

[Darkbreeze]

Version 2803 added support for Devil's canyon Haswell refresh CPUs, and your BIOS version seems to be newer than that, so it should be ok. You have the very latest BIOS version, so there is nothing newer than what you already have in any case. Not the issue here.

 

[misho8723]

A "not properly seated" CPU will be obvious, because there will be bent pins. Pretty much, 100% of the time. It's very easy to do, even for some builders that have done several builds previously. We see about ten of them per week.

Well I always put the CPU into its socket this way -

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3yTF6wqTbg

Tomorrow is going to be a interesting day for me - I'm curios after I buy my thermal paste if I find some bent pins, how my older CPU is going to work again, etc.. and in any case, if those memory slots that are the problem right now aren't going to work even with the older CPU, than the problem is going to be the MB, yeah?
BTW really big thank you for helping me out with this
And yeah, BIOS is in the most current version - so the problem isn't here

 

[Darkbreeze]

I'll tell you what, it's easy to do. If, after placing the CPU into the socket, you don't lower the retainer and then place a finger on top of the CPU to hold it lightly in place while you lock down the retainer, the CPU can shift and I've seen it happen and simply get pushed into an awkward position while being latched down and bend pins. Also, we've seen CPUs that were NOT what they were supposed to be, so that even when lined up, it's wrong, because it's the same visual form factor, but a totally different CPU with the alignment marks in the wrong place.

Obviously that's not the case here, but I mention it only to explain that there are a variety of ways, most of them unforeseen, that can cause a lot of undesirable results. Bent pins only being one of them.

Read this thread, you'll be amazed, I guarantee it.

https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/cpu-won’t-fit-in-motherboard.3411892/#21632440

 

[misho8723]

I'll tell you what, it's easy to do. If, after placing the CPU into the socket, you don't lower the retainer and then place a finger on top of the CPU to hold it lightly in place while you lock down the retainer, the CPU can shift and I've seen it happen and simply get pushed into an awkward position while being latched down and bend pins. Also, we've seen CPUs that were NOT what they were supposed to be, so that even when lined up, it's wrong, because it's the same visual form factor, but a totally different CPU with the alignment marks in the wrong place.

Obviously that's not the case here, but I mention it only to explain that there are a variety of ways, most of them unforeseen, that can cause a lot of undesirable results. Bent pins only being one of them.

Read this thread, you'll be amazed, I guarantee it.

https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/cpu-won’t-fit-in-motherboard.3411892/#21632440

Ha, well a man learns some new things every day 😀 yeah, now I see what you mean by not properly seating the CPU and that thread was just crazy - never heard about such things and that something like that can happen..
BTW do you think this cooler is ok for i7-4790K - I will probably buy a new one anyway, just not right away
http://www.zalman.com/contents/products/view.html?no=580

 

[Darkbreeze]

It's better than the stock coolers that come on the non-K 4790, so it should be fine for now if it has the mounting hardware for your socket type. If it was used previously on this motherboard, then it does.

Not a great cooler, but not a dung heap either. I'd replace it with a better one as soon as you're able, but it should be ok for temporary use. Supposed to be good up to 180W, but Zalman likes to fudge their numbers, a lot. I haven't seen much success using Zalman coolers on newer platforms. They had some great coolers back in the long ago days but they have been a rather troubled company for quite some time now.

You DO already have that cooler installed, right? You haven't been trying, or actually running, that system without a cooler installed have you?

 

[misho8723]

It's better than the stock coolers that come on the non-K 4790, so it should be fine for now if it has the mounting hardware for your socket type. If it was used previously on this motherboard, then it does.

Not a great cooler, but not a dung heap either. I'd replace it with a better one as soon as you're able, but it should be ok for temporary use. Supposed to be good up to 180W, but Zalman likes to fudge their numbers, a lot. I haven't seen much success using Zalman coolers on newer platforms. They had some great coolers back in the long ago days but they have been a rather troubled company for quite some time now.

You DO already have that cooler installed, right? You haven't been trying, or actually running, that system without a cooler installed have you?

No no, I wouldn't try to run the system without a cooler already installed.. I just wanted to know your opinion on that Zalman cooler so far the temperatures are ok, even though not great (38-40 in idle and under load average around 66-70 degrees, but that's with a very thin line of thermal paste) but as I've already stated, I plan to buy a new one in the near future

 

[Darkbreeze]

Yeah, those temps seem a bit high for not being overclocked. Could be the cooler, could be the mount, could be a not-optimal paste job or could be relevant to the possibility of bent pins as well.

I think that's where you have to start is to verify that there is or is not any abnormal pin layout on the pin bed.

 

[misho8723]

Yeah, those temps seem a bit high for not being overclocked. Could be the cooler, could be the mount, could be a not-optimal paste job or could be relevant to the possibility of bent pins as well.

I think that's where you have to start is to verify that there is or is not any abnormal pin layout on the pin bed.

Ok, so I finally have my thermal paste and this is how the CPU looked when I took down the CPU cooler
http://i.picpar.com/b1jd.jpg

And this is the CPU socket... I see one bent pin, hope I'm not wrong.no two, even though it maybe doesn't look that way in that photo... now I'm going to really carefully try to fixed it.. with a needle.. bad idea?
http://i.picpar.com/c1jd.jpg

 

[Achaios]

Ι don't understand how it's possible to bend a pin? I mean, you have to try really hard.

The other possibility is that the OP bought a faulty motherboard, one with bent pin(s) and being non-savvy, he didn't check the socket before installation.

 

[Darkbreeze]

No, you really don't. It happens quite easily as I've been saying all thread long. I see them, myself, in about ten threads per week. Add to that all the ones I don't see, that other members and moderators deal with weekly, and it's probably more like 30-40, give or take. Probably less usually, but more of them during peak periods like after new platform releases and after the holidays when a lot of people are building new systems.

It happens A LOT. Like I said, just closing the retainer on the CPU and not keeping a finger on the top of the CPU to keep it in place can sometimes allow it to happen because closing the retainer can tend to try and lift the CPU out of place and then you close the retaining arm thinking it's good, but it's not. Carelessness can play a role too. Simply putting it in the socket the wrong way at first, without even closing down the retainer, can do it. Surely there are other reasons as well. Some may be due to re-shipped boards, but not many, as these tend to come in closed anti-static bags and it would be pretty evident it had been opened before, but maybe not in every case.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1H5_FVX9lU

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fkioojsxX8

 

[misho8723]

No, you really don't. It happens quite easily as I've been saying all thread long. I see them, myself, in about ten threads per week. Add to that all the ones I don't see, that other members and moderators deal with weekly, and it's probably more like 30-40, give or take. Probably less usually, but more of them during peak periods like after new platform releases and after the holidays when a lot of people are building new systems.

It happens A LOT. Like I said, just closing the retainer on the CPU and not keeping a finger on the top of the CPU to keep it in place can sometimes allow it to happen because closing the retainer can tend to try and lift the CPU out of place and then you close the retaining arm thinking it's good, but it's not. Carelessness can play a role too. Simply putting it in the socket the wrong way at first, without even closing down the retainer, can do it. Surely there are other reasons as well. Some may be due to re-shipped boards, but not many, as these tend to come in closed anti-static bags and it would be pretty evident it had been opened before, but maybe not in every case.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1H5_FVX9lU

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fkioojsxX8

Ok, so I tried to fix those pins.. the good news is that now I can use dual channel with RAMs.... the bad news is that now A1 memory slot isn't working, other three do... I'm going to try again with the pins tomorrow again..
Question : would this cooler be enough for 4790k? Or atleast better than my current one?
https://www.amazon.com/Cooler-Maste...8&sr=8-1&keywords=cooler+master+212+hyper+evo
If not, which one would you recommend to me in the price range around 40 - 50 $/€ (cause I'm from Europe)

 

[Darkbreeze]

No, not really. That probably has comparable performance with what you have now. I would not waste money on a CPU cooler, at all, unless and until you can afford to get one that is significantly better. That one would not be. For budget coolers we often recommend the Deepcool Gammaxx 400 or Cryorig H7, but the H7 has become too expensive to still be recommended for an entry level unit (Guess their heads got too big or demand became too great, either way, not a good choice for the price anymore. Used to be like 35 bucks, now it's like 70. More expensive than their H5 coolers that are bigger and perform a lot better) but neither of those likely performs ENOUGH better than what you already have to be worth spending money on.

You need to jump up to a good 140mm model like the Cryorig H5, Thermalright Macho rev.B or Noctua NH-U14s. If you plan to overclock you might even consider a larger cooler with a twin fin stack or a 280mm AIO water cooler. For now, use what you have and see what kind of temps you get, then when you can invest 50-70 dollars in a cooler, we can look at really good options in that range.

 

[misho8723]

No, not really. That probably has comparable performance with what you have now. I would not waste money on a CPU cooler, at all, unless and until you can afford to get one that is significantly better. That one would not be. For budget coolers we often recommend the Deepcool Gammaxx 400 or Cryorig H7, but the H7 has become too expensive to still be recommended for an entry level unit (Guess their heads got too big or demand became too great, either way, not a good choice for the price anymore. Used to be like 35 bucks, now it's like 70. More expensive than their H5 coolers that are bigger and perform a lot better) but neither of those likely performs ENOUGH better than what you already have to be worth spending money on.

You need to jump up to a good 140mm model like the Cryorig H5, Thermalright Macho rev.B or Noctua NH-U14s. If you plan to overclock you might even consider a larger cooler with a twin fin stack or a 280mm AIO water cooler. For now, use what you have and see what kind of temps you get, then when you can invest 50-70 dollars in a cooler, we can look at really good options in that range.

Ok, so let's try to say I want to buy a cooler in the price range of 50 - 70 dollars, what good options there would be (I really don't like mine temperatures right now - in idle they are around 37 - 41 degrees, under load 57-60 -65 degrees, with some very rarely but still spikes to even 69) ? I was looking at NOCTUA NH-D15, but that is sold here for almost 88 Euros, that's just too pricey for me right now - and just my personal opinion, that cooler has not the best look, but that's just me - and another question is, the fact that right now one of mine memory slots isn't working because of some bent pins, can that damage the CPU oveer time?

 

[Darkbreeze]

Below is my list of preferred CPU AIR coolers, also known as Heatsink fans (HSF).

Do not look here for recommendations on water/liquid cooling solutions. There are none to be found.

They are basically listed in order of preference, from top to bottom. To some degree that preference is based on known performance on similarly overclocked configurations, but not entirely. There are likely a couple of units that are placed closer to the top not because they offer purely better performance than another cooler which is below it, but potentially due to a variety of reasons.

One model might be placed higher than another with the same or similar performance, but has quieter or higher quality fans. It may have the same performance but a better warranty. Long term quality may be higher. It may be less expensive in some cases. Maybe it performs slightly worse, but has quieter fans and a better "fan pitch". Some fans with equal decibel levels do not "sound" like they are the same as the specific pitch heard from one fan might be less annoying than another.

In any case, these are not "tiered" and are not a 100% be all, end all ranking. They are simply MY preference when looking at coolers for a build or when making recommendations. Often, which HSF gets chosen depends on what is on this list and fits the budget or is priced right at the time due to a sale or rebate. Hopefully it will help you and you can rest assured that every cooler listed here is a model that to some degree or other is generally a quality unit which is a lot more likely to be worth the money spent on it than on many other models out there that might look to be a similarly worthwhile investment.

Certainly there are a great many other very good coolers out there, but these are models which are usually available to most anybody building a system or looking for a cooler, regardless of what part of the world they might live in. As always, professional reviews are usually an absolutely essential part of the process of finding a cooler so if you are looking at a model not listed here, I would highly recommend looking at at least two or three professional reviews first.

If you cannot find two reviews of any given cooler, it is likely either too new to have been reviewed yet or it sucked, and nobody wanted to buy one in order to review it plus the manufacturer refused to send samples out to the sites that perform reviews because they knew it would likely get bad publicity.

IMO, nobody out there is making better fans, overall, than Noctua, followed pretty closely by Thermalright. So if you intend to match case fans to the same brand on your HSF, those are pretty hard to beat. Of course, Corsair has it's Maglev fans, and those are pretty damn good too, but since they don't make CPU air cooling products, only AIO water coolers, they cannot join the party.


Noctua NH-D14 (Replace stock fans with NF-A14 industrialPPC 2000rpm)
Noctua NH-D15/D15 SE-AM4
Noctua NH-D14 (With original fans)
Thermalright Silver arrow IB-E Extreme
Phanteks PH-TC14PE (BK,BL, OR or RD)
Cryorig R1 Ultimate or Universal
Thermalright Legrand Macho RT
FSP Windale 6
Scythe Mugen 5 rev.b
Noctua NH-U14S
Thermalright Macho rev.B
Thermalright Macho (Direct, 120)
Scythe Mugen max
BeQuiet dark rock pro (3 or 4)
BeQuiet dark rock (3 or 4)
Deepcool Assassin II
Cryorig H5



It may not be obvious, but is probably worth mentioning, that not all cooler models will fit all CPU sockets as aftermarket coolers generally require an adapter intended for use with that socket. Some coolers that fit an AMD platform might not fit a later AMD platform, or an Intel platform. Often these coolers come with adapters for multiple types of platforms but be sure to verify that a specific cooler WILL work with your platform before purchasing one and finding out later that it will not.

 

[letmepicyou]

This seems obvious, but have you checked to see if there is a BIOS update for your motherboard?