New about Hammer

texas_techie

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Despite being WAY behind in megahertz, AMD still expects to compete with Prescott when its released. By how much? Best I can tell they expect to be anywhere from 5% better to 10% behind (in performance).
As for the 533mhz NW, they expect to beat it by anywhere from 5-25% (depending on cache, and chip speed).
They have also found an interesting new technology. If they use it, it will boost performance by a pretty big margin. Ive never heard of this stuff before so I cant tell you a thing about it. I just know the ends, not the means.
Conclusion: We are still on track for November. PR models are still being changed quicker than underwear. Hammer will compete with Intel for a long time. As intel ramps up Hammer/Intel will be neck and neck. Which is great in my book. This makes for competitive pricing.
I think both companies will have some tricks up their sleeve next year. I cant wait :)




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slvr_phoenix

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I cant wait :)
:( I can.

The better/faster processors get, the worse my Celeron 500 looks. :( At this rate I'll be lucky to even be capable of playing the next version of Pong! (I hear that it's supposed to have a really neat-looking bump-mapping on the paddles that makes them look all shiny and some cool ray-tracing for a comet-like trail on the ball that'll be 'out of this world'. He he he.)

Seriously though, short of starting a 3rd job, I think my next PC upgrade will be sometime in early 2003. So'd be happier if PDA's aren't out-performing my home system and desktop PCs aren't able to make my home system look like a C=64 before I can afford an upgrade.

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bront

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At this rate I'll be lucky to even be capable of playing the next version of Pong! (I hear that it's supposed to have a really neat-looking bump-mapping on the paddles that makes them look all shiny and some cool ray-tracing for a comet-like trail on the ball that'll be 'out of this world'. He he he.)
Oooh, isn't that suposed to be the first DX9 game on the market? Finaly, a game to show the true power of the PC...


Seriously, early 2003 sounds like a good time to be buying. Hammer will have been out for a while, so prices should be very reasonable. Mem prices should have gone down a bit on high performance memory. New offerings from ATI, Nvidia, Matrox, and 3DLabs should have pushed Vid-card prices down.

Hmm, maybe I should save up for a comp around that time too...

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Phelk

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Celeron 500.... You're a power user! Try C433 :-(


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I love competition and great prices too, but Intel may be having second thoughts about big price cuts on May 25-26th. I read a recent article in my local paper, and the analyst concluded that the days of significant price drops for the P4 may be over for awhile. He said that current price cuts for May are just routine, and the biggest cuts have been postponed until the 4th quarter, probably due to increased demand. Intel, unlike AMD, is in business to make money. AMD has had so many price cuts that some people associate them with being cheap. I know better, but that didn't stop me from switching to the p4 when it's performance improved.
 

ufo_warviper

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I'm practically in the same boat with a system with a K6-2 CPU @ 450 MHz and some older Pentium 1 systems networked on my LAN. :) From my experience, they usually run most things well, with the exception of newer games of course, even with a juiced up graphichs card..

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chuck232

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It's going to be tough going for Intel I predict for the time between Q402-Q203. This kind of thing always happens. One company releases a product and the other company will have nothing to compete. For example, Q402 Hammer should be around with a PR rating of 3400, which implies a P4 3.4GHz performance. By then the best Intel can hope for is a 3GHz P4 chip. I think Intel will really have to speed up Prescott and release it Q103. Hammer will come at a time when Intel is not really prepared for it, between product cycles. By the time Intel comes around and launches Prescott, they'll have lost some market share, but the sooner they release the less they'll lose, so I think Intel will be pushing their Prescotts out ahead of schedule. Remember when Intel said that 3GHz P4 wouldn't be out till at least Q103? Now they're saying Q402... looks like they're kinda worried.

I'm sure AMD is in this business to make money also, but with the pressure that Intel can exert, it is tough for AMD to have higher prices. A big reason people buy AMD chips is because they are cheaper. If they raised prices, people would start flocking to Intel. So AMD will have to be happy with their low margins right now, until something happens that reshapes the market.

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LED

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"Intel, unlike AMD, is in business to make money."

I had no idea AMD was a not for profit organization. The Athlons and P4's are priced accordingly. You think AMD is doing YOU a service by providing chips at a lower cost than Intel? Nope! They sell em at that price to sell more. Intel charges more because people will pay it. Theres a greater demand for Pentium Processors. Also, I believe the newer chips are priced so high to keep the lower clocked chips selling. AMD, to most, is a lower end processor. All of us know better, but thats just what most people think. Celerons even take sales away from AXPS!! Because people see Intel and figure it must be better than AMD........But in regards to the above quote, both companies want to make money.....LOTS. If AXPS were in 50 percent of machines, you would see VERY competitive pricing from both camps.

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chuck232

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If AXPS were in 50 percent of machines, you would see VERY competitive pricing from both camps.
Unfortunately they are not, barely 20% of machines. And also AMD is barely making any money overall. Their procs may be, but way less than Intel and the cost to keep those fabs running and the R&D and the pay for employees is really strangling their pocket books. Intel just has better advertising and I believe they started making chips way before AMD did. They just had a strong market position already before AMD came along.

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eden

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Very well said.
Finally some good news about Hammer!
Texas had hinted before that the Hammer's performance would marginally be better than top of the line P4s, thank god it ain't the case anymore. And if that new tech is used, imagine the boost! I hope, that it will outperform the highest P4s by 20-25%, it'll truly be a worthy buy by then.

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IIB

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how come AMD knows the'll be 5-10% behind Prescott which is mostly an un-knowned core on 90nm +1 year wawy which will battle off Hammer on a 90nm SOI process which AMD havn't sampled yet.
but give a much wider range of 5-25% for how how much the'll be ahead of northwood - which is a known core with ~known sacling (same goes for claw on 130nm SOI process).

doesn't it seem strange to you?
can you comment on that please?
thnx :)

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Corona999

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Sorry guys. Just wondering what the specs of Prescott will be. I'm a little behind on the tech that comes after 2002. Also, what's this new technology that AMD is boasting that'll deliver such great performance?
 

chuck232

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Well <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/news/shownews.html?i=15766&t=an" target="_new">this</A> is a pretty good overview about the Prescott. It doesn't give much, but Prescott is still almost a year away. Basically what I got from this article was that the 0.09um process is 1/2 the size of 0.13um process. This means that if they made the P4 exactly as it is on the 0.09um process, it'd be 1/2 the size. That really gives some hope that 1Mb L2 cache is on the way. Intel is already on its way to mass producing 0.09um chips, but AMD and UMC are barely coming out of their conversion to 0.13um. Looks like 0.09um Hammer will be a long ways off.

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zengeos

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Actually, Chuck, in discussing the process conversions, AMD has nearly completed their conversion, in about 9 months.

Intel started theirs early LAST year and is just recently finished with their .13 conversion.

So, I suspect AMD will catch up rapidly. They have DuPont building a new facility in Dresden to research lithography and produce better lithography. Now, who do you think that will benefit being right near AMD's primary CPU FAB?

In addition, just because Intel has displayed some .09 micron circuitry doesn't necessarily put them overly far ahead of AMD. My guess is they are 3 months ahead, perhaps, but once AMD gets their conversion going they will complete at least 1 or 2 quarters ahead of Intel.

Keep in mind, also, that while Intel heavily advertised their copper interconnects months before AMD, AMD came out with copper interconnects on their Athlon months before Intel.

Mark-

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Stiffler

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Forgive me if I am being simple here but how can 0.13um be double 0.09 ? Now I know its been a while since I was at school but isn't 0.09*2, 0.18 ???

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Matisaro

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Intel is already on its way to mass producing 0.09um chips,

No they arent, and in the grand scale of things amd is at most 4 months behind intel in conversion(although I feel the tbred had an issue not amds .13 process, but I cant prove it so its supposistion).

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Matisaro

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Keep in mind, also, that while Intel heavily advertised their copper interconnects months before AMD, AMD came out with copper interconnects on their Athlon months before Intel.

Try year(s), intel did not have working copper ic's till the NORTHWOOD, amd had working copper ics in the TBIRD!

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texas_techie

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How can AMD know how Prescott will perform? I have a feeling both companies know a great deal about each others technology. The wide margins (5-25%) for the NW were for a range of processor speeds. THe lower end Hammers will have a better performance (compared to NW) but as NW ramps up, that gap narrows.
The small range for Prescott simply means that Prescott and Hammer will be very similar in performance. Unless, of course, someone pulls off something special.
The new technology, i wish I could say more, but i dont have a clue what it is. I just know its something noone has ever heard of and should (according to AMD) offer some performance. not a lot, but enough to make a difference.
BTW.. AMD is doing some interesting things with PR ratings. I hope, and pray, that AMD doesnt screw themselves with the new PR ratings they are assigning to Hammer. The closer we get to release, the firmer the numbers should be.


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eden

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Technically saying, IF PR will modify its stance, I see no further than Palomino or Barton relativity. If that is the case, in no doubt it'd be fine if it had a lower PR rating, because even a PR3000 Hammer, using Palomino PR, would kick any NW's butt until something like 400MHZ further. Why? Well current benchs show a 1.73GHZ AXP having a solid competition against a 2.2GHZ, which is 433MHZ above it. I really do hope the PR's relativity goes to the newest Athlons, it'd make Hammer friggin good.

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zengeos

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Forgive me if I am being simple here but how can 0.13um be double 0.09 ? Now I know its been a while since I was at school but isn't 0.09*2, 0.18 ???

We're talking total area the chip takes up. With the 30% process shrink from .13 to .09 it works out to this equation, roughly:

13x13 = 169

9x9 = 81

so, .09 takes up less than half the space that .13 takes if the shrink is just a shrink. What you forgot to do was multiply as a square.

.18 would equate to 324 or just about twice the size of .13

Mark-

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castle

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You are absolutely wrong! Tualatin has Cu interconnection, and it has been in production since last summer. This means Intel is roughly a year ahead of AMD in terms of 0.13um mass production.
 

Matisaro

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Your right I meant to say intels .13 process not northwood specifically, that dosent change the fact that the MAIN POINT I was making was that amd beat intel to copper by at least a year, or do you plan to argue that the tbirds came out less than a year before the tuallys?

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