New ATI HD 3800 To Support DX 10.1

[randomizer]

DX9.0a/b cards don't support DX9.0c, that's why you can't run HDR in most games with an SM2.0 card (meaning DX9.0b, and maybe 9.0a, dunno if it had any HDR support). It's the same as DX8.1 cards running DX9.0x, they can do it, but without the features. Only once there is no backwards compatibility built into the game and 9.0c features are enforced (like in Bioshock and MOHA, forget hacks for the moment) is there a problem.

There is a difference between compatibility and compliance.

 

[fonzy]

If ATI/AMD doesn't come out with a kick ass product then I'm going over to nvidia and Intel when I build my new PC.I've been a loyal customer of both companies(amd/ati) for the last 5 years but this is getting ridiculous....

 

[pauldh]

Just be loyal to yourself not any brand/company. I swap back and forth all the time just going with what offers the most bang for the buck at the time.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

Ditto what Paul said. Brand loyalty is for losers and stockholders, consider which one you might be.

Always buy the best bang for the buck, and then if there's a tie, then maybe consider your personal 'emotive' preference.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

DX9.0a/b cards don't support DX9.0c, that's why you can't run HDR in most games with an SM2.0 card (meaning DX9.0b, and maybe 9.0a, dunno if it had any HDR support).

Reember it's neither 'HDR specific' or DX9.0C/SM3.0 specific. There are other HDR models that work with the SM2.0 generation of cards, and there's some SM3.0/DX9.0c cards (like the GF6200) that cannot do OpenEXR style FP16 HDR, but that's because FP16 filtering and blending are optional, and FP16 blending is required for OpenEXR style HDR used in Oblivion, FartCry, etc.

 

[fonzy]

Ditto what Paul said. Brand loyalty is for losers and stockholders, consider which one you might be.

Always buy the best bang for the buck, and then if there's a tie, then maybe consider your personal 'emotive' preference.

I've had my athlon xp3200 and ati 9800 for a while now and have never had a problem with either,I have never owned a intel processor or a nvidia video card so I don't know what to expect from them.I'm a loser because I want to buy from the same compaines that gave me a good and reliable product over the last 4 years.....pfff what ever idiot!

 

[Evilonigiri]

Well I seriously hope that this time around the launch of these new cards won't be as bad as the 29xx ones were. They better make good drivers when it debuts....

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

I've had my athlon xp3200 and ati 9800 for a while now and have never had a problem with either,I have never owned a intel processor or a nvidia video card so I don't know what to expect from them.

Yeah because those fly-by-night companies intel and nVidia sure sounds fishy. :sarcasm:

I'm a loser because I want to buy from the same compaines that gave me a good and reliable product over the last 4 years.....pfff what ever idiot!

Well I'm talking about the guy who think threatening AMD as a 'loyal customer' ads any weight to your argument. A 'loyal customer' that hasn't bought anyting in 4 years! Man it's loyalty like that that killed a whole bunch of companies.
You also throw it in as if it means something, when to most of us when someone says "loyal customer" it means they're blind, in your case it just means that you have limited experience not having owned/used anything else.

 

[fonzy]

Yeah because those fly-by-night companies intel and nVidia sure sounds fishy. :sarcasm:

I'm a loser because I want to buy from the same compaines that gave me a good and reliable product over the last 4 years.....pfff what ever idiot!

Well I'm talking about the guy who think threatening AMD as a 'loyal customer' ads any weight to your argument. A 'loyal customer' that hasn't bought anyting in 4 years! Man it's loyalty like that that killed a whole bunch of companies.
You also throw it in as if it means something, when to most of us when someone says "loyal customer" it means they're blind, in your case it just means that you have limited experience not having owned/used anything else.

I've owned a athlon 1600 and a radeon 7000 aswell and had no problems with it either.Just becasue I don't go out and buy a new system every damn year doesn't make me any less of a loyal customer...not to me anyway.Like I said,If AMD/ATI doesn't come out with anyhting that can out perform intel or nvidia them I'm going to go with the later.How am I threatening AMD?Did I say I was trying to bring down the company?

You might have the money to buy the best bang for your buck hardware every 8 months but to me it's a harder decision to make when I only build a computer ever 4+ years....right?

 

[randomizer]

Reember it's neither 'HDR specific' or DX9.0C/SM3.0 specific. There are other HDR models that work with the SM2.0 generation of cards, and there's some SM3.0/DX9.0c cards (like the GF6200) that cannot do OpenEXR style FP16 HDR, but that's because FP16 filtering and blending are optional, and FP16 blending is required for OpenEXR style HDR used in Oblivion, FartCry, etc.

That's why I said "most games" (not too many SM2.0 games with HDR support), and I used HDR as an example because it's a well known feature.

 

[Heyyou27]

Do you have that quote?

Actually I don't think he said they had no intention of supporting it, it just wasn't currently in the game. And this reply came after the discussion of future friendly features not yet exposed. But from everything I've read sofar he wasn't so blunt to say they had no intention of supporting it, that would imply they will never patch it, which is strange for a company that brought out 3 patches to add features to FarCry (SM3.0, SM2.0b geometry instancing, HDR+FSAA).

I would say it won't be anything soon, but I wouldn't say it won't be a future option they would end up supporting.

While you're right about the way things were added to Far Cry, do you honestly expect a Direct X10.1 patch when the claimed to be Direct X10 exclusive features in the demo can be enabled in Windows XP with a registry edit? Maybe they will end up patching it for Direct X10.1, but I'll remain skeptical on their ability to release such a patch after seeing the way they've handled Direct X10 so far.

 

[Tc17]

Why doesn't ATI just tell us everything about their new card instead of keeping it a secret? Its not like something is going to change in 2 weeks when they release it. And Nvidia has already come out with their card.

People are either going to just buy an Nvidia 8800gt now because they don't want to wait for the ATI info, or even if they do wait 2 weeks, they will still base their decision off that info.

If the ATI card is so great, then they need to be putting out ALL its features now.

 

[randomizer]

Na, coz then people will go "Wow look at those specs!" and then it may be like the 2900XT, big numbers, bad performance (at least at launch).

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

I've owned a athlon 1600 and a radeon 7000 aswell and had no problems with it either.

Which is still limited to AMD/ATi, and before the last purchase. The market has changed 3 times over since your last purchase.

Just becasue I don't go out and buy a new system every damn year doesn't make me any less of a loyal customer...not to me anyway.

It never does to those who resort to the "loyal customer' statement when talking about X company better do something cause I'm a loyal customer. The customer who does buy often enough knows the fact that they are NOT a loyal customer and simply buy on performance is motivation enough for the companies to cater to them.

You might have the money to buy the best bang for your buck hardware every 8 months but to me it's a harder decision to make when I only build a computer ever 4+ years....right?

It may be a harder decision, but really the point is brand loyalty shouldn't have anything to do with it, especially for someone who only buys every 4 years. YOU most of all need to research your purchase, because the rest of us can forgo a mistake and replace next season, you on the other hand need to live with your mistake longer, so don't look at the MFR look at the product, pure and simple. Who cares what name/colour the box/pcb is all the should matter is best fit for the tasks you're going to use it for and for the price, nothing else should matter, except a s tie breaker like I mentioned.

Do yourself a favour, forget what you owned and look at what you'd like to own, it's always the best strategy. If AMD made a better laptop I'd buy it, if nV made better video & 2D features I'd buy them. Take it from those of us who own both sides of the fence and recommend both sides too depending solely on their use and price, NO ONE has the best solution for every situation.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

That's why I said "most games" (not too many SM2.0 games with HDR support), and I used HDR as an example because it's a well known feature.

Well the funny thing is with the number of source engine based games out ther, there's quite a few that support HDR in the SM2.0 path, especially all those found now in the Black Box, whose implementation still rivals that in FartCry and Oblivion IMO.

And the only reason I focus on it is because so many people confuse HDR with SM3.0 when the GF6 and low GF7 series do not suport blending, yet are fully SM3.0 compliant. So for the example about DX it's an issue, because we have alot of features that are optional but supported in DX10 that now become requirements in DX10.1, and one of those examples is the level of FP filtering and blending which was way lower than the hardware in DX10.0, and now equal to it in DX10.1, so similar to the optional component of FP16 HDR with regards to SM3.0.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

While you're right about the way things were added to Far Cry, do you honestly expect a Direct X10.1 patch when the claimed to be Direct X10 exclusive features in the demo can be enabled in Windows XP with a registry edit? Maybe they will end up patching it for Direct X10.1, but I'll remain skeptical on their ability to release such a patch after seeing the way they've handled Direct X10 so far.

The only reason I think they will do a patch is their history, they LOVE to tweak and add features, and they've also said there's imbeded features that will only be unlocked when the hardware is available to support it. Now that to me gives you two mouth-watering options like VPU-accelerated physics (unlikely with intel as their partner) and then additional optional features which would help with their engine, like materials handling , tesselation, and a few more. So to me nothing is guaranteed, but based on their past and their propensity to like to add new features, I wouldn't rule it out. I'm not saying it's going to happen, but I would expect a DX10.1 path from them before I would for Bioshock, COH, LostPlanet, UT3, etc.

Despite their sketchy situation with DX10 right now, they seem like the logical choice based on their past and the flexability of their engine. But don't get me wrong, I don't expect it anytime soon, and don't think that DX10.1 is a killer app by any means. If they do bring a patch it will be like the SM3.0/geometry instancing patches, sometime well into next year.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

People are either going to just buy an Nvidia 8800gt now because they don't want to wait for the ATI info, or even if they do wait 2 weeks, they will still base their decision off that info...

If the ATI card is so great, then they need to be putting out ALL its features now.

You pretty much can't buy a GT right now, so there's little incentive there because people are waiting regardless.

And would you trust any figures that are published by a company?
And if you did and they were great, you still can't buy one, so who does that benefit? The only people who want ATi to show their information now are those who are worried about buying a dud and finding a better option later, and those people are already waiting anyways.

Also with the potential of a GTS-rerelease then why would AMD want to tip their hand and give nVidia extra time to to adjust their clocks.

So strategically, what's the benefit of them tiping their hand early?

 

[fonzy]

Which is still limited to AMD/ATi, and before the last purchase. The market has changed 3 times over since your last purchase.

Just becasue I don't go out and buy a new system every damn year doesn't make me any less of a loyal customer...not to me anyway.

It never does to those who resort to the "loyal customer' statement when talking about X company better do something cause I'm a loyal customer. The customer who does buy often enough knows the fact that they are NOT a loyal customer and simply buy on performance is motivation enough for the companies to cater to them.

You might have the money to buy the best bang for your buck hardware every 8 months but to me it's a harder decision to make when I only build a computer ever 4+ years....right?

It may be a harder decision, but really the point is brand loyalty shouldn't have anything to do with it, especially for someone who only buys every 4 years. YOU most of all need to research your purchase, because the rest of us can forgo a mistake and replace next season, you on the other hand need to live with your mistake longer, so don't look at the MFR look at the product, pure and simple. Who cares what name/colour the box/pcb is all the should matter is best fit for the tasks you're going to use it for and for the price, nothing else should matter, except a s tie breaker like I mentioned.

Do yourself a favour, forget what you owned and look at what you'd like to own, it's always the best strategy. If AMD made a better laptop I'd buy it, if nV made better video & 2D features I'd buy them. Take it from those of us who own both sides of the fence and recommend both sides too depending solely on their use and price, NO ONE has the best solution for every situation.

maybe,I'm not about to jump on the intel/nvidia bandwagon just yet though.I'm going to see how the amd/ati 3800 and the Phenom pan out before I declare Intel or nvidia the better product.

 

[aznstriker92]

If ATI/AMD doesn't come out with a kick ass product then I'm going over to nvidia and Intel when I build my new PC.I've been a loyal customer of both companies(amd/ati) for the last 5 years but this is getting ridiculous....

Rumors are that the 3800 series are around 8% weaker than the 8800GT but I heard that the top 3800 card will sell for $199 dollars at launch to compensate for losing to the 8800GT.

Price wars begins soon!!! :lol:

 

[tdenton1138]

Do you have that quote?

Actually I don't think he said they had no intention of supporting it, it just wasn't currently in the game. And this reply came after the discussion of future friendly features not yet exposed. But from everything I've read sofar he wasn't so blunt to say they had no intention of supporting it, that would imply they will never patch it, which is strange for a company that brought out 3 patches to add features to FarCry (SM3.0, SM2.0b geometry instancing, HDR+FSAA).

I would say it won't be anything soon, but I wouldn't say it won't be a future option they would end up supporting.

Don't know if this is the quote he was talking about, but...

Game Informer: So you don’t think developers are going to be using the [DX10.1] feature set in the next year or so?

Crytek bossman Cevat Yerli: Well if they do it’s their own choice. We wont. I mean we as a technical pushing – leading company wouldn’t do that. And I wonder why anyone else would do that either. I would say to all gamers, don’t worry about 10.1 what-so-ever. We are a DX10 game, not 10.1, and your investment in DX10 hardware if you did it already, is fine.

http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200710/N07.1004.1210.04388.htm

As a huge fan and believer in competition, I hope ATI isn't relying on DX10.1 over performance/$ to move their new parts...

Tad

 

[joefriday]

It would be unfortunate if game developers pushed 10.1 exclusivity. I know a few gamers who are still bitter about BF2 deciding not to support their GF4 Ti4600s

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

Don't know if this is the quote he was talking about, but...

Doesn't sound like it, but it does match the idea.
Hadn't seen this interview his otherone mentioned there not being any currently in the game. This is definitely much clearer on whether it will be added later.

I think the statement about current hardware doesn't make sense with regards to tesselation as it's a perormance enhanding feature of DX10.1, but I see his point for other aspects which are really more a foundation for future hardware.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

It would be unfortunate if game developers pushed 10.1 exclusivity. I know a few gamers who are still bitter about BF2 deciding not to support their GF4 Ti4600s

Yeah we had a few discussions about that since it does support the R8500, but the change to SM3.0 happened in some games before that like SplinterCell, so the writing was definitely on the wall by that point.

 

[werepossum]

"However, he kept most of the juicy bits to himself pending product launch on November 15th."

Anybody thinking about that little priest in Ethiopia who claims to have the Ark of the Covenant, but won't allow anyone to see it?

I haven't personally had an nVidia card since my TNT2 or an Intel processer since my first AMD 80287 co-processor (although I've bought both for the company when I thought they had a better fit for our needs) but I'm leaning toward both in my next build around the end of November.

I'm still wondering who at AMD said "Hey, wouldn't it be great if we sucked at more things?"

 

[tj_the_first]

Who cares what name/colour the box/pcb is all the should matter is best fit for the tasks you're going to use it for and for the price, nothing else should matter, except a s tie breaker like I mentioned.

I'm a sucker myself I've got to say. I've got 2 AMD boxes with 2 ATI graphics setups. Being Australian I always barrack for the underdog and that's AMD/ATI now more than ever. What I won't do is match pricing for an inferior product. Fortunately market pricing tends to reflect performance (except on flagship items like the FX) and if it's overpriced then don't touch it. I've got a X2 6000+ (price and performance compared well against E6600) with crossfired X1950s because neither company had a DX10 graphics card in the midrange to compete bang-for-buck with the them.

What I'm saying I guess is you can be loyal but still smart, just don't think your company will be loyal to you. I know if ATI brings out the 3900 eventually and it rocks the house we're gonna be paying big for it.