Newer, better computer.. amd/radeon or intel/nvidia?

[jason41987]

ive been pricing out components for a new build.. i like to find the features and components i like, and then find a matching motherboard

originally i was going to go with an AMD 8350 processor, but was told id get much better performance from an I5 3570K processor which does cost about $30 more... however, due to larger motherboard selections with intel processors i can actually get an equivelant motherboard about $30 cheaper which in the end comes out to the same price for a better motherboard, and what ive been told is a better processor for gaming

my original intention was to use a radeon 7950 card.. but im open to some nvidia suggestions... and im still open to suggestions for processor as well.. RAM is cheap enough that i think ill put in 16gb, did a calculation where i put in all the hardware im looking at using with a lot of extra to overcompensate for the amount of power i will be using, came out to about 650w, so i was going to use an 850w power supply.. already have the case which is a full ATX with four 200mm fans, so air cooling definitely

so yeah... just looking at some processor and video card options?

 

[realchaos]

If you're not planning to SLI or Crossfire, A 550-600w good quality psu will do you fine. What's your budget? I can build you a good build without the case. do you need a os and monitor? Planning to overclock or dual gpu? I need all these answered to get a good build for you!

 

[rad666]

As Realchaos said, more details would allow for more detailed answers, but I can provide some generalities.

The i5 chips are faster, but which to choose depends on if you are going to overclock. If you are going to overclock, get the 3570k. If you are not going to overclock, get the 3350p (you also won't need the integrated gpu, since you are going discrete), that will save you about $40.

If you do not plan on overclocking, you do not need a Z77 motherboard, get an H77 and save yourself about $80. If you do plan on overclocking, by all means get the Z77, you'll be much happier.

I can't talk about the nVidia cards, since I'm planning a build myself right now and am committed to geting a Radeon card, so someone else will have to help you with those. However, I can comment on the 79xx series card since I've been doing some research on those myself. Adding to what Realchaos said, if you do not plan on an SLI/Crossfire setup, a 500-600w quality PSU is all you will need to power a HD7950. If you have the extra $100 to spend, splurge and get the HD7970 instead.

 

[jason41987]

id like to go with one good GPU if i can... im not sure ill get really any better results for the price if i double up on lesser GPUs, but i could be wrong... and i have a case, and a 1080P monitor... ive thought about playing around with overclocking, and intend on getting a better CPU cooler as well, combined with the four 200mm fans, i could probably get into some decent overclocking... so id be interested in experimenting with it a bit, but nothing major

for budget id like to stay around $800.. willing to go up to 900 if theres some specific hardware that offers a better value, and this is not including the tower i already have, or the monitor i already have

im assuming the 3350p is just a 3570k without the discrete graphics or ease of overclocking?

im basically looking to play current and future games for the next few years at high settings with 1080p resolution as im looking to end my time with console gaming and move over to PC gaming

 

[rad666]

... ive thought about playing around with overclocking, and intend on getting a better CPU cooler as well, combined with the four 200mm fans, i could probably get into some decent overclocking... so id be interested in experimenting with it a bit, but nothing major

Keep in mind, you can OC a 3350p, IIRC, you can only mess with the voltage, not the multiplier.

im assuming the 3350p is just a 3570k without the discrete graphics or ease of overclocking?

Yep. I do believe the the "k" in 3570k indicates the multiplier is unlocked. And the "p" in 3350p means the internal graphics core is disabled.

for budget id like to stay around $800.. willing to go up to 900 if theres some specific hardware that offers a better value, and this is not including the tower i already have, or the monitor i already have

With that budget, it's really going to come down to what kind of OC you plan on doing, If you want full freedom to OC as you will, you'll probably want to stick with the HD7950. If considerably less OC potential doesn't bother you, get the HD7970. Note the performance difference between the two really isn't that big, but the HD7970 will last a bit longer before it becomes outdated.

With what you are looking at, you should easily out perform the upcoming consoles for 2 or 3 years at least.

 

[jason41987]

well heres what i was looking at in a newegg shopping cart..

geforce GTX 660 TI graphics,
650w 80 plus gold power supply
2x8gb ripjaw memory
MSI Z77A-G41 motherboard which only has one PCI-E x16 3.0, and onboard USB 3.0 headers (my case has external USB 3.0 ports

and the I5 3570K processor... total price of about $805

i would save $50 if i go with the 3350P processor which i could put towards something else... like a different video card

radeons are owned by AMD now, arent they?... heard they tend to work better with AMD processors and not as much on intel?... but i also do a lot of work with linux, so another deciding factor is which brand tends to support linux more?

another factor would be that though im primarily getting into gaming, i also use 3D solid modeling software (autodesk inventor) to design things in 3D, however, even with my 4 year old computer im still able to use this software, so i dont think its all that much of a factor

 

[realchaos]

That seems like a solid build to me, maybe cut down a bit on the psu to a 550w but a 650 is fine too. May I ask, what brand of psu is it? Can you link us to the page? A bad psu brand may be less watts than listed. AMD gpus should work just the same with an intel or amd cpu, so no worries. Not sure about the linux, but nvidia should be better than radeon on the 3d modeling.

 

[jason41987]

i believe the PSU was rosewill, but i make sure i check reviews on everything before i buy anything...

i watched a side by side comparison between the 7950 and 660 TI where the frame rates of multiple games were tested, and though the 7950 would be capable of a higher frame rate it also had instances of low frame rates, so the graph on the frame rates spiked and dropped radically whereass the 660 TI didnt spike as high, but didnt drop as low either and maintained a more stable performance.. after watching this i was more interested in the 660 TI than the 7950, but the comparison i watched could have been inaccurate or there could have been another problem... they were both tested on the same computers

ill have to decide if i have that much of an interest in overclocking or not to determine if i go with the 3570k or the 3350p... no one to make a case for the AMD 8350?

 

[realchaos]

If it's the rosewill capstone 650, nice choice. It's a good psu with an oem of superflower. The 660ti and 7950 are really close gpus. It depends on what games you play. The radeon 7950 comes with bioshock infinite and crysis 3 for free. The 660ti comes with Hawken, World of Tanks, and Planetside 2 for free. If you want to play one of those games, get the gpu that it comes with.

In a situation of 3570k/3350p vs the 8350, the answer is all up to you.

3570k/3350p: More of a "now" build. They will do better than the 8350 in games right now, but the thing with intel is that each generation will need a change in motherboards. Buy this now to get the more performance as of today and spend more to upgrade later

FX-8350: Future-proof....kind of. With 8 cores and games starting to demand more cores, this will be good for a while. Also allows you to multitask more and it can overclock pretty good and easily too. Yes it consumes more power but it shouldn't be extremely noticeable on your bills. Also, when the time comes to upgrade you won't need to change motherboards, only the cpu.

 

[jason41987]

so youre saying right now the sheer single-thread performance of the I5s are what makes them better than the AMDs for gaming.. but that games are heading towards using more cores and hyperthreading so the 8350 will be better in the future?...

but how long in the future if i decide to upgrade in 3-5 years?...

is intel planning to upgrade from the 1155 socket sometime soon?

im curious how far i would have to overclock an 8350 to equal the single thread capabilities of the 3570K? and i think ill still base the AMD/nvidia decision on whats going to offer me the best support on linux, as with steam on linux and steambox, ive noticed many other studios and developers competing for the linux market so i see linux becoming a hot spot for PC gaming later this year.. after windows 8, microsoft deserves a bit of a beating from linux

 

[smeezekitty]

The problem with many of those video card comparisons is often they are biased by something like not up to date drivers on either side or non optimum settings.

660 vs 7950 is a really close call. AMD GPUs are not partial to CPU brands. NVidia is more likely to try crap like that

I would still say you are better off with the I5 but I am a bit of an Intel fan.

Nvidia historically had a strong advantage in Linux but AMD is catching up pretty well.

 

[jason41987]

well if i remember correctly, nvidia had the advantage over ATI.. since AMD has taken over it seems theyve been putting a lot of work to catch up from where ATI left off which would suggest AMD might be more committed to linux than nvidia at this point... does anyone know the current status of the open source and closed source drivers for the two graphics cards in question?... if theyre both already fully supported by linux then i guess it doesnt matter

 

[jason41987]

ive used intels before, in the pentium era and core 2 duos and so far theyve all failed on me... bad luck maybe, but i have 10 year old and even older AMDs that still work, so i tend to lean more towards AMDs... however, im a very reasonable individual, and i keep an open mind which is why im not entertaining the idea of the 3570K.. and yeah, id probably overclock

also, i really do get the impression the 3570k and 660TI would be better for the hear and now and the 7950 and 8350 would be better for a longer run and it would be nice to play more games at higher quality for a year or two longer if this impression of mine is actually valid

 

[realchaos]

Crysis 3 is already taking advantage of 8cores, it shows the fx-8350 is better than the i5 both at stock speeds. It seems like games are taking advantage of more cores.

 

[jason41987]

well multiple cores is the trend in processors it seems... so why wouldnt games follow along?.. seems natural to assume that as both AMD and intel keep slapping on more cores that games would be written to take advantage of this... so i think in the end im probably actually going to go with the 8350 for that reason, i seem to like the AMD company a bit more,

and it does seem logical that if im going with an AMD processor, i should stick with the AMD graphics as well, and since AMD took over ATI theyve been doing a ton of work with linux as well, more effort than nvidia which has been pretty complacent these last few years with linux support

will the 8350 take full advantage of the 8350? would the 7950 pair up as well with the 8350 performance wise, or would a 7870 essentially give me the same performance in the end at about $100 less?... remember, im looking to upgrade again every 3-5 years, so theres no sense in buying something thatll last a little longer than that if i simply dont need it

also, seems most the AMD boards lack onboard USB 3.0 connectors and PCI-E 3.0

 

[realchaos]

If you're asking if the 8350 will bottleneck the 7950, not it won't. Even the fx-6300 won't bottleneck. The 7950 won't be $100 more. Right now the sapphire 7950 is 270 after rebate, it's a good deal. You can also can a 7870 XT for about $235, its a 7870 with the tahiti le base of a 7950.

 

[jason41987]

im assuming these arent even pci-e 3.0 gpus which would render the need for a PCI-E 3.0 board useless?... and if i do in fact go AMD, is there a big difference between the 970 and 990 chipsets?

 

[realchaos]

970 are standard boards while 990 are overclocking boards. If you want to overclock, grab a 990. Some 970 will allow you to overclock a little but not nearly as much as the 990.

 

[jason41987]

reason i was considering the intel chip before was the fact that although the chip costs more, the boards with similar features are much cheaper which tends to balance out in the prices

 

[jason41987]

so heres what im basically looking at... the 3570K is better for now, the 8350 will be better later...

the 660TI is more stable and seems to have the better AVERAGE performance, the benchmark i seen of the HD7950 shown that it was capable of better, but also had more periods where the framerate would downspike

the AM3+ socket motherboard is good for future AMD processors for the next couple years, but it seems this year the LGA 1155 will be replaced with LGA 1150 with the haswell processors but looking at the haswells i dont see too much of a big improvement over the ivy bridge processors to really need an upgrade to 1150 socket processors should i switch to intel... and although AMD is coming out with steamroller and escavator in the future, will i even need to upgrade to one of these?.. seems the processors at this point are about as good as theyll need to be for quite some time so theres really no need to worry about upgrading processors i guess, though it seems with using some 3D applications, the multi-threading of the AMD may serve me better

 

[jason41987]

i know i budgeted this build at a price range where i can get some really good performance.. but right now im questioning how much performance do i actually need... i mean, it would be nice to build a system where most the components go obsolete at the same time... if the graphics card goes obsolete first, i may have to buy a new motherboard with PCI-E 3.0... which might not support the old processor... or if the processor gets too old too fast ill need a new motherboard anyway

so what id like to do here is design a system around expected obsolescence and lets just say im looking at 3-5 years between new builds... certainly a 3570k/8350 or 660TI/HD7950 will last that long... but can i get a cheaper platform that will last that long?... id like to play on high settings for 3 years with medium-high for the next year, or even medium after the initial 3 years if i can swing this at a much lower price

so id like to entertain the possibility of perhaps the AMD A10-5800K, or FX-6100/FX-4300, compared to maybe a lesser core I5 or I3 processor

with the prospect of using something like a 560TI or 7850 GPU

or if anyone has a good idea for an even lower cost system thatll handle the timeframe and performance requirements without really being "overkill".. feel free to suggest one.. games im most interested in playing are games like battlefield, skyrim, and lesser graphics games like sims 3, civilization, etc

 

[rad666]

so what id like to do here is design a system around expected obsolescence and lets just say im looking at 3-5 years between new builds... certainly a 3570k/8350 or 660TI/HD7950 will last that long... but can i get a cheaper platform that will last that long?... id like to play on high settings for 3 years with medium-high for the next year, or even medium after the initial 3 years if i can swing this at a much lower price

so id like to entertain the possibility of perhaps the AMD A10-5800K, or FX-6100/FX-4300, compared to maybe a lesser core I5 or I3 processor

with the prospect of using something like a 560TI or 7850 GPU

or if anyone has a good idea for an even lower cost system thatll handle the timeframe and performance requirements without really being "overkill".. feel free to suggest one.. games im most interested in playing are games like battlefield, skyrim, and lesser graphics games like sims 3, civilization, etc

Not a bad Idea. I've been considering an i5-3350p/FX-8350 + HD7950 to play ultra/high @1680x1050/1440x900 for the next three years, right now it looks like I'm going to spend between 650-750. Of course I already have a 600w Seasonic PSU and reuse my very old (so old it didn't have front USB ports until I added them, but it is very well ventilated and fits perfectly where I want it to) case.

More to your request, my brother plays Skyrim on medium settings with a notebook that has an i3 with only the integrated graphics. For another example, my current Athlon II X3 with an HD5770 runs Skyrim @1680x1050 on high (with some settings pushed to ultra), but I have AA turned off.

So a lesser CPU/GPU combination may be what you'll need.

 

[jason41987]

so i wonder how long an FX-4300/A10-5800K with a 7850 card would last me on high settings?.. it seems it would last me as long as i was planning to build this system for but at a significantly lower cost which may allow me to upgrade more often... i have a decent case (a thermaltake chaser MK-1) and will be getting a 650w gold rated power supply.. can reuse my old hard drives so it looks like future upgrades ill only be looking at motherboards/cpus/gpus and sometimes ram

this way i could follow the market a bit closer, not buy heavily into a top end motherboard or processor, still play the games i want on the high settings and with the money i save i wont have to buy into any specific system for the long-term

but should i shoot for this lower price point ($200 for video card, under $250 for motherboard/CPU)... what would you recommend as far as processor and video card?... i believe the FX-4300, A10-5800K and the intel i3 3220 would all be the same price range to compare with, and at the price point the FM2 motherboards seem to have more modern features at lower costs than the AM3+.. also, AMD seems like theyll be committed to the FM2 longer than the AM3+ which is due to be changed in the next year or two

 

[rad666]

but should i shoot for this lower price point ($200 for video card, under $250 for motherboard/CPU)... what would you recommend as far as processor and video card?... i believe the FX-4300, A10-5800K and the intel i3 3220 would all be the same price range to compare with, and at the price point the FM2 motherboards seem to have more modern features at lower costs than the AM3+.. also, AMD seems like theyll be committed to the FM2 longer than the AM3+ which is due to be changed in the next year or two

Specifically about the modo socket. I upgrade on a two (this time) or three (usually) year cycle, and I have ALWAYS needed to upgrade the motherboard. For example, my current board is a AM3 socket, not an AM3+, so I'll need to upgrade it to use a FX chip. I think you may be over estimating your ability to upgrade and keep your motherboard in three years.

The HD7850/560ti would probably work well for you. With a little planning ahead, if you get a board with with 2 PCIe would allow you to add a second for Crossfire/SLI at a later date if you feel the need.

 

[jason41987]

i was actually planning on the motherboard being part of a future upgrade as well, which is why i wasnt planning to spend too much, the FM2 motherboards seem to have more and better features at a lower price range which is one of the reasons i was considering the A10 processor over the FX... with the FM2 i can get two PCI-E slots, USB 3.0 headers on the motherboard, RAM can be overclocked higher, and at about $50 less than an equal AM3+ motherboard

then i was comparing the specs of the A10-5800K and FX-4300 which are almost identicle prices, both based on the piledriver... i have a hard time distinguishing a difference besides the integrated GPU on the A10 which is essentially useless with a 7850 or similar card... but couldnt hurt to have a backup in case something happened to the graphics card