News No, Nvidia Isn't Breaking GPU Sanctions, Says Analyst

thisisaname

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Whatever Nvidia is doing one thing I think everyone can agree on is these cards are not going to be cheap.

With China first policy I think as soon as China can do something good enough and in quantity Nvidia is going to find sales fall off rather quickly.

Edit: It could be said that restricting tech is only so the west can continued to sell them stuff without having them compete to much, rather than to cut them off from it.
 

scottslayer

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I just saw screenshots today from Chinese social media showing pallets of 4090s being delivered to a warehouse, so it looks like China is getting the 4090s at least in before the controls come into effect.
 

Co BIY

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Any "reasonable" sanction is going to be hard to write for effectiveness.

Developing a new product that falls within the strict guidelines of the law is not "skirting" sanctions. But it may very well weaken them since it appears that the rules may have been written with the existing products in mind.
 

spongiemaster

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With China first policy I think as soon as China can do something good enough and in quantity Nvidia is going to find sales fall off rather quickly.
There's no reason to believe that is going to be any time remotely soon. Developing a comparable architecture will be hard enough, but the real challenge will be the manufacturing side. Look how much Intel has struggled to right the ship and catch back up to TMSC. To think China is going to catch TSMC while having to develop all their own tools themselves since they can't buy them from ASML, the company every leading edge fab buys from, is just fantasy talk.
 

spongiemaster

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I just saw screenshots today from Chinese social media showing pallets of 4090s being delivered to a warehouse, so it looks like China is getting the 4090s at least in before the controls come into effect.

Nvidia’s $5 Billion of China Orders in Limbo After Latest U.S. Curbs

$5 billion dollars. That's over 2.5 million 4090's. With that type of volume, it makes perfect business sense for Nvidia to develop China specific cards that drop just below US restriction levels.
 

spongiemaster

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Any "reasonable" sanction is going to be hard to write for effectiveness.

Developing a new product that falls within the strict guidelines of the law is not "skirting" sanctions. But it may very well weaken them since it appears that the rules may have been written with the existing products in mind.
The goal of the sanctions is to make China have to build super computers with slow nodes than the West can while still using products sold by US companies. It's not to cut off China completely and accelerate their technological independence.
 
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thisisaname

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There's no reason to believe that is going to be any time remotely soon. Developing a comparable architecture will be hard enough, but the real challenge will be the manufacturing side. Look how much Intel has struggled to right the ship and catch back up to TMSC. To think China is going to catch TSMC while having to develop all their own tools themselves since they can't buy them from ASML, the company every leading edge fab buys from, is just fantasy talk.
True but I never said it was going to catch up with the best just at some point it will be "good enough" to do what they need.
 

Co BIY

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True but I never said it was going to catch up with the best just at some point it will be "good enough" to do what they need.
Even if China achieved production parity but had to do so with their own investment and effort rather than theft and coercion it would be worthwhile.

Stopping a thief from stealing your rice bowl doesn't mean you intend him to starve.
 

spongiemaster

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True but I never said it was going to catch up with the best just at some point it will be "good enough" to do what they need.
If you're talking about 1 gaming GPU, if you're within 25% of a 4090, that's "good enough." When you're talking about a super computer with 5000 or more GPU's, within 25% per GPU isn't remotely close enough. The added complexity and cost because of the additional necessary nodes to achieve performance parity gets pretty crazy pretty quickly as performance per GPU drops. Building a "good enough" AI accelerator to compete with Nvidia will be a monumental task for the Chinese.
 

edzieba

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The goal of the sanctions is to make China have to build super computers with slow nodes than the West can while still using products sold by US companies. It's not to cut off China completely and accelerate their technological independence.
Bingo.
As seen with prior sanctions (e.g. semiconductor fab equipment, backhaul networking equipment, etc, the same has occurred in many other market segments) total restrictions stimulate creation of a domestic capability by necessity, which both permanently removes a control mechanism that can be used today or in the future and diverts money that would have gone to foreign companies back to domestic ones.
The tightrope to walk is to make buying foreign items more competitive than developing domestic ones (because that requires upfront investment and a period of learning to get propducts up to being directly competitive) but still being less competitive than foreign customers can be buying those same items. If you make the 'export version' too crap, then a domestic version becomes a competitive alternative even if worse. If you restrict too much, a domestic capability is the only option. If you restrict too little, then you 'risk' having to compete on a more even playing field.

Any "reasonable" sanction is going to be hard to write for effectiveness.

Developing a new product that falls within the strict guidelines of the law is not "skirting" sanctions. But it may very well weaken them since it appears that the rules may have been written with the existing products in mind.
By tying sanction thresholds to die area, that adds a measure of 'future proofing': If you move to a new process or create chips that are more efficient per unit area (e.g. through clock speed increases or ICP improvements), you then have to add dark die area to stay under the threshold (chips are now more expensive and thus less competitive per unit performance) or hobble performance by some other mechanism (same effect).
 

Darkoverlordofdata

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Why would NVidia do that? No reason. Large corps do stuff for a reason, this is just clickbait.
Just crappy modern journalism from Anton that makes up rumors to stir the pot so that they have something to report about. Leave it to the politico’s - all I want from TomsHardware is tech stories.
 

Order 66

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The sentence in the article that said that Nvidia wasn't dumb, made me laugh. I understand that AI is way more profitable than gaming GPUs, but with the 40 series, they essentially priced themselves out of the competition. Only diehard Nvidia fans would buy a 4060 ti 16GB at $450 when you can get an RX 6800 that will beat it by 16%. Sure, you could say that the 6800's RT performance isn't as good, which it probably isn't, but not many games use RT, not to mention that most people would have to pixel peep to find the difference between certain games using RT and not.