North Korea Messed Up Again

[buwish]

Looks like North Korea is back to its antics:

Seoul, South Korea (CNN) -- In a sharp escalation of hostility along their disputed sea border, North Korean and South Korean forces traded fire Tuesday, a deadly skirmish that jacked up diplomatic tensions in a volatile region.

Two South Korean marines were killed and 15 South Korean soldiers and civilians were wounded when the North fired about 100 rounds of artillery at Yeonpyeong Island in the Yellow Sea, South Korea authorities said, according to the South Korean Yonhap news agency.

I suspect that even though the Chinese have not condemned the act, they are probably furious, at least behind closed doors. At this point the Chinese are far more concerned with expanding their economy, not fighting a war, which in turn would put a fair amount of strain on their economy (i.e. China is North Korea's only major supplier of food, weapons, etc...). I don't know if the US will stay out of it militarily speaking, but at best, this could turn into a Cold War style proxy war with the both Koreas fighting it out, yet being supplied by their overlords. Obviously, I hope it doesn't come to that, but when the North has 11K artillery pieces trained on Seoul and the South countless long range missiles trained on Pyongyang, this could get messy quickly.



http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/11/23/nkorea.skorea.military.fire/index.html?hpt=T1

 

[strangestranger]

You wonder what they hoped to achieve.

 

[NoCanDo]

I think I heard something on the radio, some man of good education, proffessor perhaps, stated that they did this to flex their military muscles, they had to do this as the north korean government is like a military based nationalist kind of thing and that people are giving up their standard of living to make the state better so the government had to flex their military muscles to show the people more than anything what they're doing.
That sounds pretty convincing to me although you can never tell, it's always some overpowered idiot just pressing a button somewhere in the world.

 

[strangestranger]

Showing people they are not just words is not really necessary with North Korea. People know they have capability to strike at south Korea. All this does is further turn people away from them and right now, they need the few friends or sympathisers they have.

However I honestly think that north korea will fall apart and crumble from the inside out if a war actually begun and it may be the only way to unify that country if anything ever can.

 

[fazers_on_stun]

From what I've read (admittedly on MSNBC ), Kim Il-Jong is having to cave in to his hard-line generals in order for them to accept his son as the new ruler. IIRC the son "little-un" or some such was appointed a 4-star general a couple months ago, despite never having any military training..

 

[badge]

N. Korea has a lot to gain in the way of concessions. Sitting down at the negotiating table and probing for what they can get to stop the aggression is what the regime is after. What will you give me for my cooperation is the name of the N. Korean game and it has ben that way for decades. Clinton built N. Korea a multibillion dollar nucleur power plant at taxpayer expense of course in exchange for their cooperation to halt their nucleur weapon development program. The result of that Clinton foreign policy deal is self explanatory and a good example of what N. Korea "DOES". Obama is not up to the task of taking down the regime which is exactly what is going to happen in the future.

Edit for Writer embellishments.

 

[jsc]

However I honestly think that north korea will fall apart and crumble from the inside out if a war actually begun and it may be the only way to unify that country if anything ever can.

If Red China permits.

 

[pete3867]

I think they are VERY closely tied to china , and its a fair bet that they will 'evolve' along chinese lines .. the latest provocations are carefully staged so as to look strong. People say that the South has more to lose ,...well yes in one sense ....but it would recover whereas the north would crumble , because if push comes to shove ...China is going to look the other way

 

[buwish]

Indeed. I also agree that they are flexing their military muscle, but this time they had an excuse to do so. I believe that the South was undergoing their usual military drills in the area at the time or just prior to the event, so the North decided it would look good to blow some stuff up under the guise that they felt threatened. Complete BS, obviously, but the point is that they are playing a dangerous game. The South Korean president essentially stated that a massive retaliation is needed and unless he can be talked down, it'll probably happen, with or without US consent. They've taken one too many shots in the back of late to let this act stand and really, I don't blame them one bit.

 

[NoCanDo]

Indeed. I also agree that they are flexing their military muscle, but this time they had an excuse to do so. I believe that the South was undergoing their usual military drills in the area at the time or just prior to the event, so the North decided it would look good to blow some stuff up under the guise that they felt threatened. Complete BS, obviously, but the point is that they are playing a dangerous game. The South Korean president essentially stated that a massive retaliation is needed and unless he can be talked down, it'll probably happen, with or without US consent. They've taken one too many shots in the back of late to let this act stand and really, I don't blame them one bit.

I agree with what you say, if I was in his position I would want to retaliate too but the consequences could be astronomical and since he's the leader of that country it's up to him to make the important decisions that could stop WW3 breaking out, beacause if WW3 did break out... Bye bye world. There seems to be a lot of people on the world ending and destruction tip recently, but the world, with all our destructive technology is a fragile place.

 

[buwish]

I agree. No one wants WWIII to happen. Best case scenario, things calm down and the status quo is maintained. Worse case scenario, at least from my perspective, is that if something has to happen, it turns into a proxy war just between North and South Korea with the US and China staying out of the actual fighting.

 

[pete3867]

I dont think for one minute that it would start ww3 ...China would look the other way....why else would America have just signed a 'closer co operation' pact with them.... and America would be free to back the south , even the Russians have dissowned NK now ....BUT , it would almost certainly mean the destruction of Seoul ....which is obviously something Lee Bak (or whatever he's called) would have to weigh up..
My guess is that actually if it was to 'kick off' the America /South Korea would HAVE to strike first in order to neutralize some of the Norths Artillery that is pointed on Seoul ...The north Koreans bragged that they could wipe out half of Seoul in 20 minutes ...apart from the Artillery they have little in the way of firepower that would really worry the south ....yes they have the tiapandong missiles , but America/SK has a missile defence 'umbrella',, that would in all likeliness stop the missiles...ground forces ...yes the north has a huge army ...but the American tanks will sort that

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

I find it interesting appeasing NK has led only to more military corruption, and the media darlings are there to waive its creator, 3 dollar Bill.
Let them sink, make them atone for their atrocities. The people of nk are the only ones to save its own nation, no il- begotten ruler

 

[fazers_on_stun]

Quite frankly, IMO Iran and NK are like the midget wresting team going up against the USA - each taking turns being the aggressor. Now the USA is sending the Geo. Washington carrier task force into the Yellow Sea to provide support for the South Koreans. I'm reasonably sure that the Washington all by itself can nuke NK into "back side of the moon" habitability status, so let the idiot NK generals miscalculate once again...

 

[buwish]

In terms of man power North Korea has one of the largest standing armies in the world. But in terms of firepower, I agree with fazers: The Geo. Washington probably has more firepower than the entire country (NK).

Jaydeejohn brings up a great point: It is the people of North Korea who let the country evolve into what it is today over the decades. History has taught us is that it requires a majority of the people to overthrow a regime. In the case of North Korea though, I suspect that the regime has done such a good job of cutting them off from their own ideals 1984 style that it may be too late for them to act on their own.

I could be wrong though, as the countries of Eastern Europe shed communism after decades of similar rule...

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Another thing to ponder is, if things do escalate, the army would commence a much larger than usual consumption of various things, foods, oil, expenditures such as clothing etc.
If the NK public enters into a greater suffering because of this, all this "muscle flexing" may end up with the opposite effects back home
Not so sure Chinas willing to write even greater blank checks to them, besides all the political ramifications doing so would/will cause
Theres a limit to what people will undertake in both NK and China

 

[fazers_on_stun]

^ That does work in a society where there are news reporters able to report to the outside world if the regime in power commits atrocities, etc. However considering that NK has (1) blown up a South Korean airliner in '87, (2) sent assassins and spies into SK, Japan and other countries to kill or kidnap civilians, (3) torpedoed the SK ship last March, and many other such examples of outlaw behavior, I really doubt NK's regime cares one bit how they are perceived by the West. And since there is no news coming from inside NK, the regime is free to do whatever they want to the people. Including mass murder or starvation if they choose, as long as the military eats and lives well.

 

[tomasjevne]

N. Korea has a lot to gain in the way of concessions. Sitting down at the negotiating table and probing for what they can get to stop the aggression is what the regime is after.

I think that's an astute reading of the situation. The Pyongyang logic is not always in sync with the rest of the planet's. North Korea's time after time created a crisis (missiles, nuclear arms etc. etc.) to badger the US into direct negotiations with the regime. The US, obviously, doesn't want to. It's probably not too far-fetched to assume this also has something to do with a pending change of leadership in North Korea.

There are strange states in the world, but few stranger and more like a bad nightmare than the PRK.

 

[pete3867]

yeah imagine living there .....never heard of the beatles and think STALIN is the best leader ever ...they go on about being leaders in information technology...a few old IBM's(with the labels removed) on an intranet ...with the freedom to peruse the whole 300 volumes of 'Our Dear Leader' at their finger tips ........mind you he is a great guy ...he invented the desk WITH AN ADJUSTABLE SLOPE ...so that everyone could read the volumes IN COMFORT ....genius

 

[buwish]

yeah imagine living there .....never heard of the beatles and think STALIN is the best leader ever ...they go on about being leaders in information technology...a few old IBM's(with the labels removed) on an intranet ...with the freedom to peruse the whole 300 volumes of 'Our Dear Leader' at their finger tips ........mind you he is a great guy ...he invented the desk WITH AN ADJUSTABLE SLOPE ...so that everyone could read the volumes IN COMFORT ....genius

Plain and simple, it's a great place to live. Not to mention it looks so tempting from the south due to the "propaganda city" just over the border that show cases their mighty country. [/sarcasm]

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Yea, never mind the guards, guns, tanks, nukes, napalm,razor wire, missles etc etc, theyre there to keep people out and from corrupting our beautiful, generous, leading, superior country

 

[ern88]

If you think that China would sit idle of the US got involved. think again. The Chinese don't want N. Korea to fall believe that. because It acts as a buffer between China and S. Korea.

 

[buwish]

If you think that China would sit idle of the US got involved. think again. The Chinese don't want N. Korea to fall believe that. because It acts as a buffer between China and S. Korea.

No doubt. But on the other hand, China doesn't want N. Korea to venture too far off the leash. I caught a story based upon the recent Wikileaks cache of diplomatic documents that stated China is starting to lose patience with North Korea.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/11/29/wikileaks.new.documents/index.html?hpt=T1

 

[Onus]

North Korea is a wasp; they have a stinger, but could still easily be swatted. China knows that S. Korea has no desire to cross the border into China. They are probably concerned about the cost of all the refugees. They've minded their own business(es) while U.S. parasites confiscate Americans' earnings to give it away around the world, but an influx of refugees would require them to spend money on humanitarian issues themselves. They know it's a waste, and don't want to do it.
I doubt that the North Korean military has the resources to wage a campaign of any duration. They might manage to paste Seoul, then they would die in the ensuing return strikes. It wouldn't even take nukes, which we would NOT want to drop fallout in China.

 

[badge]

Japan is just down the road a short piece from the arena. My dad underwent surgery in a hospital in Japan after being wounded in Korea. He went back and was wounded again after they dug the shrapnel out of back. Got shot in the chest and it broke his collar bone. Thanks to the vest.