(NOT A TROLL THREAD) Apple, and why do/don't you buy their products?

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r0x0r

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Hi everyone.

I created this thread in the interest of gaining more knowledge from "the other side of the fence". Yes, I am open to learning.

First off, I am a PC guy. However, I can understand why Apple has a market.

-Some people aren't good with technology and are probably better off in a "closed" environment. I can understand that.

-Some people are willing to pay a premium for design. I can understand that. There are boutique PC manufacturers that charge a premium for PCs in creatively designed cases as well.

-Some people buy Apple to show off. Everyone likes to feel important, you and me included. Everyone has their own way of making themselves feel important. Don't hate, just ignore.

-Some people need Mac OSX for something. We all know you can Hackintosh on the cheap, but for some people, it's more trouble than it's worth.

So that's Apple's market. Before I list why I'm a PC guy, I just want to get this out of the way.

-Foxconn. We all know they're an Apple contractor. They're also a contractor for HP, Microsoft, etc. No argument here.

Now to the meat of my message.

I don't buy Apple not because of the products. They're not bad; not for me, but for the reasons listed above I can see why they're there. I believe that market will always be there in one form or another. No. I don't buy Apple products because of Apple (and Steve Jobs).

In my perspective, Apple is a company that has made screwing people an artform. It's just the culture of the company. Deleting threads on the apple site forums about faulty hardware, stealing trademarks from other companies before they pay the licensing, patronizing their customers and being obtuse (e.g. "You're holding it wrong"), semi-misleading marketing.

-Why do people put up with this, and even defend it in some cases?

-If it were another company to act in such a manner, would people defend them?

-Do the benefits of owning an iproduct outweigh Apple's arrogance?

-Are Apple arrogant, or am I jumping to conclusions?

-Is my whole view on Apple horribly skewed? If so, tell me why!

Thanks for reading. Please make it intelligent, rational answers only!
 

nsquid

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I've used apple products for about 10 years, having been in school for photography. I used to work for apple, during which time i was brainwashed and made fun of PCs and PC users.

now, when people ask me what i reccomend, i have a hard time answering. i have an imac, a macbook pro, and two PCs that i built myself. i can't play games on my macs, and i can't stand photo editing on my PCs.

my biggest thing for mac is OSX. when i was working at apple i'd see older people come in and say they want a computer but all they do is "surf the internet and email." they'd buy a mac, and i'd see them 6 months later or so, and they'd have built their own website, made their own photo books, edited home movies, etc. i don't see that kind of encouragement for novice users in windows.

i think it's absurd to defend an entity that makes money off of you in any circumstance, and it's 100 times worse with apple people. i've been that person, and i repent.

apple makes mistakes, microsoft makes mistakes, and one system is not the solution for everyone. i'll keep both platforms around forever.
 

Randomacts

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I won't every support buying a [strike]deal[/strike] dell *god dam auto correct*.. Unless they really have money to burn... but everything you can do on a Apple you can do on a PC. And you don't have to buy a new PC every time you want a software update.
 
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Guest

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I will say that the biggest draw for me is the operating system. I'm not a huge techno guy, but I know a decent amount, and for me OS X was always there for me if I had a problem.

I have used both Mac OS and Windows fairly equally throughout the years, and I like OS X better for the way it is laid out, organized, looks, and it's ease of use. Now to be fair, I haven't used Win 7 that much (just built a new desktop), but I have used XP quite a bit.

I will also say that the nice looks of Apple products is somewhat of a draw, because everyone, whether they admit it or not, likes to look at pretty things. However, their computers are horribly overpriced for the hardware you get.

I will probably never buy a Mac desktop, however one of the things to look for in a laptop is solid construction, which the unibody design gives you.

However, the main reason you can't fairly compare Apple to Microsoft, is that Apple is a hardware company and Microsoft is a software company. If Apple was only a software company, things would be quite different, because the advantage of having your own hardware for your software is that you don't have to program for all of the possible combinations that are out there. If Apple had an "open" version of OS X that worked with "PC" components, that is what I would be using (still doing research on a hackintosh). But sadly, they make all their money from hardware.

But lets face it, Apple can be an incredibly douchy company, just as every company can be.
Remember, a company's goal is to make money, NOT to be ethical!

Hopefully sometime soon there will be some sort of repercussion for their actions, and they will adjust their attitude and actions, but until that day, they basically have a cult that will but whatever they make.
 

Griffolion

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I don't buy Apple products because i build my own computers with Windows for a hell of a lot cheaper.

I also find the Mac OS highly dis-ingenious, it's very hard for me to use compared to Windows 7 (and i've given a fair bit of time to Mac OS as well so it's not like it's an unfamiliarity issue). It isn't a case of everything being in different places to Windows, i got used to how the OS works but after a while i just thought to myself 'it is actually better placed in Windows'.

I also find Windows to be massively more stable than Macs, My Windows 7 machine at home has never once crashed apart from once at the start when I hadn't set the memory voltage correctly. But my friends 27" iMac crashed 5 times in a row when trying to watch a youtube video, i gave up and put it on my (Android) phone.

This is all personal opinion by the way, someone else may have had a majorly different situation to me so please don't flame me. I just think that the prices Apple charge for their products simply aren't worth it despite any concept of superior build quality or prettyness compared to others. When i'm using my computer i'm looking at the screen, not the computer itself.
 

ricko2169

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Hi All (first post), given my recent experience I thought I would throw something in here.

Like some others in the thread, I have always built my own PC's including my current watercooled i7 system. I always did this because it was cheaper, fun (for me) and I could also play games and had a greater variety of software to choose from. i must admit I used to laugh at Apple fans and Mac users in particular, but I am now typing this on my shiny new 27" Core i5 iMac. Heres the story....

We (the missus and I) recently added a study to our house to get our PC's out of our daughters bedroom. At the same time her PC's graphics card died. This prompted the missus to suggest that a pair of iMacs would look great in the office. I indicated that despite that they do look sexy, i prefer my PC as I want to play games and I like to tinker with my computer (something she does not understand at all) and it is far more powerful than any iMac available.

To cut a long story shorter we came home with matching core i5 iMacs that I must admit look very good in the office. I upgraded the ram in both for 1/5th of what apple would charge, and I must admit I have not used my PC since (its only been a week). There are a few reasons I capitulated and bought a Mac for me too.

1. I can still use my PC (it's in the kids games room)
2. It is a very nice looking piece of hardware
3. You shouldn't really knock it until you have tried it.

After using it for a week I can say that (for me) the OS is a much nicer piece of software, and its included video and photo editing software is very good (excellent considering its bundled with the computer). You can see that things just work without mucking around with drivers and updates and the fuss that can accompany a PC. For example we plugged in our 2 year old HP All In One printer and turned it on to be greeted with nothing, nada, zip. No spinning cursor, no searching for disks or updates, just a working printer ready to go.

In the end the best parts about either platform are also their worst parts. A greater variety of options and abilities for the PC can (and often does) lead to a greater variety of problems. Apple on the other hand have less options, but less issues to go with them. You pay apple tax on apple products, but most of them do look dam nice. You can make a PC look nice too, but it ends up costing just as much or if not more.
 

musical marv

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You are a very narrow minded person I see.Apple products are expensive I agree but they last not like the other crap out there like Acer or HP where their quality control is weak and not lasting. They have excellent customer service also.Jobs is a different individual very dedicated to his field and caring about his products.Stealing what trademarks are you referring to?Think about you are saying before you post this nonsense about Apple.
 

mrdumsnut

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Hi!

What's the difference between Apple and Microsoft? except for being hardware brands off course? I got fed up with MS shipping buggy crappy products for loads of money, that's why I switched to Apple. The spotlight is usually on Apple for its innovative products, that's why we never see the poor workers in the Dell factories (it's probably the same factories btw).

I think most people that defend Apple with such frenzy is fed up with being bashed by nerdy bigots all the time. You will find the high strung head cases on both sides of the operating system fence.

I like Macs and the operating system. That's why I buy it. It hurts like hell when you pay their prices and you will sometimes be disappointed when you can't upgrade your system down the road. Life sucks!
 

nsquid

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Hackintosh. Just built an i7 6core, 12gb ram, velociraptors (600gb x3) and a 256gb ssd for about 3k.

build the same thing on apple.com and it will run you about 8k. if the price is the same, what do you choose?

if you don't buy apple products because of apple, i can only assume you don't use windows either.
 

Daave12

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Well every one have their own reasons of not going in for purchasing Apple products but it does not indicate that its loosing its importance. It is as much demanded as it was earlier.
 

memadmax

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I have a mac.
It sat and collected dust for months, after a week of use, till I installed windows boot camp on it.

Now my wife uses it... to run windows...

I dunno, we just couldn't find any use for the thing till we put windows on it...
 
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Guest

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Personally I run a home build pc and a MacBook pro, android phone and a iPad. I have a few main points.

Mobile wise their app store wins hands down.

The iMac screen is gorgeous.

For media related work fields a MacBook is a godsend.

However...

My pc is easy easy to upgrade to keep up with current games etc.

More games are available for pc which to me is a must.

It seems easier to customize windows, but that might just be me.

Over all I think they both have their good and bad points and it genuinely annoys me when stupid gambits bash each other.
 

amk-aka-Phantom

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I'm a gamer, so no Mac... ever. Plus, as someone said, everything you can do on a Mac, you can do on Windows.

BTW - I really cannot undestand why the hell everyone agrees that their design is nice, while in fact it's disgusting... for me, Asus G-series laptops look MUCH better, as well as the N-series. Same with Mac OS - can't stand the looks.

I also don't like how Apple convinces their customers that everything should be over-simplified and dumbed down. I understand there has to be a market for simple OS for people who don't care about more than e-mail and web surfing, but then, again, there's Ubuntu and Android... lol.

Apple is NOT a hardware brand. Sony screens, Intel CPUs, AMD/nVidia graphics... Foxconn stuff for their iPhones/iPads... I don't see what makes them a hardware brand.

Not sure about media related work... Some of my friends are 3D designers, photo editors, web designers and music creators... well, they despise Apple media design software and work only on Windows (or sometimes Ubuntu), and they produce great stuff.

Now, to answer the thread starter's questions:

-Why do people put up with this, and even defend it in some cases?

Aggressive marketing, brainwashing and cultivation of ignorance among the computer users. Of course, not everyone needs to know about all the pros/cons of different hardware, some people just want to do simple work on their computers... but convincing people that their hardware doesn't matter is wrong. Everyone benefits from knowing their computer.

Moreover, Apple users like to show off, as you have correctly noticed. I personally witnessed an Apple fanboy get upset with my friend's Galaxy S (as compared to his iPhone 3G) to the point where he started arguing that Apple is better because of... wait for it... wait for it... because of their "uniqueness", "innovation" and "quality of service". Never had any problems with any service... I rarely need any for my non-Apple stuff, anyway :)

-If it were another company to act in such a manner, would people defend them?

Yes, provided they'd brainwash their customers to the same extend as Apple did.

-Do the benefits of owning an iproduct outweigh Apple's arrogance?

Not that I can think of. I mean, sure, a lot of dumb people will think you're cool just because you own iStuff... but who needs the idiots' respect, anyway?

-Are Apple arrogant, or am I jumping to conclusions?

No, dude, you're quite right in your observations =)

-Is my whole view on Apple horribly skewed? If so, tell me why!

It is skewed. You know why? You're trying to find pros of using Apple products. Don't. There aren't any. =) If people would be willing to use a little bit of their brain and finally figure out how to follow instructions, NOBODY would EVER have any problems with Windows. Ignorance is the best way for Apple to profit. It's really funny how Apple users are afraid of viruses (as if there aren't any for Mac OS!), BSODs and such on Windows - as if the whole Windows experience is made up of non-stop series of crashes, driver issues and virus problems. In fact, all these things DO happen - if the user allows them to happen. Windows is simply more user-controlled.

'Nuff said.
 

Rjossul

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-Why do people put up with this, and even defend it in some cases?

Pretty general question, people defend things that they care about. They will defend athletes of their favorite team or even political parties. The bottom line is they believe in the company, team or party. The reason they do is what you have to ask.

-If it were another company to act in such a manner, would people defend them?

Yes

-Do the benefits of owning an iproduct outweigh Apple's arrogance?

To call a whole company arrogant because of a couple couple quotes, or one person... I don't think they are.

-Are Apple arrogant, or am I jumping to conclusions?

See above

-Is my whole view on Apple horribly skewed? If so, tell me why!

It's a personal preference, is one better than the other? I guess it's up to what you want to do and who you are.

For me, I used to love PC's. I never used an Apple for more than 5 minutes. I custom built my rigs, got the latest hardware, usually built my friends and neighbors systems and troubleshooted any issues they had. I loved being able to get a couple more fps out of a system just as a gear head loved squeezing a couple horses from a car... And tinkering on it for hours a month.
Then I wanted a laptop, and after searching for a while I made a jump to a MacBook Pro. Spec to spec it was one of the best out there and if needed I could install Windows. After a couple months I sold my custom rig, bought an iMac and have never looked back. I just order a new iMac with an i7 and I'm eagerly awaiting it's arrival.
Again, not everyone's the same... But for me I will explain my reasons. I got older, and had the money so cheap was no longer the primary concern. Having said that I don't believe Macs are overpriced. They are well built and include aluminum casing and glass,not just too look cool but because they are durable and recyclable. It's funny that one response mentioned companies being ethical... Go to Apples website and search environmental and see to what extent they try to be ethical. They are one of the most environmental tech companies out there and address all aspects of the products lifecycle. For me the product just works, I have had very little issues with them. My wife enjoys using them and finds it easier to work with. She does way more on the Mac then she has ever done on a PC. In may opinion OSX is more stable, easier to use, and a nicer GI. The added software (iLife) is way better than anything I have seen in Windows for power vs ease of use. I have diffent priorities now... Wife, kids, coaching, work, running... I don't have time to mess around with fps, blue screens, custom building a rig. I'll buy a BMW vs. ordering a car kit any day.
 

CompTIA_Rep

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This statement is why there are and will always be heavy support for Mac. I don't see Windows being this easy and this encouraging to new or novice computer users.
 

Griffolion

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Actually I do, Windows 7 is a very nice interface that my mother and grandmother can enjoy using. Just because it doesn't suddenly have you doing all this, that and the other doesn't suddenly invalidate one OS in favour of another.


I don't have a problem with Mac OS to be honest, I mainly have a problem with some of the people that use it. They tend to look down on people who don't use Apple stuff while claiming they are the victims of Apple haters. But to be honest, the vast majority of Apple-fan comments are laced with arrogance and criticism that is hard to spot unless you're tuned into it, while claiming to be the voice of reason or whatever. They also use these ridiculous phrases like "i went Mac and never looked back". Seems to me like they never looked anywhere past the marketing material...

Others are a little less tactile and simply go "APPLE FTW!!2321" because they liked the wallpaper in OSX or something.

I dunno, as far as I can see, maybe Apple had an argument against Windows in terms of usability and general niceness in the past. But with Windows 7 that's basically been thrown out of the water and anyone who carries it on tends to be an Apple die-hard or someone who hasn't used Windows 7.

But like someone above me said, these are the two main platforms and the world operates just fine on them both for their own reasons, so let's keep this status quo.
 

AnUnusedUsername

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I'd like to know why people seem to think macOS is "better" for photo/video editing. Is it purely because the pre-installed software that comes with macOS is better than the pre-installed software on windows? If so, unwillingness to spend ten minutes installing a program you use for a living is a pretty lousy reason to choose an OS.


More to the point, the biggest reason people seem to like apple is that the company markets it's flaws as a plus.

Can't run a "real" web browser (due to phone screen size)? Require "apps" instead of simply visiting sites.
Little direct control over how your computer runs (without opening up a unix command prompt)? It's "simpler".
Mass produce only a select few configurations? They're "Unique".
Sell less powerful hardware at a premium? "You dont need to know what's inside your computer, only what's on the outside"
I could go on, but I think you get the picture.

Apple does do one thing moderately right. They hide their cheaper internal components under more expensive visible components.

As a simple example, Apple-branded monitors generally use IPS panels. These are avaliable to windows users as well (and cheaper than the apple-branded ones), but windows users also have the option of a cheap TN panel. To a windows user, they can spend $150 on a TN panel or $300 on an IPS panel. They just want a monitor, so they buy the TN panel and see apple's product as superior. To a macOS user, they only have one option. Pay $400 for an IPS panel monitor. (I'm estimating prices here, just as an example.) They're forced into buying the better product, with a premium above even what the windows user would have to pay.

So the general public just assumes apple makes better products, mostly because the "better products" apple makes are products avaliable to windows users but very little of the market buys them, while the apple market is forced to buy the better products. Again, I'm ignoring internal components here.

As a general rule, apple takes the "high-end" of the PC market as far as outwardly visible components go. Hardly anyone buys the "ultra-slim" or "well-built" windows laptops that have been around for years because the cheaply built dells, HPs, Gateways, etc. are avaliable (not that those companies are incapable of making a well-built system, they just also offer cheaper ones).

With apple, you can only choose the more expensive option, so people compare apples expensive option with the cheap option avaliable with windows. Comparing "Apple"s to oranges fits well here.

People see this as innovation, because apple forces the improved option on them, while windows just provides it as an alternative. The more "quality" oriented windows computers aren't marketed to the general population, so they see these products first when apple forces people to use them. Even if they've been an option with windows for years.

Apple doesn't give you a choice, and windows does. In doing so, windows is defined by the lowest common denominator, while apple is defined by the high quality parts it "borrowed" from the windows market. When people compare the common windows desktop to the common apple desktop, they see apples design as better. Same for laptops. If people were to compare the common apple laptop to, say, a Voodoo, there wouldn't be the misconception that apple makes strictly better products. (Again, I'm still not talking about internal components. Only build design and outward facing components.)

Long story short, windows gives options, and is judged by the cheapest of those options. Apple takes the more expensive of the windows options, gives no alternative, and is considered innovative for forcing the high-end outward facing components PCs already have on it's buyers.

The general market doesn't know or care about internal components or the windows options that beat apple's at a lower price (but that cost more than the cheap windows options), so apple stays around.

Longer than intended... Hopefully it makes my opinion relatively clear anyway.
 

CompTIA_Rep

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I'd like to know why people seem to think macOS is "better" for photo/video editing. Is it purely because the pre-installed software that comes with macOS is better than the pre-installed software on windows? If so, unwillingness to spend ten minutes installing a program you use for a living is a pretty lousy reason to choose an OS.
It used to be because Apple Pro's quality was generally guaranteed to be better and the software worked better then the average PC. Final Cut Pro is an example. However, as someone who uses professional tools, I have not found that distinction to be accurate in a very long while.


As far as who apple is "better" despite the limitations on hardware/software/choices - its because of the choices. Many people hate complicated and unknown terms and have no idea what it all really means. To MANY people, more ram is better, but they couldn't say why exactly. They don't know where or when to compromise when going to a PC. Apple is a good bet in this case if they want something really good without the chance to get something they weren't expecting. For those who know more, they can make educated choices on each brand of PC, configurations, and needs. And it still may be Apple they chose.
 

darth_coffee

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Pardon the cliché, but I own a Macbook pro and probably the sole reason I use it is because I like it. I bought it around 2007 or 2006... whenever it was when the first Intel dual core cpus came for them and I wouldn't change it for any other computer in the world, probably because I've just grown fond of it.

I don't really care about the way apple (or microsoft) does business or how the other rips off the customers and so on because all that really doesn't affect me. Sure there have been some problems I've had with my computer, but I've always fond an answer to them somewhere.

I occasionally game, but for that I use Bootcamp and xp. But when I'm done, I just change back to os x to do other things and I don't mind having to do that. Normally at home I just browse the internet, send emails and if the need arises, I do something work related eg. Take rdp to a customer's computer because something's broken and I need to fix it.

I think that in my case it all comes down to the fact that I prefer to use OS X because I like it better than any of the latest iterations of Windows. It's kinda the same thing with me and cars: I want to know what model has the lowest consumption, does it run on petrol or diesel but if I have two cars that are basically the same "stats-wise", I'd choose the one I like the better.
 

noonin

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I asked a couple what's the different between using photo editing programs on a PC vs using the same program a Mac (not iPhoto) and they said no difference. Why do you hate photo editing on a PC?
 

boeing114

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Since I'm an enthusiast and I like messing with upgrades, drivers, and all that stuff that makes computers tick, I prefer PCs.

I do have to admit that Macs are really neat. They're sleek, and you don't really have to mess around with drivers and all that technical stuff.

There is light on both sides of the tunnel, but it is mostly just preference.
 

mattcha

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I'd much rather have more flexibility with different hardware/software combinations available int eh PC market.
 

maktbone

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I own an iPod nano and an iPad 2. They're both great products and sync flawlessly with iTunes. For managing media, there's no other system I'd rather use. For these products I'm happy to pay the premium.

However, for work I use a company-issued Lenovo laptop. I need full Excel and SAS capabilities. Even if I could choose a macbook, Excel on Mac is buggy and frequently crashes, and I would need bootcamp to run SAS. Since I have the work laptop I'm not going to buy a personal MacBook as well.

For my home desktop I use a slimline HP. Not as sexy as a mac mini, but similar in functionality. Total cost about $450 with G620 processor, 512mb Radeon 6450 HD graphics card, 750 GB 7200rpm HD, 4 GB RAM, and DVD-R. The Mac minis may look cute, but the base models have slow hard drives, lack graphics GPUs, are mostly non-upgradable, and don't even include optical drives. I really wish Apple had a better entry-level consumer model--I love OS X and its unix capability and I'd love to have it, but my frugal nature tells me it isn't worth it.

I use an android droid cell phone (not by choice, I had Verizon and locked into a two year contract before they picked up the iPhone). It's buggy and crashes frequently, and when I first bought it the iPhone had far more apps available. Now android has caught up and is surpassing the iPhone. At this point I'm not sure if I'll go iPhone or Android; I'll wait-and-see what the iPhone 5 brings to the table.
 

cmi86

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I'll break this down as simply as I can. Apple is a niche brand, people buy them in once sense or another because their products are trendy and fashionable. The recent sales and market share of apple can simply be accredited to their marketing department for the way apple products have been branded as "better" This really just isn't true though. Apple makes a huge premium off of this marketing and marking up the prices on their hardware. Why else can a $6,000 mac pro be spec'd equally from another manufacturer for $4,000 and built for $3,000 ? Apple makes roughly a 50% profit margin on most everything they sell, most other companies make about 25% max. I (personally) don't find there to be any advantages to OSX over windows (for myself) I have been using windows for a decade and know how to configure and run it to where it does everything I could ever ask. Now in the perspective of somebody who is the opposite of me and using OSX for a decade im sure they know thier way around and it works just fine for them. The apple products them selves are fine ( i own an ipod and it works great) They seem to have good build quality but what puts me off is knowing apple is intentionally jacking up their prices to turn a larger profit. I can do anything on a windows machine that is 2X as powerful as a mac costing 2X as much so I just don't see the logic. Apple competitively spec and price your products or it is only a matter of time before you sink back into your miniscule 3% market share.
 

PepsiCoke

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Hrmm, I must say, I used to be on your side of the fence until I tried the iPhone 4S and it completely changed my views on Apple products... right now funnily enough i'm actually looking at buying my first macbook! So the best way is to buy yourself the smartphone, and before long, you will crave another apple product just because it allows your mobile/cellphone to do even more!

As for the O/s difference, I will still have Linux as my server, Windows as my main PC and the Laptop, well I think I covered that already... best to learn a few distros rather than just the one huh?
 
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