NV sets rules for Optimizations in their drivers

TheGreatGrapeApe · Jul 25, 2003

I thought it was quite interesting that there be a need for NV to tell their driver guys exactly what will be a valid optimization to be considered for addition to driver sets. I think most (not the one for 3Dmk01 which did less work on the trees in nature) of ATI's cheats met the first and third criteria for optimization, but not that second one.

Check out the extract from the NV conference call @ <A HREF="http://www.tech-report.com/onearticle.x/5421" target="_new">the Tech Report</A>

I LIKE this though and think it's a step in the right direction, the question is what happens if they are LATER found out to NOT meet these standards?

And like the Tech Report implies, there's alot of wiggle room, and it's at least a start. And I like it so far.

EDIT: Also check out the other aticle there about <A HREF="http://www.tech-report.com/onearticle.x/5418" target="_new"> The AF optimization</A> fiasco. And why the FX5600 looks better in UT2K3 because of it. Another reason to question the Fx5600 v. R9600P test in the VGA buyers' guide review. IMO

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

Edited by TheGreatGrapeApe on 07/24/03 03:49 PM.

phial · Jul 25, 2003

interesting!

-------

<A HREF="http://www.quake3world.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001355.html" target="_new">*I hate thug gangstas*</A>

coolsquirtle · Jul 25, 2003

I HAD ENOUGH OF THIS...... TOO MUCH CHEATING!!!!
the next ATi product with a HSF as cool as the Gainward 5900 come up, I'm going 120% ATi FANBOY!! fanATics FOR LIFE!!!!! WAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA (realises that ATi cheats too) the next Matrox product with a HSF as cool as the Gainward 5900 comes up, I'm going 120% Matrox FANBOY!! MAT-ROX!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Proud Owner the Block Heater
120% nVidia Fanboy
PROUD OWNER OF THE GEFORCE FX 5900ULTRA <-- I wish this was me
I'd get a nVidia GeForce FX 5900Ultra... if THEY WOULD CHANGE THAT #()#@ HSF

TheGreatGrapeApe · Jul 25, 2003

Don't get too excited man, but I think SIS might just have the product for you. Wait a while (like for the Creative P10) and see what comes out of it. But then again SIS cheated too so I guess you're still stuck with Matrox! Hehe Ma-it-Rocks! 😎

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

flamethrower205 · Jul 25, 2003

Squirtle I got somepin for u that you can't cheat on the drivers. A paperclip+ cardboard box, good enuf vid card, and no drivers necessary.

All the things I really like to do are either illegal, immoral, or fattening.

coolsquirtle · Jul 26, 2003

(hides in cardboard box) I'm safe here..... hehhehehehhehehe

Proud Owner the Block Heater
120% nVidia Fanboy
PROUD OWNER OF THE GEFORCE FX 5900ULTRA <-- I wish this was me
I'd get a nVidia GeForce FX 5900Ultra... if THEY WOULD CHANGE THAT #()#@ HSF

GeneticWeapon · Jul 26, 2003

Hi everyone.
I live in Oklahoma now.
Please shoot me in the head ASAP.

I help because you suck.

rower30 · Jul 26, 2003

OK guys,

What is "cheating" really? We all hate the idea of ANYBODY telling you what to do, right? Well who say ANYBODY has to practice 3d rendering correctly (we could argue what correctly is all day) if it get their goals, whatever they are, accomplished. Before we storm off on benchmarks, remember that a set of drivers that are PUBLIC, and are used with benchmarks also effect the cards graphical quality, too, not just FPS. So if you bias a card for speed (not just one benchmark), it looks worse (Nvidia?). You might gain some buyers, you may lose some buyers. BIAS a card for looks (MATROX), it may be slower. If you manage to "cheat" and do both (ATI), who cares? It made a better product, didn't it?

Now, is it cheating if they don't "tell" you about it? What part of "tell" should be "told"? QUOTE -"There is still ambiguity in graphics APIs about how exactly some things should be handled, and NVIDIA has given us no hints about how it will handle questionable situations. We have no guidance on what constitutes proper trilinear filtering or the like, so we don't know exactly what we're getting with the "correct image."
I sometimes wonder just where the line is with all this. Engineering is a combination of blunders and oversights. Things are just too complicated to avoid some gaffs, or sell anything if it has to be perfect. And yes, most designs cover deficiencies in hardware with software and vise versa. They all do.

Show me a card that is "perfect". Even if it meets ALL standards, it still not perfect. Why? Because standard insure general combatibility, not the best product. They DISCOURAGE the best products so ALL products will work together. That's just the way it is.

The renegades that "cheat" often times are the very ones who improve the standards with unique products (3DFX) that are monopoly solutions. Hey, they cheated, though. They weren't compatible with anything but your cards 2d output. 3D? They made it up as they went with SIS and their Verge accellerators (decellorators?). Every game was made for Virge, 3dFX, Matrox, and others but not ALL. But it worked. No standards open up better solutions. Anybody ever thought that 3DFX would go bust?

Now that were all the same (ya, right), we have to beat down every one who tries to be different. Just look at the 256meg video RAM cards out there. We know thay are a waste of effort, but we're still buying them even when we KNOW the performance is just not really there except in the price tag. Why not standardize it? No way, let the market work.

A small gaff in 3Dmark 2001SE is inconsequential to the myrid of benchmardks out there. Anybody REALLY think that one tests is going to pop your buying decision?

All standards aren't bad, but boxing in the drivers as long as they are open architecture compliant seems to be a mistake.

daddywags214 · Jul 26, 2003

HI GW!!!!!!!!

[shoots GW in the head]

GOODBYE GW!!!!!!!!!

These days, no matter what company you like, be it nVidia, ATi, or whatever, no matter how logical your reasons, you're labeled an idiot or a fanboy, or both.

daddywags214 · Jul 26, 2003

I can tell you what cheating is in one sentence: Cheating is one someone says one thing and does another, and lies to cover it up.

If only it were that simple... Cheating can also be perceived as unrealistically raising benchmark scores in a detrimental way (to realworld gaming) by taking advantage of the fixed camera route and writing drivers that unfairly alter the workload and lower image quality to improve performance. (Of course, this only applies to video cards...).

How's that?

These days, no matter what company you like, be it nVidia, ATi, or whatever, no matter how logical your reasons, you're labeled an idiot or a fanboy, or both.

Willamette_sucks · Jul 26, 2003

GW!!! j00 r back. How is OK?
How is broadband? (or do you have it yet?)

"Mice eat cheese." - Modest Mouse

"Every Day is the Right Day." -Pink Floyd

dhlucke · Jul 26, 2003

Hi everyone.
I live in Oklahoma now.
Please shoot me in the head ASAP.

I have a friend who moved out there and she likes it. The pay is crap though. Nonetheless, aren't there drive through liquor barns or some shite like that out there? That must rule!

<A HREF="http://forums.btvillarin.com/index.php?act=ST&f=41&t=389&s=1fee5dab901bebe29da7aa1c2658fc6f" target="_new">dhlucke's system</A>

GOD BLESS AMERICA

eden · Jul 26, 2003

"l337"-alert on the post above you DH.
Call the FAQ Police, pronto. I'll handle the talks.

--
<A HREF="http://www.lochel.com/THGC/html/news.html" target="_new">The official Tom's Hardware Guide Forums Photo Album, click here to contribute!</A>

TheGreatGrapeApe · Jul 26, 2003

HeHe, the Prodigal SON has returned! :evil:

Now we have the harmonic balance this place was missing for a while.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

TheGreatGrapeApe · Jul 26, 2003

Simple. IMO, a cheat in a benchmark is anything that works SPECIFICALLY for that benchmark to raise it's percieved performance artificially (define that how you will). IF without these cheats it works like A, and then after these cheats it works like B, then there's a trick involved. The only way I'll consider a cheat/trick (from anyone) an optimization is if it applies generically to ALL other applications (not app. detection specific) and does not compromise either A: the benchmark (path/rail specific opt.), or b: the IQ (even if it's nearly imperceptable [it might be to me/you, bt not to others]).
Also it's a cheat if it fiddles with the way the test is supposed to work. If the creators had pulished 'stringent guidelines' of what is/isn't allowed and what cannot be 'optimized' then it's simple, any breach of that is a cheat. And if confronted with these tricks then thereshould be ways to disable them before running the benchmarks so that we can get a GOOD idea of the power of the hardware. If you want to show what your drivers to to boost that power, then run te test twice, with and without 'tweaks' like has been suggested before.
In the end I think it's really up to the benchmark makers to uphold the inegrity of their bencmarks, and they can do that by setting better guidelines. Hopefully we will see that kind of control in newer ones like Aquamark3.

WE aren't looking for the perfect card, we are trying o find the good cards, and as long as the mfrs feel they need to obscure the tests that won't even be possible. I once again point you to MPG stickers on cars, as an example. It's a valuable measure beause it's done under strict conditions that are reproduceable by others, and relate to the vehicles availible to everyone, and are related to the other vehicles, not a different set depending on whether it's a VW, Honda, or GM product.

EDIT: I think <A HREF="http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1201076,00.asp" target="_new">THIS</A> ExtremeTech article does a good job of descriing the issue (see page 2 for a list of reasons these cheats $crew US).

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com" target="_new">RED GREEN</A> GA to SK :evil:

Edited by TheGreatGrapeApe on 07/26/03 05:59 AM.

GeneticWeapon · Jul 26, 2003

I have a friend who moved out there and she likes it. The pay is crap though.

The pay is a little lower then Ca., but the cost of living is ALOT less. I went and looked at a new home with my fiance' yesterday, it was three bedrooms and made of brick. Only $66,900 dollars. With 20% down(which we have) it would put the monthly payments below $400 dollars a month. My girlfriend alone makes $1,400 dollars a month out here working at JCPenny's. Houses like that in Ca. are around $200,000. I'm liking it more and more here. And yes, they do have drive through liquor barns

I help because you suck.

GeneticWeapon · Jul 26, 2003

Now we have the harmonic balance this place was missing for a while.

Remember that Vader was prophesied to bring balance to the force....but did alot of damage before that came to pass😉

I help because you suck.

coolsquirtle · Jul 26, 2003

GW YOUR BACK!! PEOPLE SAY YOUR DEAD!!!~~~~ FROM MIB2

(pulls out M16) welcome back (fires)

Proud Owner the Block Heater
120% nVidia Fanboy
PROUD OWNER OF THE GEFORCE FX 5900ULTRA <-- I wish this was me
I'd get a nVidia GeForce FX 5900Ultra... if THEY WOULD CHANGE THAT #()#@ HSF

GeneticWeapon · Jul 27, 2003

Thanks...I think

I help because you suck.

NV sets rules for Optimizations in their drivers

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