News Nvidia Taps TSMC's 5nm for RTX 40-Series GPU Architectures

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Oct 15, 2021
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Very nice if it ever became possible for us average users to buy them. But due to scalpers and climate destroying cryptocurrencies, that’s unfortunately not happening.
Completely idiotic that cryptocurrencies (Tulip buds of our time) are still investment objects. Obviously the rich and the criminals needs a way to move their illegal funds around digitally, but why are banks and millions of people investing in these? Obviously because to much money has been printed in the central banks the last 30 years….. but still…..
The economies of today - based on unbacked printed and loaned funds are A GIGANTIC financial experiment that will fail at some point.

Mod Edit - Language
 
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Endymio

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due to scalpers and climate destroying cryptocurrencies, that’s unfortunately not happening.
Take a deep breath. It'll be all right.

Now, for a little breath of reason. Scalpers don't decrease the overall supply of cards: they actually increase the ability of consumers to purchase products -- if you're willing to pay fair market value. (when "fair" is defined in proper economic terms, not a manufacturer's MSRP.)

As for the ludicrous hyperpole of "climate-destroying cryptocurrency", I'll merely point out that these cards consume electricity whether they're in a miner's rig or in yours. At least in a miner's rig they're doing something arguably more productive than simply generating prety pictures.
 
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King_V

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Scalpers don't decrease the overall supply of cards: they actually increase the ability of consumers to purchase products
Oh, here we go again....

No. They. Don't.

Your logic makes ZERO sense. You keep repeating this whole fair-market-value mantra like a holy chant, but that does not increase the ability of consumers to purchase products.

Only ONE thing can increase the ability of consumers to purchase products, and that is an increase in supply.
 

husker

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As for the ludicrous hyperpole of "climate-destroying cryptocurrency", I'll merely point out that these cards consume electricity whether they're in a miner's rig or in yours. At least in a miner's rig they're doing something arguably more productive than simply generating prety pictures.
I do not think governments should restrict mining, but China has forbidden mining supposedly because of the strain it puts on the electrical grid. Gaming has no such restrictions (yet). That is because gamers do not have arrays consisting of dozens of video cards working at maximum power for 24 hours a day. Do I think cryptocurrency mining is destroying the climate? No, I don't. Do I believe that the universe of video cards are using far more electricity with crypto mining than without it? Absolutely. Those "pretty pictures" may be worthless to you, but to others they are not. And, yes, crypto is worth money but is that the only standard by which we judge the worthiness of something? If so then it is best for everyone to sell their gaming rigs because, hey, you get money.
 

Endymio

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You keep repeating this whole fair-market-value mantra like a holy chant, but [scalping] does not increase the ability of consumers to purchase products.
Of course it does. You can purchase all these cards today -- if you're willing to pay fair market price. Without the scalper, your only hope is to win the card lottery.
 

Endymio

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Those "pretty pictures" may be worthless to you, but to others they are not.
No, they're not worthless to me. I'm simply trying to get you to understand that crypto mining may be worthless to you, but it's not to others. To each their own. Making decisions about which activities of others are "worthwhile" and which are not is a slippery slope which ultimately leads to authoritarianism. From the gist of your other remarks, I believe you understand that yourself, so I won't preach further on that topic.

Yes, crypto is worth money but is that the only standard by which we judge the worthiness of something?
The value of crypto is not because it is "worth" money, but because it, as a medium of exchange with benefits above those of government-issued currencies, adds utility to the global economy. That may be a difficult argument to swallow for those of you who have lived your entire lives in the US or other reasonably-laissez faire economies; but it is still correct. As just one small example a couple years back, when the citizens of Venezuela were having their lifetime wealth destroyed in a hyperinflationary spiral and their government essentially banned foreign funds transfer, crypto was the only escape for many of these people.
 
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Scalpers don't decrease the overall supply of cards: they actually increase the ability of consumers to purchase products -- if you're willing to pay fair market value. (when "fair" is defined in proper economic terms, not a manufacturer's MSRP.)
"Fair" market value is only defined by the supply created by scalpers. In the absence of scalpers, the "fair" market value would be the MSRP, which is why it's called Manufacturers' Suggested Retail Price.

As for the ludicrous hyperpole of "climate-destroying cryptocurrency", I'll merely point out that these cards consume electricity whether they're in a miner's rig or in yours. At least in a miner's rig they're doing something arguably more productive than simply generating prety pictures.
Mining rigs typically run 24/7 with overclocked cards if possible, and several if not hundreds of these overclocked cards, all using maximum resources. To compare this with the average consumers' single card, which idles at an average wattage/temperature and only jumps up when running games/resource intensive games is an abysmal comparison, even when excluding cooling and other costs.

The value of crypto is not because it is "worth" money, but because it, as a medium of exchange with benefits above those of government-issued currencies, adds utility to the global economy. That may be a difficult argument to swallow for those of you who have lived your entire lives in the US or other reasonably-laissez faire economies; but it is still correct. As just one small example a couple years back, when the citizens of Venezuela were having their lifetime wealth destroyed in a hyperinflationary spiral and their government essentially banned foreign funds transfer, crypto was the only escape for many of these people.
Cryptocurrency, as a medium of exchange, is only useful to the extent of which it can be exchange for real (fiat/commodity) currency and/or the amount of businesses that accept cryptocurrency as a form of payment.
 

Krotow

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Already out of stock and bought by miners for two quarters ahead. Three times overpriced for regular guy - if he will manage to scrap enough funds for the card. I'm curious why GPU news aren't published only in cryptomining news section? They now have little use for usual GPU clientele before 2020.

Note for cryptomining advocates above and elsewhere. Cryptomining was the real driver behind GPU price keeping in artificially inflated level for last 2 years. Nothing like fair market here.
 

King_V

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Of course it does. You can purchase all these cards today -- if you're willing to pay fair market price. Without the scalper, your only hope is to win the card lottery.
This statement is complete nonsense.

No more customers are able to purchase a GPU with a scalper's intervention than without the scalper's intervention.

If there are 1000 cards available, only 1000 people can purchase them, regardless of whether it's via scalper, or via card lottery.

Either 1000 people get it at MSRP, or X get it at MSRP and 1000-X get it at scalper prices.

The scalper only causes harm, and ZERO benefit, to the customer.
 

Endymio

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In the absence of scalpers, the "fair" market value would be the MSRP, which is why it's called Manufacturers' Suggested Retail Price.
Even without the emphasis on "suggested" price, your statement is incorrect. Fair market value is the price which exactly balances supply and demands. Product shortages only occur when prices are below this fair value. And, in general, scalping can only exist around some form of price controls, usually government-implemented, but in this case due to supplier's desire to avoid being portrayed as profiting from Covid-induced shortages.

The so-called "scalper" brings value to the system. By acquiring goods and reselling them at fair market value, they erase the shortage. Consumers can again purchase the products they desire, as long as they're willing to pay that price. Those of you who believe you have a god-given right to "suggested" MSRPs are aggrieved by this, but no amount of whining can wish away the basic laws of economics. If prices are too low, shortages will exist. Period. And history has long taught us that producsts -- especially nonessential luxury consumer goods such as add-in graphics cards -- are best allocated to those willing to pay the most for them. Imagine if Ferrari set an MSRP of $10,000 for their latest 488 Spyder. How quickly do you believe they would sell out, and what percentage do you think would wind up being "scalped" and resold at a fair higher price?

Mining rigs typically run 24/7 [all] using maximum resources. To compare this with the average consumers' single card....
You miss the point. Every last watt-hour your gaming card consumes is wasted entirely. Wherease every watt-hour consumed by a mining card generates value in maintaining a blockchain.
 

Endymio

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Cryptocurrency, as a medium of exchange, is only useful to the extent of which it can be exchange [sic] for real (fiat/commodity) currency and/or the amount of businesses that accept cryptocurrency
Of course. That was implicit in my original statement. The point is that enough businesses and individuals now accept crypto that it does have value as a medium of exchange, even were it not freely convertible into fiat currency.
 

Endymio

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If there are 1000 cards available, only 1000 people can purchase them, regardless of whether it's via scalper, or via card lottery.
Well, the argument has gone from the false "scalping reduces supply" to the slightly-less false "scalping doesn't help supply". Progress of sorts.

Your statement is prima facie correct, but misses the bigger picture. You chaps are so emotionally invested in graphics cards, so let's try the argument with a different consumer product: air conditioners. Most people don't upgrade their working AC unit the moment a new one comes along; they purchase new only when their old one fails. So let's imagine if 3 ton AC units were suddenly given an MSRP of $500, rather than the current $8000 or so. These units would, like graphics cards today, all sell out immediately. If and when your unit failed, you'd be entirely out of luck until the next shipment, possibly months later, and even then you'd be unlikely to actually succeed in purchasing one.

Now add "scalping" to the mix. By reselling AC units at a fair market value, these individuals assure there will always be units for sale. Yes, they don't increase total supply. But they increase your ability to purchase a unit. In fact, if they set their price appropriately, your ability to purchase goes from effectively 0% all the way up to 100% -- there will never be a time you're denied the option to purchase the product you desire. Therein lies the value the scalper adds.
 

JamesJones44

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The so-called "scalper" brings value to the system. By acquiring goods and reselling them at fair market value, they erase the shortage. Consumers can again purchase the products they desire, as long as they're willing to pay that price. Those of you who believe you have a god-given right to "suggested" MSRPs are aggrieved by this, but no amount of whining can wish away the basic laws of economics. If prices are too low, shortages will exist. Period. And history has long taught us that producsts -- especially nonessential luxury consumer goods such as add-in graphics cards -- are best allocated to those willing to pay the most for them. Imagine if Ferrari set an MSRP of $10,000 for their latest 488 Spyder. How quickly do you believe they would sell out, and what percentage do you think would wind up being "scalped" and resold at a fair higher price?
This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read and I'm have an Econ minor. Scalpers bring nothing to the table other than artificially affecting supply for their own profit. Just because it doesn't always work out doesn't mean they don't artificially affect supply, they do. If the scalpers didn't exist and supply out stripped demand the manufacture sees the same benefit. The primary beneficiary of scalpers is consumers with higher disposable income since instead of having to wait like everyone else, they can buy from the scalper at a higher price, but the manufacture does not benefit from this and it does not ease the shortage as the manufacture has already created those units, the scalper isn't creating additional units. Like wise, if a scalper miss judges and buys a tone of units of a product that is over supplied the effects on the manufacture are typically moot as the scalper will likely sell under MSRP to get out of a bad position and recoup some of their expenditures, thus lowering demand again on the manufacture. Again the manufacture doesn't benefit from this action.

I'm sorry, but there is absolutely zero benefit to scalpers being in the system.
 

King_V

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This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read and I'm have an Econ minor. Scalpers bring nothing to the table other than artificially affecting supply for their own profit. Just because it doesn't always work out doesn't mean they don't artificially affect supply, they do. If the scalpers didn't exist and supply out stripped demand the manufacture sees the same benefit. The primary beneficiary of scalpers is consumers with higher disposable income since instead of having to wait like everyone else, they can buy from the scalper at a higher price, but the manufacture does not benefit from this and it does not ease the shortage as the manufacture has already created those units, the scalper isn't creating additional units. Like wise, if a scalper miss judges and buys a tone of units of a product that is over supplied the effects on the manufacture are typically moot as the scalper will likely sell under MSRP to get out of a bad position and recoup some of their expenditures, thus lowering demand again on the manufacture. Again the manufacture doesn't benefit from this action.

I'm sorry, but there is absolutely zero benefit to scalpers being in the system.
The clinging to the "scalpers bring good" is the economic equivalent of religious fanaticism. It's a dysfunctional worship of laissez-faire economics, and embraces economic harm as good.

Somehow, no matter how high prices are jacked, someone in need of a product will always be able to afford it at the time they need it, in Endymio's view. This is completely bogus.

TL;DR - the belief (and that's all it is) that scalpers bring value to the market is a complete fantasy.
 

Endymio

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This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read and I'm [sic] have an Econ minor."
And your professors are rolling over in their graves now, certainly. When I taught college courses, there were always students you couldn't make see the noses at the ends of their faces as well. You learn to live with it eventually, but it still remains galling.

No, the scalper doesn't magically create new units and increase overall supply. Read again what I said: this time carefully. Scalpers increase the availability of products. Each and every one of these cards you are bemoaning the 'unavailability' of is available for purchase. Right now. You can purchase any of them you wish. Without the scalper, this would not be true. Those cards would be perpetually unavailable.

Economists may disagree on essential commodities such as food and shelter, but you won't find a single publishing economist today that doesn't agree that luxury consumer goods are best allocated to those willing to pay the highest prices for them. The scalper ensures this allocation scheme. I understand that this is emotionally devasting to those individuals who desire these cards, but lack the disposal income to purchase them -- but you've learned to live without that Ferrari 488 Spyder; you can survive this calamity as well.
 

Endymio

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Somehow, no matter how high prices are jacked, someone in need of a product will always be able to afford it at the time they need it
Yes. I do believe you're starting to get it. And why is this true? Because, the scalper only makes a profit if the product sells. If no one can afford it, the scalper must lower his price.

Scalpers, moreso than perhaps any other merchant, are thus continually adjusting their price to find that optimum value, the value that perfectly balances their supply against available demand.
 
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Wow, maybe the 4000 series will hit what they SAID the 3080 and 3090s would hit (I.E. 4k 120fps)
While I know game optimization plays a huge huge part in that, I know we all remember the 3000 series reveal and them touting 4k capabilities up to 120fps. Or maybe I'm misremembering.
Either way, did they do that same thing with the 2000 series or 1000 series? Like, did they say that for the 2080 that it could play games at 2k res up to 144 fps? Curious to see if for the 4000 series they'll advertise 8k @ 120fps and then you'll actually really only be able to be get 90-100 fps @ 4k.
 
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sstanic

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nice and eloquent discussion, but lemme just add that scalpers are mostly gone from the GPU discussion now, and left the chat many months ago. they were involved at the beginning, when Nvidia launched the 3080, but the whole chain was very quick to raise their prices substantially.

first the retailers didn't want to sell at 800 if they can easily get 1200-1300, then AIB partners reacted the same way, why would they let retailers get away with huge profits, and then nvidia of course. nvidias gaming segment profits, recently published, are very clear evidence, but both retailers and AIB manufacturers admitted to their role.

and that is precisely why now there is stock, but it seems that participants don't want to lower their price, yet. I'm guessing that AIB partners are waiting for nvidia and AMD to lower theirs first, then they would follow, and then retailers. but the whole idea got stuck in the holiday season, plus nvidia is about to announce refreshed products, AMD maybe something as well. so everyone is just waiting now. myself included.
 
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spongiemaster

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nice and eloquent discussion, but lemme just add that scalpers are mostly gone from the GPU discussion now, and left the chat many months ago. they were involved at the beginning, when Nvidia launched the 3080, but the whole chain was very quick to raise their prices substantially.

first the retailers didn't want to sell at 800 if they can easily get 1200-1300, then AIB partners reacted the same way, why would they let retailers get away with huge profits, and then nvidia of course. nvidias gaming segment profits, recently published, are very clear evidence, but both retailers and AIB manufacturers admitted to their role.
Uhhh... nope. Scalpers are still a thing. If you want an idea of where prices would be minus scalpers, you need to look at the prices Newegg is selling cards for during their daily shuffles. 3060 12GB cards are in the mid 400's. That is comfortably above the original MSRP, but that is no where near the $800+ they are typically selling for on Ebay right now. 3070Ti's are in the $800 range on Newegg. They're selling for $1200+ on Ebay. The prices Newegg are selling cards for indicate it isn't Nvidia/AIB's jacking prices up ridiculously. AMD has more or less given up on selling GPU's. It's rare to see them in shuffles. If Newegg can't get them, they aren't out there for end user consumption.
 

TJ Hooker

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but you won't find a single publishing economist today that doesn't agree that luxury consumer goods are best allocated to those willing to pay the highest prices for them.
Can you elaborate on why it is "best" that those willing to pay the highest price get a graphics card? Instead of say, those that are particularly patient/diligent (e.g. continuously monitoring for new stock), or those that are simply lucky (e.g. winning Newegg shuffle or similar).
 
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