News Nvidia to replace Intel in Dow Jones Industrial Average — Intel's 25-year reign has come to an end

[Admin]

Intel will lose its place on the Dow Jones Industrial Average on November 8, where it will be replaced by AI giant Nvidia.

Nvidia to replace Intel in Dow Jones Industrial Average — Intel's 25-year reign has come to an end : Read more

 

[hotaru251]

nvidias value will plummet though once ai bubble bursts when the world finally accepts its not profitable.
its unlikely the next boom will be anything like ai/crypto booms.

 

[Marlin1975]

nvidias value will plummet though once ai bubble bursts when the world finally accepts its not profitable.
its unlikely the next boom will be anything like ai/crypto booms.

Problem is that may take a few more years till that happens.

I want to short Nvidia so bad as I also know its a bubble as well. But never under estimate human stupidity. That can last a lot longer that I am solvent on shorts.

 

[bit_user]

nvidias value will plummet though once ai bubble bursts when the world finally accepts its not profitable.

Nvidia isn't just doing datacenter AI solutions, though. They're also building SoCs + software for self-driving and robotics, and are even set to enter the client computing market, in some fashion.

Furthermore, they have datacenter networking product lines, thanks to their acquisition of Mellanox. They're also getting into the datacenter CPU business, with Grace. If they actually design their own ARM cores for the client market, then I'd expect those to show up in their datacenter CPUs, as well. They did try to buy ARM, which you could interpret as a sign that they want to play in those markets.

We don't know what other acquisitions they might make or new markets they could enter. It could be other businesses with a stable revenue stream, like when AMD bought Xilinx.

I've never been a big cheerleader for Nvidia, and I don't own any individual share in them, but I would caution against being too dire about their long-term prospects. They've proven to be both flexible and resilient, as well as ruthlessly competitive. That's not to say I think they're not overvalued... I'm not really going to be drawn on that point.

 

[Co BIY]

The Dow Jones inclusion is a popularity contest.

Nvidia over Intel is obvious.

 

[hotaru251]

Nvidia isn't just doing datacenter AI solutions, though. They're also building SoCs + software for self-driving and robotics, and are even set to enter the client computing market, in some fashion.

oh i know they do other stuff, but the reason they skyrocketed is 100% due to the ai bubble that everyone and their brother is wantign a piece of.
When that pops the value will drop even thoguh they have other stuff.

Not sayign going to go down all way to prebubble but it will be nowhere near what its current value is.

 

[Alvar "Miles" Udell]

The DJI is just a selection of 30 companies that are picked in order to give the DJI a growing number. Intel's the only chipmaker company on it, and I'd argue that even if Intel's foundries were cranking out as many chips as TSMC and their CPUs outselling AMD's 100 to 1, nVidia deserves to be on it more than Intel simply because GPU sales are a better economic indicator in 2024 than CPUs, and nVidia's GPUs in both the consumer and enterprise sectors are vastly more popular.

 

[derekullo]

Nvidia is just selling the shovels.
As long as Elon, OpenAI, Microsoft, IBM, Google, Meta and the others are buying hundreds of thousands of GPUs for thousands of dollars each, Nvidia has nothing to worry about.

The only reason people think AI is garbage is because the product they most associate with AI, ChatGPT, is relatively free to use and people associate free with lower quality.
Not to say ChatGPT is perfect and never hallucinates, but that's the whole point of training the AI is so it becomes less of a Harold and Kumar and more of a Good Will Hunting.

Having said that I have used ChatGPT for small LUA snippets because I suck at writing LUA!

 

[valthuer]

Everybody's looking forward to the AI bubble bursting, in the hopes that it'll somehow force Nvidia to revert to its 2017 GPU pricing.

 

[Alvar "Miles" Udell]

Everybody's looking forward to the AI bubble bursting, in the hopes that it'll somehow force Nvidia to revert to its 2017 GPU pricing.

Personally I'm hoping the AI bubble bursting will bring sense back to the market and get things untied from the "Magnificent 7". GPU pricing won't turn back to reality until there's a competitor, not a collusioner, to nVidia (AMD being the colluder) and starts a proper price war, and until then GPUs will be the single piece of computer hardware which continues to increase, not decrease, over time.

But when the AI bubble bursts you better pray it's a slow deflation else it's going to make the Dot Com Bubble look tame in comparison. The "Magnificent 7" have a market cap of over $15 trillion, and most of them are driving this AI bubble ( Alphabet (GOOGL; GOOG), Amazon (AMZN), Apple (AAPL), Meta Platforms (META), Microsoft (MSFT), NVIDIA (NVDA), and Tesla (TSLA) are the Magnificent 7). If that bubble does indeed burst, trillions of dollars could evaporate over the course of weeks, if not more quickly, compare that to the $5 trillion the dot com bubble wiped out over a span of 2 years.

 

[JamesJones44]

nvidias value will plummet though once ai bubble bursts when the world finally accepts its not profitable.
its unlikely the next boom will be anything like ai/crypto booms.

We've have had several booms in my 46 years of life. 80s computer boom, 90s .com boom, 00s cloud boom and housing boom, 10s crypto and streaming boom and now the AI boom.

Each of those pops have been pretty spectacular (maybe not so much the cloud boom, but housing made up for it), I'm sure the next one will be too.

 

[Thunder64]

Personally I'm hoping the AI bubble bursting will bring sense back to the market and get things untied from the "Magnificent 7". GPU pricing won't turn back to reality until there's a competitor, not a collusioner, to nVidia (AMD being the colluder) and starts a proper price war, and until then GPUs will be the single piece of computer hardware which continues to increase, not decrease, over time.

But when the AI bubble bursts you better pray it's a slow deflation else it's going to make the Dot Com Bubble look tame in comparison. The "Magnificent 7" have a market cap of over $15 trillion, and most of them are driving this AI bubble ( Alphabet (GOOGL; GOOG), Amazon (AMZN), Apple (AAPL), Meta Platforms (META), Microsoft (MSFT), NVIDIA (NVDA), and Tesla (TSLA) are the Magnificent 7). If that bubble does indeed burst, trillions of dollars could evaporate over the course of weeks, if not more quickly, compare that to the $5 trillion the dot com bubble wiped out over a span of 2 years.

How is AMD a colluder when idiots buy 3050's over 6600's for the same price? People only want AMD around to force Nvidia to lower prices so they can but Nvidia cheaper.

 

[derekullo]

Everybody's looking forward to the AI bubble bursting, in the hopes that it'll somehow force Nvidia to revert to its 2017 GPU pricing.

The AI bubble bursting isn't going to bring down the costs of consumer graphics card costs as much as you think.
It may bring down the price of the professional RTX cards and data center cards since the demand for them will be less.
But if Nvidia sees the average gamer willing to pay $1000 for a 4080 and $2000 for a 4090 then they have no reason to lower prices unless Nvidia has competition.

 

[Alvar "Miles" Udell]

How is AMD a colluder when idiots buy 3050's over 6600's for the same price? People only want AMD around to force Nvidia to lower prices so they can but Nvidia cheaper.

Tell me, how are AMD making nVidia lower their prices when they don't compete with nVidia on price anymore? Prior to the Ray Tracing era they did, AMD was at some times significantly cheaper, so much so they were proper "value alternatives" with lower performance, less features, and buggy software able to be tolerated.

However, when the RX 5700 series was released, there was such a backlash that they were forced to lower the prices before release just to sell them. Then comes the RX 6800/XT, and, to quote TH's Jarred Walton

RX 6800 and Big Navi aren't priced particularly aggressively, but they do slot in nicely just above and below Nvidia's competing RTX 3070 and 3080.

$650 for the 6800XT, $700 for the RTX 3080, $50 less for a card that was already slower in rasterization and ray tracing, that's not being competitive, that's pricing so close that AMD would never be an option. And the story was the same with the 7900XT/XTX vs the 4080, $100 cheaper, and 7800 vs 4070, $100 cheaper, that's not competing, that's price matching.

This is why every other piece of hardware in your system has decreased in price over time, yet GPUs have only, at best, remained the same, or increased.

 

[Thunder64]

Tell me, how are AMD making nVidia lower their prices when they don't compete with nVidia on price anymore? Prior to the Ray Tracing era they did, AMD was at some times significantly cheaper, so much so they were proper "value alternatives" with lower performance, less features, and buggy software able to be tolerated.

However, when the RX 5700 series was released, there was such a backlash that they were forced to lower the prices before release just to sell them. Then comes the RX 6800/XT, and, to quote TH's Jarred Walton



$650 for the 6800XT, $700 for the RTX 3080, $50 less for a card that was already slower in rasterization and ray tracing, that's not being competitive, that's pricing so close that AMD would never be an option. And the story was the same with the 7900XT/XTX vs the 4080, $100 cheaper, and 7800 vs 4070, $100 cheaper, that's not competing, that's price matching.

This is why every other piece of hardware in your system has decreased in price over time, yet GPUs have only, at best, remained the same, or increased.

You are quoting prices at one point in time. And if you are saying "buggy software" which I guess means crap drivers there will not be any reasonable conversation with you. Twenty plus years ago that would be a vlid point. Now you just make yourself sound silly.

 

[valthuer]

The AI bubble bursting isn't going to bring down the costs of consumer graphics card costs as much as you think.
It may bring down the price of the professional RTX cards and data center cards since the demand for them will be less.
But if Nvidia sees the average gamer willing to pay $1000 for a 4080 and $2000 for a 4090 then they have no reason to lower prices unless Nvidia has competition.

Good point.

I, too, believe it won’t happen.

I was just describing it as a sort of wishful thinking.

 

[hannibal]

nvidias value will plummet though once ai bubble bursts when the world finally accepts its not profitable.
its unlikely the next boom will be anything like ai/crypto booms.

The problem is… AI is needed by military, science, economy, griminals, covenrments…
So there is ever increasing need to get faster AI solution than competitors/enemies.
AI will not drop. It will become more important the longer it goes on! We may not like it, but it is what it is. Only if NVIDIA f** up and is not any more leading AI developer, then nvidia will drop. If nvidia put all their resources to make faster and faster AI chips. NVIDIA will print money.

 

[bit_user]

GPU pricing won't turn back to reality until there's a competitor, not a collusioner, to nVidia (AMD being the colluder) and starts a proper price war, and until then GPUs will be the single piece of computer hardware which continues to increase, not decrease, over time.

It's sad that you have to turn to conspiracy theories rather than accept that chip pricing is simply getting more expensive. GPUs are where it's most obvious, because that's where die area most directly translates into performance.

• https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-i...rease-in-chipmaking-costs-as-complexity-rises
• https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-i...growth-now-comes-from-more-expensive-products
• https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/tsmc-may-increase-wafer-pricing-by-10-for-2025-report
• https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-i...e-a-price-hike-once-again-usd30-000-per-wafer

Not to mention that there's no real competitive pressure on TSMC to try and keep prices down. Thanks to AI, demand for the latest nodes is sky rocketing. It's natural for them to increase prices when faced with a backlog.

I also dispute the narrative that GPUs are the only thing getting more expensive. I'm pretty sure leading-edge DRAM and NAND chips have been seeing overall price growth, but that's not so readily apparent, because people don't buy them as chips, but rather buy memory and SSDs according to capacity. As long as their density increases faster than the chip prices, it looks like they're getting cheaper but the chips aren't. If you bought GPUs by the "shader" or "core", it would also look like they're getting cheaper.

AMD and Intel both increased CPU prices quite a lot, when they started adding cores. Core counts have stagnated, again. Even though the cores are each getting larger, as long as they don't enlarge faster than $/Tr decreases, CPU pricing can remain fairly stable.

Also, Intel had some price increases, but I'll bet you didn't notice those. Same silicon, higher price.

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https://www.tomshardware.com/news/r...rtedly-costs-15-percent-more-than-raptor-lake​

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I'm sure they'd be launching Arrow Lake at a higher price point if they could, but its performance is so mixed that they basically just have to eat their margins. That's not sustainable.

Where Intel actually did increase core counts, they sure as heck increased prices!

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https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-com...-800-granite-rapids-sets-a-new-high-watermark​

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But when the AI bubble bursts you better pray it's a slow deflation else it's going to make the Dot Com Bubble look tame in comparison. The "Magnificent 7" have a market cap of over $15 trillion, and most of them are driving this AI bubble ( Alphabet (GOOGL; GOOG), Amazon (AMZN), Apple (AAPL), Meta Platforms (META), Microsoft (MSFT), NVIDIA (NVDA), and Tesla (TSLA) are the Magnificent 7).

Of those, only Nvidia would face harsh consequences. Of the others, they have some products and services based on AI, but I'm sure the majority of their revenue stream hasn't changed from before. If those AI services ceased to be profitable (which I doubt they even are, yet), then their overall financial health wouldn't change by much.

 

[bit_user]

GPU pricing won't turn back to reality until there's a competitor, not a collusioner, to nVidia

...

TL; DR: The death of Moores Law isn't like hitting a brick wall. Rather, it's just seeing each new node deliver smaller and smaller gains, while prices increase on an exponential curve. GPUs are simply where this effect is most apparent to consumers.

But I'm sure you'll tell us that's also a conspiracy, and not just chip fabs resorting to more complex methods, as they approach the limits of physics.

 

[bit_user]

Then comes the RX 6800/XT, and, to quote TH's Jarred Walton ...

That was during the pandemic & crypto boom, when GPUs sold for significantly higher than their list prices and were virtually impossible to find in stock! You're now viewing those prices out of context.