Obama and gun control

[johnsonma]

Barrack Obama has done hardly anything restrict gun control in the United States, yet people continue to think he will stop at nothing to take away their guns, this article pretty much summarizes the train of thought most of them are following.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/09/26/328300/paranoid-nra-chief-obama-leaving-gun-owners-alone-is-conspiracy-to-take-away-guns/

 

[riser]

Because it doesn't mention the ban on military brass being shredded.. which that ban lasted two weaks because it had enough people against it. Or the fact that he mentioned he would like to bring back the Clinton-Era Assault rifle ban.

Wow man.. you'll believe anything someone else writes after the argument. You're more reactive in politics. Watch him speak, listen to him on specific subjects. He'll say something and in a week or two the Spin will kick in if it doesn't go well.

Anyone can search the internet all day and find some opinion column that supports their thought. Problem is you Leftists never pay attention to the facts.

 

[johnsonma]

Because it doesn't mention the ban on military brass being shredded.. which that ban lasted two weaks because it had enough people against it. Or the fact that he mentioned he would like to bring back the Clinton-Era Assault rifle ban.

Wow man.. you'll believe anything someone else writes after the argument. You're more reactive in politics. Watch him speak, listen to him on specific subjects. He'll say something and in a week or two the Spin will kick in if it doesn't go well.

Anyone can search the internet all day and find some opinion column that supports their thought. Problem is you Leftists never pay attention to the facts.

You say that I never pay attention to the facts and then you use a comment he made about wanting to bring back an Assault rifle bans as evidence, right.... that's a little hypocritical don't you think? Then you take the fact that brass being shredded is not longer in effect and you are left with the fact that there is nothing he is doing to currently restrict guns in the nation. Who is the one who pays attention to the facts here? I know it isn't you.

 

[johnsonma]

On a side note, show me a conservative who takes into consideration all the facts, and I will show you an extinct species.

 

[riser]

Fact: Obama said he wants to bring back the assault weapons ban.
Fact: Obama campaigns for president on saying things he wants to accomplish and people vote based on that.
Fact: He did issue, I think it may have been a Presidential Directive, to shred all brass less than .50 cal before selling it to the private market. After about two weeks the directitve was removed and part of the answer was from public outcry over high cost of ammo, potential of closing businesses that relied on the brass, and because it may hurt and/or distance himself from the public voters.

 

[riser]

Fact: Lefties won't let facts get in the way of their opinions.

 

[johnsonma]

Fact: Lefties won't let facts get in the way of their opinions.

Fact: As of this moment, there are no stricter gun laws now than there was during the Bush administration. He tried a couple things in relation to gun control but like both of you said, he repealed them when he realized they were causing more harm then good.

Fact: Conservatives make their own facts and then get upset when faced with the real ones, this is highlighted by your previous statement riser.

 

[johnsonma]

So john, you start another thread about Obama and gun control as a response to your complete fail on the Obama administration's operation fast and furious? Fail and fail.

Actually I wanted to highlight gun control measures passed by Obama, which is nothing. I figured the thread about operation fast and furious was done once it was said that there was no evidence that Obama and Holder knew anything about the operation. You however could care less about evidence and want to continue talking about it based on your own speculations, which count for nothing. The only fail here is your failure to comprehend reason and logic.

 

[johnsonma]

Jan. 8: BATFE Phoenix Field Division Group VII, the group carrying out F&F, explains in a briefing paper: “Currently our strategy is to allow the transfer of firearms to continue to take place. …” The briefing paper is indisputable proof that F&F knowingly allowed firearms to continue to go into criminal hands. The briefing paper reveals that batfe is working on F&F with the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA). Eventually, Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE, part of Janet Napolitano’s Department of Homeland Security), the Internal Revenue Service (IRS, part of the Treasury Department) and the DEA (part of Holder’s Department of Justice, or DOJ) all become involved in F&F. All are aware of the “gun walking” tactics being used, according to Newell.

March 10: BATFE intelligence analyst Lorren Leadmon conducts a videoconference briefing. Among those present is Department of Justice attorney Joe Cooley, who was personally assigned to be the DOJ point of contact for F&F for Lanny Breuer, Holder’s assistant attorney general who runs all of Justice’s criminal programs. The issue of gun walking is raised, and Cooley says that allowing guns into Mexico is “an acceptable practice.”

Dec. 16: Hurley, the attorney in charge of F&F, e-mails his boss, Dennis Burke, U.S. attorney for Arizona, that the Terry murder guns were “part of the overall ‘Fast and Furious’ conspiracy.” Gary Grindler (a top Holder aide who will become his chief of staff the following month) receives a briefing that F&F guns were found at Terry’s murder scene.

Dec. 21: Newell e-mails his supervisor, William McMahon, saying, “Guns purchased early on in the case couldn’t have [been] stopped mainly because we weren’t fully aware of all the players at that time, and people buying multiple firearms in Arizona is a very common thing.”

This is patently false. BATFE was well aware that Avila was a serial straw purchaser of dozens of guns who was working with Patino who, BATFE knew, had bought hundreds of guns.

The Terry murder is the last straw for Dodson. He repeatedly contacts the Office of Inspector General at the Department of Justice, but gets nowhere. (This is the office that Holder will later place in charge of the internal DOJ investigation of F&F.)

Dodson contacts the office of Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa. Eventually, at least a dozen whistle-blowers will speak with congressional investigators. A half-dozen of them will testify before Congress in June and July 2011.

The evidence is there, you just ignore it. If Holder was not personally aware of what his own Dept. of Justice and his own US Attorneys were doing then he needs to resign for complete incompetence at the very least. If President Obama was not aware of what his own Dept. of Justice and Dept. of Homeland Security were doing then he needs to resign for complete incompetence at the very least.

I don't ignore it, its not like I said that this never happened, it was a failed tactic that blew up in their faces. To believe that Obama knows every little detail about what the BATFE is doing is just naive. Holder "might" of been aware of the operation in the end by name only but I doubt he knew the details, that is how bureaucracies work, delegation of duties. If assault rifles going across the border is such a huge deal, then why don't we ban them? At the very least lets pass some laws to make multiple purchases of assault rifles reportable to the government.

In fact the government giving guns to the cartels has been going on long before operation fast and furious.

http://peoplesworld.org/furious-reaction-to-u-s-gun-exporting-scheme/

 

[riser]

Fact: As of this moment, there are no stricter gun laws now than there was during the Bush administration. He tried a couple things in relation to gun control but like both of you said, he repealed them when he realized they were causing more harm then good.

Fact: Conservatives make their own facts and then get upset when faced with the real ones, this is highlighted by your previous statement riser.

And Appointing judges who have ruled in favor of gun-control legislation to Supreme Court justices? They're supposed to be judges which exceptional character who have not made those decisions in the circuit courts.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Isnt it funny how the left needs to have a bad guy in order to make their point?
Like the saying says, guns dont kill people, people kill people, with or without guns.

Anyone not seeing this as another Iran-Contra deal is kidding themselves, as Im sure we could also be making deals with other arms dealers, regarding the guns theyd be selling to the Mexican drug cartels as well, tho of course, that wouldnt be prudent in regards to the Obama admins agenda

 

[johnsonma]

The point of this whole beef is the government, specifically the Obama administration, attemped to create a false pretense in which to limit the freedoms of the American people. Period. It resulted in the death of a US federal agent, and who knows how many Mexican officials and citizens. It criminal what happened. But who gets thrown under the bus? The whistle blowing agents of the BATFE.

There it is, the government conspiracy to limit freedoms of the American people, its like your a prophet of GB. I can agree to the reasonable argument that this was wrong and the people involved should be investigated and held accountable, but the second you start spiting out those conspiracy theories about the government taking away our freedoms you lose all your credibility. I wonder if you were in favor of the patriot act?

 

[johnsonma]

Like the saying says, guns dont kill people, people kill people, with or without guns.

So your saying, its not the BATFA's fault at all and they did nothing wrong, correct?

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

never mind

 

[johnsonma]

Why else would they do this then? President Obama stood side by side with Mexican President Calderon in 2009 and blamed Mexico's crime and violence on American's 2nd amendment. Even now Calderon is promoting that idea with campaign on the border. There is a now a huge sign made of pulverized guns on the border that says "No Guns Here" or some such. The sign is facing the US border. What message is that supposed to convey?

So I ask, why engage in this operation? As shown in the timeline thread it wasn't to catch the cartel head. Mexican authorities already knew who and where the guy was. So why? What could possibly be the end result?

If they had actually made arrests then I could go along with the argument they were trying to stifle the smuggling, but they didn't. They let the guns walk across the border and disappear, on purpose.

So I ask you again. What could possibly be the purpose of this operation? You are very naive if you think the governement is not capable of such a thing. Ever heard of the Gulf of Tonkin?

No, I do not support the Patriot Act. If it was being used against the radical Islamofacist that are the real threat instead of American citizens I might supportit, but it is not. It's a travesty.

Well at least we agree on the Patriot Act.

The purpose of the operation was to map the flow of weapons, much like they map the flow of money within a drug ring. It failed and blew up in their faces though, so now they are going to have to deal with the consequences. As far as the government secretly out to get our 2nd amendment, I refer you to our discussion in the church vs state tread about paranoid conspiracy theories.

 

[johnsonma]

It's not a paranoid conspiracy dude. I listen to their own words and more importantly, I pay attention to what they actually do. Typically, what they say and what they do are two different things.

If you really think that they let some weapons go across the border so that they could use that as an excuse to change the constitution, I fell bad for you.

 

[riser]

I love the Democrat's statement in Congress that something like 97% of all traceable guns were from the US. That's because we're one of the only countries that actually trace them.