P-IV speed Increase when. . . .

noko

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How much faster will the Northwood be when it is a .13 micron chip then the .18 micron P-IV. Since the chip traces are much closer together the electrons will not have to travel as far. What effect does this have on performance? In addition how much of an effect will 512kb of onboard cache will have? Seems like to me the Northwood will be an Awesome chip.
 

Phelk

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~ How much faster will the Northwood be when it is a .13 micron chip then the .18 micron P-IV ~

Does anyone remember what was the max of the 0.25 micron (Was it P2-500Mhz, I can't remember). A general rule of thumb is take the difference and cube it.

(0.18/0.13)^3 = 2.65

2.65 * current 1.7Ghz = 4.5Ghz

(0.13/0.10)^3 = 2.2

4.5Ghz * 2.2 = 9.9Ghz

~ how much of an effect will 512kb of onboard cache will have? ~

Depends on the app, most love it, some don't care too much, overall it will make a big difference as the CPU's are so damn fast these days.

<font color=blue> The Revolution starts here... as soon as I finish my coffee </font color=blue> :eek:
 

noko

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Thanks for the reply. Also I was wondering how much the performance is affected by decreasing the trace lengths of the chip itself. It appears that the PentIII performance went up more then just the speed increase would have done. Meaning the smaller you make the chip the faster the communication between the various parts of the chip for the same clock speed, increasing the overall performance. I was trying to figure out if the Norwood will have a significant speed boost due to the shrinking of core to the .13micron process not so much on the clock rating.

4.5ghz!!! Impressive.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by noko on 06/25/01 04:38 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
 

juin

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1 part to not forget there surly more room for O*C with a 0.13 micron that a 0.18 who is near is limit.There more that 0.13 and 512 L2 cache.
 

noko

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To me it looks like Intel will have a very competitive chip by the end of this year. Seems like AMD is hesitating somewhat which may come back on them. Still does anyone know how much of a performance increase is achieved by shrinking the core down and keeping the same clock speed. Is it 5%? 10%? 20%?

The 512kb cache (that is if I am correct) of the Norwood would cut down on the latency of the Rambus ram as far as I see it.

By the beginning of next year looks like Intel will again gain the performance crown with a significant margin, maybe even before. Not sure about the price since AMD chips are so cheap now to obtain, hopefully the quality is maintained.

I take it that AMD by next year will also have a .13 Athlon chip and all of this maybe mute once again.
 
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shrinking the core mostly benefits the highest clock the chip can do before it craps out, or am I wrong here?
 

bhc

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You are probably right about the 4.5 GHz, but the rule of thumb is too crude. Nowadays I think the advancement of clock speed depends heavily on:
1. Design. With the same 0.18 micron technology, PIII could not go beyond 1 GHz, but P4 could scale 1.7 GHz. It is because the new 21-stage pipeline design makes the differences. Of course, we know clock speed does not necessarily mean performance when there is a trade-off between clock speed and efficiency.
2. Heat management. Shorter channel length allows comparable drive current with lower supply voltage, which is the key to high clock speed since for a given chip, power goes with fV^2, where f is the clock speed and V is the supply voltage. Without a significant reduction of V, ultra high clock speed would be impossible (at least for air cool).
3. Reliability. However, in order to scale the transistors the gate oxide needs to be reduced as well. When the gate oxide gets too thin, the leakage and reliability become show stoppers. For example, Intel is using ~1.5 nm thick (about 5 mono-layers) silicon oxide for its 0.13 micron technology. Since no one can afford to run thousands of devices for 5 years to come up precise reliability data, everyone has been counting on accelerated aging tests (higher current and temperature) to predict reliability. Well, it is pretty controversial about how reliable such a think gate oxide can be and how much the accelerated tests can tell us at this point. Companies such as Intel basically charge ahead without a consensus from the industry. I can appreciate that they may not have a choice because of severe competition, but we will see what happen to those devices in a year or two.

**Spin all you want, but we the paying consumers will have the final word**
 

74merc

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yea, I'm betting just a die shrink would be worth .01% increase or something else rediculously small.
but how many times have we seen a die shrink and no addition of L2 or added MMX or SSE?

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Independant thought is good.
It won't hurt for long.
 
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Athlon classic went from 0.25 to 0.18 without getting ekstra L2 - ondie L2 came 6 months later
 

noko

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That was true and the performance for the same speed chip was the same if I remembered right. Thanks for jogging my memory. So the only performance boost that the Northwood will have is the increase clock speed and possible larger L2 cache. Any other know modifications like a second FPU?
 

74merc

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how do you come up with that?
you expect an identical processor to run inhertantly faster at the same Mhz just because of a die shrink?

----------------------
Independant thought is good.
It won't hurt for long.
 

HolyGrenade

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Shrinking the die won't automatically increase the performance but rather allow for more things in the chip. One of the biggest benifits would be running much cooler, which would help in increasing the clock speeds. The smaller die size will allow more things to be added like more cache. But the closer proximity will help in a minute performance increase.

BTW, electrons are pretty slow, but you don't need an electron to get from one part A of the CPU to part B to transmit the data.

<font color=red><i>Tomorrow I will live, the fool does say
today itself's too late; the wise lived yesterday
 

Phelk

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A reduction of die size should provide no measurable speed improvement, a clock cycle is a clock cycle. Each individual cycle may complete quicker but it will wait until the next cycle is due.

It is much like a ticking watch performing one movement every second, if you cut the second hand in half the end travels less distance but it still only ticks every second.

<font color=blue> The Revolution starts here... as soon as I finish my coffee </font color=blue> :eek:
 

noko

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What is the effect of shrinking down the heat transfer surface area? Seems like catch 22, a lower voltage can be used and less current flow but now you have to transfer the heat in 1/2 the area getting you back to square one again battling with excessive tempertures.
 
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"BTW, <font color=red>electrons are pretty slow</font color=red>, but you don't need an electron to get from one part A of the CPU to part B to transmit the data."

umm, what part of 'the speed of light' is slow???

i do agree with you about electrons not actually travelling the whole way - i understand that they push each other along..




however, we all start at the end and finish at the begining
 
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>umm, what part of 'the speed of light' is slow???

umm, electrons have <A HREF="http://physics.nist.gov/cgi-bin/cuu/Value?me" target="_new">mass</A>. So according to <A HREF="http://www.astronomynotes.com/relativity/relativa.htm" target="_new">Einstein's Special Relativity</A>, they can't move at the speed of light.

<i>Cognite Tute</i>
(Think for Yourself)
 

HolyGrenade

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I know what you are saying, but the thing is the heat generation is drastically reduced when the die is shrinked, just like you said, because a lower voltage suffices. There is the increased problem of removing the heat from the smaller surface area, but the temperature generated per unit surface area is much lower.

I'm sorry I can't give you any figures or any details or links, but thats how I think it goes. I think you'd have to look at some physics sites to get some detailed info. I'll let you know if I find any.


<font color=red><i>Tomorrow I will live, the fool does say
today itself's too late; the wise lived yesterday
 
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so sorry for the misconception, whatever, a couple of m/s is fucall. still very fast no matter on the exact number.

what IS important is that everyone realises what a POS current P4 is.

when P4.5 comes out you can bleat all you want, until then, buy the better chip......





however, we all start at the end and finish at the begining
 

HolyGrenade

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The speed of an electron down a copper wire is about 3m/s =~ 6mph =~ 6.5kph. Thats about as fast as that dude that power walks past my house every morning.

I know this fact surprises most people. The fact about the electron is surprising too! :wink:


<font color=red><i>Tomorrow I will live, the fool does say
today itself's too late; the wise lived yesterday
 
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got any links???

3 m/s = 10.8 km/h


P4 still stinks




however, we all start at the end and finish at the begining
 
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>The speed of an electron down a copper wire is about 3m/s =~ 6mph =~ 6.5kph.

Wow, I knew it was far slower then light. But I didn't realize it was <i>that</i> slow!

I plugged some stuff into Google and found an even lower <A HREF="http://www.amasci.com/miscon/speed.html" target="_new">estimate</A>: about 8.4 cm/hour

Of course, it's all dependent on wire diameter, current, etc.


<i>Cognite Tute</i>
(Think for Yourself)