P4 Thermal Throttle Question

2pac

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Hi, I just built a new pc around the p4 1.7 GHz chip and an Intel D850GB motherboard.

I bought the fully boxed chip which came with an Intel heatsing + fan and two 64 MB PC800 Samsung Rimms.

After installing the Intel Active Monitor Software and updating it to the latest version (v1.13).

First of all, I would like to know the temperature at which thermal throttling occurs for this processor, because the temperature range the program is showing is between 40 and 56 degrees celcius. This temperature is labelled as the "Processor Zone" temperature. There are two other readings that are labelled "System Zone 1" and "System Zone 2" And these are showing values that are about 4 to 5 degress lower than the "Processor Zone" reading.

The help-file for the software says that the values shown are not supposed to be accurate and are measured using an ASIC chip..what exactly is this?

I read somewhere that the processor goes into thermal throttling at 35.5 degrees celcius. This effectivly means that my computer is running at half speed. I was wondering if someone could confirm this value?

Another question I have is about the fan. According to the help file, the software monitors fan speeds as well. I am currently only using the cpu fan, which I would have thought would have been able to send speed info as it is an intel fan, on an intel board, with an intel chip?

I am considering adding two fans to the inside of the casing, there are holes for one fan at the front and one at the back of the case. I also recall seeing two extra fan power pins on the board. Would installing these two fans have any major impact on the temperature inside the case or the cpu temperature?
Would it lead to a noticable increase in noise?

Thank-you

- Omar


P.S - For anyone who is going to ask why I didn't buy an Athlon...I wanted one but the availability in the middle east sucks!
 

2pac

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I can't believe it!
I forgot to attach the extra small power connector to the board!

Should this affect the temperature?

- Omar
 

lhgpoobaa

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depends on how hot it gets inside your case.
the hotter it gets the more benefit your going to see by installing fans.
i have no experience with the p4 1.7, but im assuming it pumps out a significant amount of heat.
is your internal case temp over 30 deg c? if so get a case fan or two.
i havnt got any on mine and im running a athie 1.2C
i take the side off and both mb & cpu temps drop 4 degrees.


My Hamster has 512MB of SDRAM @ 150Mhz CAS 2!
 

bhc

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It's supposedly to be 72C according to a thread here about two months ago:
http://forumz.tomshardware.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=faq&notfound=1&code=1

However, for 1.7 GHz P4 and D8550GB there appears to be a serious problem, either due to thermal throttling or a software (bios) issue. Check out this thread:
http://forumz.tomshardware.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=faq&notfound=1&code=1

Now they found some of results were due to a mix-up:
http://forumz.tomshardware.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=faq&notfound=1&code=1

It is kind of strange. Please read them and judge for yourself.

**Spin all you want, but we the paying consumers will have the final word**
 

Toejam31

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Okay ... first off:

ASIC is the Application Specific Integrated Circuit on your motherboard which measures temperature trends over a period of time. The values shown with the Active Monitor Software are <i>approximate</i> ... but not necessarily inaccurate.

There are two Thermal Diodes that measure temperatures independently of each other that determine the clock throttling trip point. This is also affected by voltage "noise" and the ambient temperature of the air entering the case through the fan inlets, and the ambient temperature inside the case.

Here are the approximate specs released by Intel on the subject.

The system will run best with a maximum ambient temperature of 40C (104F) ... and this is the same for the air temperature at the fan inlet. The inner chassis temperature is recommended to be at 36C (96.8F) or less. Temperatures that rise to 45C (113F) inside the can will cause any variable speed fans to run continuously.

The maximum case temperature is 76C (168.8F). The maximum silicon temperature that will cause a complete shutdown is 135C (275F).

While the trip point temperature is variable, from what I can gather from the material I have read, the low minimum for the trip point is 55C (131F). This can occur anywhere from this point up to a maximum of 64 watts at 70C (158F), which is the full load for the 1.7 P4.

Now ... don't take this as "gospel" ... this is my best educated guess after studying the latest Intel documentation. I'm still in the middle of doing testing with my own system on the subject, and the real-world numbers might be different. Hopefully, there will be more third-party testing on the P4 in the future that will define the average, critical trip point. Hello, Mr. Pabst??? You got some free time to kill??? ;-)

But my current assumption is that clock throttling can be largely avoided if the ambient internal case temperature is kept at 45C or less with a good cooling solution, and the processor is kept at less than 55C. Use of a good PSU that lowers voltage noise will help, as will keeping the system in a relatively cool environment (as with any computer) ... and keeping the dust level down that enters the chassis.

I would think that adding those fans you mentioned would be a good idea. Personally, I also like adding intake filters, which really do a good job in cutting down on dust bunnies.

If you buy 3 pin fans ... be sure and reinstall the Active Monitor Software, so it can locate the fans.

In my opinion ... I seriously doubt that your CPU is clock throttling at 35.5C (95.9F) while idle. At least, I assume that temperature is at idle, or close to it. My processor at idle runs from 29C (84.2F) to 30C (86F). Are you using the stock Intel heatsink, and did you apply the thermal compound correctly? Just based on my average temps ... your proc appears to be running a little warm. IMHO. But not enough to be worrisome.

I have yet to see evidence of clock throttling with my P4, even at 38C (100.4F) ... which is the highest temperature I have recorded while playing various games, such as Black & White (for about 12 hours straight.) I also have not seen any drastic drop in frame rates due to clock throttling while playing Quake 3, Tribes 2, or Giants: Citizen Kabuto. The same can be said of multi-tasking, even with programs such as Photoshop 6, I.E. 5, using the Plexwriter to burn a CD, and having a running game loaded ... all at once. I also have a program called Heavyload that is a fairly tough burn-in and testing program ... and after running it for a solid hour ... still no evidence of clock throttling.

My two cents.

Toejam31

<font color=purple>My Rig:</font color=purple> <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847" target="_new">http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847</A>
 

2pac

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Thank you all so much for your help.

The temps of the processor according to the intel monitor are between 40 and 56 celcius. This is the highest of the three temperatures shown, so I assume this is the actual cpu temp. System Zone 1 temps are shown to be about 4 degrees less and System Zone 2 is shown to be 5 degrees less than the Processor Zone. I am assuming that the System Zone temperatures are a measure of case temperature.

I am going to be getting the new fans as soon as possible. My case has space to add a fan at the front and a fan at the back of the casing. COuld you please tell me what kind of a temperature drop I can expect from no-branded case fans like these?

This is the first processor I have bought that actually came with thermal paste, so I certainly hope I put it on correctly. I take it there is nothing I can do now that the paste is on?

I spread the past on the top of the cput before attaching the intel heatsink and fan. As I said, this was included in the boxed cpu, so I am assuming that it meets intel specs.

Again I would appreciate any more info.

- Omar
 

rcf84

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Get a Water cooler for your cpu. Only $100 not bad keep it at 20c and under so you have full speed. Isn't 2ghz northwood around 30w?

Nice Intel and AMD users get a Cookie.... :smile: Yummy :smile:
 

FUGGER

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Your temps are normal, you should never experiance the processor throttling back unless your HSF slows to 2RPM or you take a heat gun and blow it directly at your CPU
 

Toejam31

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You are welcome ... glad I could help.

I'm pretty sure that the System Zone 1 temperature is the ambient temperature of the case, and the System Zone 2 temperature is the motherboard. Or they could both be motherboard temperatures! The help menu in the software is kinda vague about this ... more on it later, once I have some additional time to figure it out. I prefer a thermal probe, anyway, over monitor/software based solutions. 12 to 15 dollars for a probe, and you'll know exactly what is happening. Cheap peace-of-mind.

Yep ... that's a hint!

I can't really tell you what kind of changes in temperature to expect with the new fans. That depends on the case, the internal layout, the cables, and what peripherals you have, etc. You'll just have to stick them in and see what happens!

I don't think it will make much difference whether you use brand-name fans or no-name fans. The better fans might have a slightly higher RPM, (which may move a little more air) and last longer, especially if they are ball-bearing, instead of brushless. But that's really the only difference. Ball-bearing fans tend to be louder than brushless, regardless of the brand. If noise is an issue, consider installing some cell foam. Here's a good place to get parts ... I order from them all the time:

<A HREF="http://2cooltek.safeshopper.com/" target="_new">http://2cooltek.safeshopper.com/</A>

The thermal grease that Intel uses for their processors really isn't worth squat, at least, not in my opinion. They use ShinEtsu G749, which is an aluminum oxide-based compound. I prefer Arctic Silver II, which is, of course, silver-based. There's a big difference in the thermal conductivity. The G749 is 2.9W/mK, while the Arctic Silver II is 8.4W/mK. This is why you'll see people who like to overclock using silver-based compounds. Every little bit counts.

If I were you, I'd reinstall the processor with some Arctic Silver II, and get a better heatsink. My recommendations for that would be the Globalwin WAW-38, with a Delta Black Label fan (the best, but the loudest) or a Taisol CEP405092, which is a low-profile heatsink and fan that is very quiet, and nearly as good as the Globalwin. Whichever, use the Arctic Silver sparingly, because too much of it between the heatsink and the CPU die/heatspreader can act as an insulator, instead of a thermal conductor.

For a ratio, consider that 5mm of thermal grease is likely to be 10 to 15 times more than is necessary!

You can clean the old thermal grease off with some alcohol or acetone and a clean rag. Just be sparing with the liquid, and get the heatsink and the CPU die very clean before you start over. It also wouldn't hurt for you to pick up some fine-grade sandpaper, like 1000-1500 grit that is used for automotive paint, and sand the bottom of the heatsink. The better the "fit" between the two surfaces, the less thermal grease you'll need.

Less is more.

The key to this is to place the sandpaper on a slightly damp, flat surface (instead of in your hand) and rub the heatsink over it, with smooth, even strokes. I have a piece of Plexiglass I use for this. Your hand can't sand smoothly enough to make the heatsink completely flat, and you don't need a concave area on the bottom ... that could be worse than when you started.

Look around at some of the overclocking sites, and you'll find tons of advice from people on the different ways to cool a processor, including water-cooling, and duct work ... as well as standard air-cooling.

More? LOL!

See ya ...

Toejam31

<font color=purple>My Rig:</font color=purple> <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847" target="_new">http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847</A>
 

2pac

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WOW - Thanks for all the information!
However, I have no plans to spend any more money on this comp after buying the two case fans..plus I don't see myself trying to overclock it in the forseeable future.

If the temps I have are ok, then I will just stick to the intel heatsink and thermal compound, because I REALLY don't want to mess up this comp. :)

I will still buy the two fans though.

Again..thank you for all your help and advise.
 

2pac

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I was going to ask this question about the p4.

I have disabled Power Management features from the BIOS and in windows because I just don't like them :)
I have only enabled the monitor standby feature through the display settings in Windows (98 SE). When I leave the computer for short periods of time, the monitor comes back on fine. However when I leave it for an hour or so and come back, the monitor comes on, but the screen is all garbled and is unusable. Any idea of what is causing this?
I think the system is still working and responding, it's just that the display is tottally garbled.

Thanks again

- Omar

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by 2Pac on 06/19/01 12:19 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
 
G

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Hmm.. did you configure a screensaver by any chance ? An OpenGL one ? If so, try to run the screensaver with your monitor powered on. Sounds like a videocard driver issue to me.

---- Owner of the only Dell computer with a AMD chip
 

Toejam31

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Here's a couple of links that might help you troubleshoot the APM issue.

<A HREF="http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q185/9/49.ASP?LN=EN-US&SD=gn&FR=0&qry=Monitor Advanced Power Management&rnk=24&src=DHCS_MSPSS_gn_SRCH&SPR=W98SE" target="_new">http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q185/9/49.ASP?LN=EN-US&SD=gn&FR=0&qry=Monitor Advanced Power Management&rnk=24&src=DHCS_MSPSS_gn_SRCH&SPR=W98SE</A>

<A HREF="http://support.microsoft.com/support/windows/tshoot/apm98/apmvideotest.asp" target="_new">http://support.microsoft.com/support/windows/tshoot/apm98/apmvideotest.asp</A>

It's really not unusual for APM features to cause odd problems, or sometimes not work at all. I hope the links and the tool will help you.

Think about what I said about the thermal grease and heatsink if your processor reaches around 56C, and you begin noticing performance problems.

Best of luck ... and post again if you need anything else. That's why we're here!

Toejam31


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Kelledin

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Adding to that...Intel motherboards use a Phoenix BIOS, which I'm pretty sure has a somewhat broken APM implementation (Phoenix BIOS APM doesn't work <i>at all</i> in Linux). IMHO the Phoenix BIOS reams ass overall, which is why I will probably never buy an Intel-manufactured motherboard.

Moving on...

The Phoenix BIOS does have a working ACPI implementation. I myself have found that ACPI is generally a much better and more stable solution that APM. However, I don't believe Win98 can take advantage of it (Win2K and Linux can though).

Kelledin

"/join #hackerz. See the Web. DoS interesting people."
 

2pac

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Again thank-you for your help

As I said, I have disabled all power management features in the BIOS, and I'm only using the moitor standby feature through windows. I have not set a screensaver.

i will read those articles and get back to you, thanks again

- Omar
 

Toejam31

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Absolutely correct ... in every respect. The board is very stable, perhaps the most stable I've seen in a long time ... but the BIOS really sucks!

I can't emphasize the "really sucks" part enough. Use your imagination and add the appropriate cussing. <GRIN>

Toejam31

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FUGGER

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BS, the BIOS is fine. works 100% on all the systems we have out in the field.

Its the version of operating system/video driver.
Upgrade to Windows ME, (AMD lemmins back the [-peep-] off, ME works great w/ P4)

You might want to check out microsoft update.
 

2pac

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I really really really don't like ME, so I'm gonna wait a while and get either Win2k or WinXP.

I downloaded the very latest drivers for the graphics card. The card is a Hercules 64Mb GeForce MX 2 btw. I downloaded the very latest Hercules released detonator drivers v12.40

Thanks
- Omar
 
G

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ME sucks...I prefer Win2K anyday

M

if at first you don't succeed , destroy all evidence that you ever tried...
 

Toejam31

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Yes, FUGGER, the BIOS works. And it is stable.

But it is also very limited in features. Anyone who prefers to have a BIOS that allows system tweaking, in almost any respect, would prefer to avoid an OEM-type BIOS like this one.


It certainly would not appeal to someone who wants to overclock. And that is not BS.

WinME had horrible non-Plug-N-Play support right from the start. It's default configuration is a memory-hog. Most IT personnel regard it as nothing more than window dressing for Win98 ...and a stopgap measure by the company to make some extra money before the launch of XP. I've spent more time formatting drives and replacing the OS with Win98 than with any previous OS that Microsoft has released. That's not BS, either.

And I'm not an AMD burnout, so you can't judge my opinion based on that theory. Just in case you wondered.

On an additional note, you'll notice that 2Pac is already using the latest video card drivers for his card, which would be the same driver if he was running WinME.

In my experience, Power Management features tend to be buggy, regardless of the video card driver. For instance, on my home system, Hibernation mode really isn't functional ... and this doesn't have anything to do with the video card driver ... or because of devices writing to the system. It just doesn't work very well ... which is no surprise, and typical of ACPI in Win2k.

Not a flame ... you understand; I have no interest in that, at all. I'm a "facts and figures" guy. Flames just make threads useless, that otherwise might be educational for the reader.

Have a good one ...

Toejam31


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