PAL flicker

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danr

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Is this normal:
We are setting up an Avid to edit PAL footage in the US. We have a proper PAL
reference and the Avid is capable of editing PAL. We have a Sony monitor that
automatically switches between PAL and NTSC. Everything is fine except that
there is a lot of flicker on the Sony monitor. I know it is more flicker than
would be tolerated in PAL countries. I am wondering if this is a result of the
monitor getting power from US 60 HZ AC? Has anyone here experienced this and
might there be a work around?
 
Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Because pal is 50hz, thats 25 frames a second. NTSC is 60hz= 30
frames a second...

You can get rid of the flicker if you use a monitor that has a
longer persistence of vision.

antistatic filters can be a temporary fix to heal bugging eyes resulting
from the flicker
Reducing your screen brightness and contrast controls will also help reduce
the flicker.



--
Brian Alves

Listen to the new podcast
for DV creators- The DV Show!
http://www.thedvshow.com




DanR <dhr22@sorrynospm.com> wrote in message
news:h%40e.2706$yq2.575@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
> Is this normal:
> We are setting up an Avid to edit PAL footage in the US. We have a proper
PAL
> reference and the Avid is capable of editing PAL. We have a Sony monitor
that
> automatically switches between PAL and NTSC. Everything is fine except
that
> there is a lot of flicker on the Sony monitor. I know it is more flicker
than
> would be tolerated in PAL countries. I am wondering if this is a result of
the
> monitor getting power from US 60 HZ AC? Has anyone here experienced this
and
> might there be a work around?
>
>
 
Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 03:02:37 GMT, "DanR" <dhr22@sorrynospm.com> wrote:

>Is this normal:
>We are setting up an Avid to edit PAL footage in the US. We have a proper PAL
>reference and the Avid is capable of editing PAL. We have a Sony monitor that
>automatically switches between PAL and NTSC. Everything is fine except that
>there is a lot of flicker on the Sony monitor. I know it is more flicker than
>would be tolerated in PAL countries. I am wondering if this is a result of the
>monitor getting power from US 60 HZ AC? Has anyone here experienced this and
>might there be a work around?

Another potential cause is electromagnetic interference from the scan
coils of other monitors, transformers in power amps etc. Try moving
the Sony monitor away from any other gear and see if that helps.

Steve


The Doctor Who Restoration Team Website
http://www.restoration-team.co.uk
 
Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

DanR wrote:
> Is this normal:
> We are setting up an Avid to edit PAL footage in the US. We have a proper PAL
> reference and the Avid is capable of editing PAL. We have a Sony monitor that
> automatically switches between PAL and NTSC. Everything is fine except that
> there is a lot of flicker on the Sony monitor. I know it is more flicker than
> would be tolerated in PAL countries. I am wondering if this is a result of the
> monitor getting power from US 60 HZ AC? Has anyone here experienced this and
> might there be a work around?

Do you mean you have a mult-standard Sony TV?
I think one of the explanations for the flicker (aside
from the others given in this thread) is that a PAL-only
TV has a different, i.e. slower, screen phosphor coating that
works best for 50Hz. However, a multi-standard TV needs
to have a faster coating as it must also accomodate 60 Hz.
That results in increased flicker for PAL.

Karl

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Steve Roberts wrote:

>> [Problems with PAL footage flickering on a PAL capable monitor in
>> the US]

> Another potential cause is electromagnetic interference from the scan
> coils of other monitors, transformers in power amps etc. Try moving
> the Sony monitor away from any other gear and see if that helps.

Part of it could also be caused by a beat frequency from 60 Hz
fluorescent light fixtures. Incandescent lighting may help.

Another explanation might just be the way how the brain and the eye
adjusts to different refresh rates over longer periods. For example, if
I use a computer monitor adjusted to 100 Hz refresh rate for a while,
then suddenly turn to look another monitor which is set up to use a 60
Hz (or 50 Hz) refresh rate, the latter monitor will seem to flicker
_considerably more_ than is usual - for a while, until the brain
adjusts.

Sometimes this adjusting process can take days. Every now and then
someone will relate a story about an American visiting Europe and
finding the 50 Hz tv flicker highly objectionable, as it is not what he
is used to, then finally adjusting to it after a couple of days (or
weeks.)

--
znark
 
Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

In article <Apk0e.2571$_c1.815@reader1.news.jippii.net>,
"Jukka Aho" <jukka.aho@iki.fi> writes:
>
> Sometimes this adjusting process can take days. Every now and then
> someone will relate a story about an American visiting Europe and
> finding the 50 Hz tv flicker highly objectionable, as it is not what he
> is used to, then finally adjusting to it after a couple of days (or
> weeks.)
>
Of course, being in UK for several months, I couldn't adjust to it.
Well, I could watch the 50Hz TV sets, but it took away alot of the
casual aspect of watching TV.

On the other hand, during a recent trip to the UK, I had warned one of
my co-workers about the flicker... Alas, we stayed in a high-brow hotel,
and their TVs were 100Hz!!! He was wondering about all of the flicker
that I warned him about... Then, a few days later, we had to stay in
a cheapo-airport hotel next to Gatwick, and they had the 50Hz TVs and
finally, he truly understood what I meant... (We are in the TV/video
business, and I was amazed that he hadn't had more experience with 50Hz
video in the states.)

The 50Hz flicker is always 'there', it is 'there' even when you are
used to it, but it becomes less objectionable.

John
 
Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

DanR wrote:
> Is this normal:
> We are setting up an Avid to edit PAL footage in the US. We have a proper PAL
> reference and the Avid is capable of editing PAL. We have a Sony monitor that
> automatically switches between PAL and NTSC. Everything is fine except that
> there is a lot of flicker on the Sony monitor. I know it is more flicker than
> would be tolerated in PAL countries. I am wondering if this is a result of the
> monitor getting power from US 60 HZ AC? Has anyone here experienced this and
> might there be a work around?

Thanks for all the suggestions. It looks like we've offended one of our PAL
pals. Most NTSC video folks acknowledge the shortcomings of that system. "Never
the Same Color".
The AVID I mentioned is back to NTSC editing... the PAL session is a few weeks
away. We will watch the video levels on the monitor, keep florescent lighting
out of that room and make sure 60HZ is not radiating from near by gear.
Will also do the physiological test to see if our brains adopt.
 
Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Karl Waclawek wrote:
> DanR wrote:
>> Is this normal:
>> We are setting up an Avid to edit PAL footage in the US. We have a proper PAL
>> reference and the Avid is capable of editing PAL. We have a Sony monitor that
>> automatically switches between PAL and NTSC. Everything is fine except that
>> there is a lot of flicker on the Sony monitor. I know it is more flicker than
>> would be tolerated in PAL countries. I am wondering if this is a result of
>> the monitor getting power from US 60 HZ AC? Has anyone here experienced this
>> and might there be a work around?
>
> Do you mean you have a mult-standard Sony TV?
> I think one of the explanations for the flicker (aside
> from the others given in this thread) is that a PAL-only
> TV has a different, i.e. slower, screen phosphor coating that
> works best for 50Hz. However, a multi-standard TV needs
> to have a faster coating as it must also accomodate 60 Hz.
> That results in increased flicker for PAL.
>
> Karl
>
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The Sony monitor... I forget the model number at the moment but it's a
professional monitor that switches on the fly between NTSC, PAL and SECAM. So,
it's possible the phosphor coating is accentuating what we see as excessive
flicker. During our test a few days ago we did kill the florescent lights in the
room and that seemed to make little or no difference. There was some florescent
light leaking in from the hallway. There is a waveform and vector scope near the
monitor. It was referenced to a PAL signal but powered by 60HZ AC. (as was the
monitor itself)
I was hoping for some clear cut answer but since posting here I've done a lot of
Goggling and see that this topic is controversial with most saying that the
brain adapts to the 25 FPS picture.
 
Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

DanR wrote:

> The Sony monitor... I forget the model number at the moment but it's a
> professional monitor that switches on the fly between NTSC, PAL and SECAM. So,
> it's possible the phosphor coating is accentuating what we see as excessive
> flicker. During our test a few days ago we did kill the florescent lights in the
> room and that seemed to make little or no difference. There was some florescent
> light leaking in from the hallway. There is a waveform and vector scope near the
> monitor. It was referenced to a PAL signal but powered by 60HZ AC. (as was the
> monitor itself)
> I was hoping for some clear cut answer but since posting here I've done a lot of
> Goggling and see that this topic is controversial with most saying that the
> brain adapts to the 25 FPS picture.

The reason I answered is because I do have a multi-standard Sony TV.
In my opinion it flickers more than a regular PAL TV (when displaying PAL).

Karl

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"Karl Waclawek" wrote ...
> The reason I answered is because I do have a multi-
> standard Sony TV. In my opinion it flickers more than
> a regular PAL TV (when displaying PAL).

I'd bet that CRTs designed for PAL have longer-persistence
phosphors than those for NTSC. If you're making a multi-
standard CRT monitor, you must choose between smear @
30Hz or flicker @ 25 Hz.
 
Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

Richard Crowley wrote:
> "Karl Waclawek" wrote ...
>
>> The reason I answered is because I do have a multi-
>> standard Sony TV. In my opinion it flickers more than a regular PAL TV
>> (when displaying PAL).
>
>
> I'd bet that CRTs designed for PAL have longer-persistence
> phosphors than those for NTSC. If you're making a multi-
> standard CRT monitor, you must choose between smear @
> 30Hz or flicker @ 25 Hz.

That is what I said in my original message. 🙂

Karl
 
Archived from groups: rec.video.desktop (More info?)

In article <h%40e.2706$yq2.575@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com>,
dhr22@sorrynospm.com (DanR) wrote:

> Is this normal:
Difficult to be sure without seeing it but it may be. A lot of Americans I
know have found UK TV to be very flickery until they get used to it. We're
raised on 50hz so don't notice it.

Iain
 
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