PC-133 seems to run at 66...

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Hi!

I have a Celeron 600 + Soyo 7VCA (Chipset VIA Appolo Pro 133 694X). I know it support 66MHz, 100MHz and 133MHz SDRAM, but my RAM doesn't seem to be at 133, if I look in Sandra it say: Memory Bus Speed: 67MHz.

Is it because the CPU is a 67MHz CPU, or something else is going wrong? BTW, Im sure my RAM is 133MHz.

Thanks.
 
I think it's probably due to your processor. However, I'm not very familiar with that board, so you might want to wait for more replies from others.

Rob
Please visit <b><A HREF="http://www.ncix.com/canada/index.cfm?affiliateid=319048" target="_new">http://www.ncix.com/canada/index.cfm?affiliateid=319048</A></b>
 
Face it. its a cellery.

regardless of what ram or motherboard you have, if a celleron is installed the bus speed (FSB) is set to a default 66Mhz.
so unless you actively overclock the FSB you are stuck with 66mhz FSB and 66mhz ram.
one of the reasons why cellerons dont perform as well as equivalent clocked pentium2 or 3's or durons.
the other being that the cellerons have less onboard cache.

so as for solutions:

1. upgrade to pentium 3 so u can use the 133 bus speed. check your motherboard manual for what type of pentium3's it can handle. cost = high. risk = low

2. overclock your celleron. as the multiplier of the celleron is locked, you have one option. increasing the bus speed. typically most motherboards allow steps like 66, 75,83,100,112.
cost = low/nill risk = medium.
if you do this you may need to also increase the voltage.
doing this has a number of advantage: u use a faster bus speed & ram speed, the total Mhz of your processor is increased by the same factor
and disadvantages: faster = hotter. may not run beyond a limit (depends on processor), and your PCI/AGP devices are also overclocked (can be bad).

good news though... with a celleron 600 you should be able to overclock to the 75 or 83 Mhz system bus, giving u a processor speed of 675 or 747 (with luck)
have a look around your bios. see what bus speed settings are available.

good luck



In memory of the 90+ Auzzies missing in the WTC disaster. An attack that has changed the world.
 
Just get a really nice and big heatsink, add many fans, and OC the FSB stepping by stepping. After each OC, let it sit for an hour or 2, and if thereisn;t a monitor on the mobo for heat, touch the heatsink, and see if it seems to hot (if teh thing is glowing red DO NOT TOUCH IT!)

When I rule the world, Apple will only mean the fruit.
 
Posted by lhgpoobaa:
<font color=blue>“…Face it. its a cellery.
regardless of what ram or motherboard you have, if a celleron is installed the bus speed (FSB) is set to a default 66Mhz.”]</font color=blue>

Fine.

<font color=blue>[”…so unless you actively overclock the FSB you are stuck with 66mhz FSB and 66mhz ram….”]</font color=blue>

Why?
I have an older, MS-6153VA VIA Apollo Pro133-based Mainboard with Celeron 500.

The jumpers J9 and J10 are closed, so they set to automatically detect the 66 MHz for the CPU FSB.
So I have 66 MHz for CPU FSB for my Celeron. Is it OK?

In the Chipset Feature Setup BIOS table I have Autodetect DIMM/CPI Clk : Enabled.

When I restart the computer, the BIOS shows:

Celeron at 500 MHz
66 MHz FSB
128 MB SDRAM at 133 MHz
CL 2

I think it’s normal. When I change manually memory setting for lower, the BIOS begins to print out its higher recommendations on the startup screen .

I read my manual on page 2-9:

"<font color=red> WARNING: There are three kinds of DIMM specification supported by this mainboard: PC133, PC100 and PC66.
If you use 66MHz CPU Bus Frequency, these three DIMM Specs. is supported…</font color=red> “

That’s exactly what I’m actually using!
As I told you, I tried to set to 100 and 66 Mhz for memory manually, and CAS3 as well, but the BIOS recommends me to return to my recent settings when I enable autodetect.

If it is interesting, I continue to read:

“… If you use 100MHz CPU Bus Frequency, PC100 & PC133 DIMM Specs. is supported.
If you use 133MHz CPU Bus, only PC133 DIMM Specs. is supported."

So, why do you think we have to overclock our mainboards with Celerons in order to get 133MHz for our PC133 memory?
Clarify, please.
 
The speed between the FSB and RAM is limited by the lowest in MHz. Therefore, b/c your celery is set to 66MHz FSB, it can only receive at 66Mhz, regardless of what your RAM is. Therefore, you are truly operating at 66MHz for your RAM. Overclocking the FSB to 133 MHz will mean you can transfer at 133MHz from the FSB, and also 133MHz from teh RAM.

When I rule the world, Apple will only mean the fruit.
 
last year i had a celleron 500.
now this depends on the motherboard very much but some you can either manually change the FSB speed flicking dip switches or set your mobo to "jumperless" and do it in the bios. with my asus p3bf i had the options of 66,75,83 or 100.
unfortunately i could only get 75 to work properly. 83 made the processor speed to high and it locked up on bootup.

you will have to read your mobo manual to see.

as for whats supported, all SDRAM usually is backwards compatible.
so with your celleron, PC66, PC100 & PC133 are all usable, but will be running at ONLY PC66 speed.
much like driving that Ferrari around in 1st or second gear!
to actually use the potential of the pc133 ram you have to increase the fsb!

like i said, its why the celleron doesnt perform as well compared to the pentium3. both the system bus speed AND the speed of the ram are throttled back to only 66Mhz
you could even put super duper PC150 or PC166 ram in there, and it would NOT make a blind bit of difference as the ram speed is controlled by the system bus and thats controlled by what processor you have. and if its a celleron its default is 66mhz
if your lucky your motherboard will allow u to change it. if not, your stuck with it.

In memory of the 90+ Auzzies missing in the WTC disaster. An attack that has changed the world.
 
<font color=blue>
" ...you could even put super duper PC150 or PC166 ram in there, and it would NOT make a blind bit of difference as the ram speed is controlled by the system bus and thats controlled by what processor you have. and if its a celleron its default is 66mhz.."]</font color=blue>
Why?

Still not everything is clear with the speeds of a RAM related to processor speed.

Ok, say the Bus Interface Unit of my Celeron @ 66 MHz sends 64 bits during one clock cycle to the PC133 RAM. It takes, say 3 clocks to get the RAM charged with that 64-bit signal in order to be ready to implement the next operation. Let’s assume, that the processor is busy with only one task and it waits while the memory will be ready to accept the next burst. As I read in the description for the motherboard chipset, it states, that the memory can be clocked independently from the processor front side bus clock.
My question is, does it matter what the memory clock is: 66, 100, or 133 MHz in this case?

What about DMA devices, that operate with RAM independently from the processor?
 
Posted by flamethrower205:
<font color=blue>“…The speed between the FSB and RAM is limited by the lowest in MHz. Therefore, b/c your celery is set to 66MHz FSB, it can only receive at 66Mhz, …”</font color=blue>
OK until now, but
<font color=blue>
”…regardless of what your RAM is. Therefore, you are truly operating at 66MHz for your RAM.]</font color=blue>

Why?
Sorry, I'm confused, don't understand, or just lost here.

OK, also for your example, let’s say the Bus Interface Unit of my Celeron @ 66 MHz receives bits during one clock cycle from the PC133 RAM. But for your example it takes, say at least 3 clocks to get the RAM charged with every 64-bit signal it receives from a peripheral device in order to be ready to implement the next operation. Let’s assume, that the processor is busy with only one task and it waits while the memory will be ready to send the next burst to the processor after it received bits from a peripheral device. Sorry, I have to repeat, that the memory can be clocked independently from the processor front side bus clock.
The same question, does it matter what the memory clock is for your example?

And again, sorry, the same question about DMA devices and RAM.
 
ahhh theres the issue.
u still think its PC133 ram running at 133Mhz.
it may say that on the side of the stick of ram, but for everything else inside your computer its running only at 66Mhz. 66 million cycles per second.
for pentium2,3 and celleron systems the speed of the ram is synchronous (the same) as the bus speed. thats the way it was done.
thus everything is neat.
your celleron 600 for example.
it does 600 million cycles per second. but the bus speed is only 66million. thus the processor can only get data from the system bus once every 9 cycles, 9 being the multiplier
9x66.6 = 600.
and the ram is also locked into the 66mhz bus speed also.
so the processor gets a packet of data from the ram once every 9 cycles.

IF you can somehow run the ram faster than the system bus, for example like with athlon/duron systems (100bus, 133ram)
its been shown that the performance increase is marginal at best, becuase the data always flows at the speed of the slowest component, in this case the 66mhz bus speed.

so unless your system is capable of running the ram asynchronously, it will run the ram at 66mhz, because of the celleron chip installed.


In memory of the 90+ Auzzies missing in the WTC disaster. An attack that has changed the world.
 
Yeah, I see. I have read the manual again,
and the exact phrase does mean that the system autodetects the memory speed and latency.
But as I understand now, it doesn’t mean that the RAM runs faster than the Celeron allows to do.
Holly smokes!
Now I understand why when people post messages and ask about a possibility to upgrade from a PII-450 to a Celeron-600 or higher, even to the newest ones, and the answer is: “go with PIII”. Or: "Go with new mobo and Athlon instead" {sometimes Duron).

Thank you very, very much!

Two things to know more for me:
1 - how really bad a Celeron is
(and what can I say and think about those who designed [didn't take much time and talent, eh?] and did the castrate? Any good you think?);
2 – how relatively good P!!! is in comparison with Celeron;
3 – how good Athlon/Duron systems are.

Thanks again. I like this forum with all the message boads, and its participants and honorable members!
 
yep. exactly. the motherboard may detect some nice PC133 ram running at Cas2, but with your cellery in there it definately AINT gonna be running at 133!

a bit of history for u.
the first cellerons came out when the pentium2 was still with the 66mhz bus. they just castrated it (literally) by removing all the cache (OUCH).

later on with the 100 & 133 fsb pentium2's and 3's they had another tool to make it run slower. hamstring the bus speed.
only very recently with the cellery 800 have they finally given it a 100mhz fsb.

Q. how bad is the cellery?
depends on the benchmark. the celleron is different in two aspects, smaller onboard L1 & L2 cache, and slower system bus speed. doing purely numerical calculations with little memory usage its not too bad.
however get any size with those calc's and the limited onboard cache will hamper it greatly. when you get up to complex calculations, floating point operations and memory bandwidth instensive apps (audio, video, GAMES) the celleron really looks anemic compared to the pentium3 (100fsb) and downright sad compared to the 133 fsb pentium3.
do a search of toms old cpu articles...sure to find one or two.
comparing the celleron to the AMD duron:
the duron has a number of advantages over the celleron
a. more onboard cache, from the start.
b. ALWAYS had a 100mhz system bus
c. is basically a much newer design, and particularly has a much better floating point unit.
so...
a 750(100fsb) duron can easily beat a 766(66fsb) cellery cauz of the above mentioned things, and the 800 duron can also beat the 800(100fsb) celleron, mostly becauze of its newer architecture & more L1 cache.
the 100 fsb duron can also be asynchronously mated to 133 mhz ram (the ram actually runs at 133). giving a little more speed.
also, look in the local computer mag and compare the price of a 800mhz duron & celleron. BIG difference! durons are highly affordable!

so in order of allround performance, at the same total Mhz,
in last place is the celleron
then the duron.
in the middle is the 100mhz fsb pentium3
then its a toss up between the 100mhz fsb athlon B and the 133mhz pentium3.
and far outclassing the pentium3 is the athlon'C' (its the one with the 133mhz system bus)

durons/athlons also have another advantage going for them. the pentium3 & cellery are multiplier locked. means the only way u can overclock is to upp the system bus speed, and in excess that can make your pci cards crash your PC.
a trick can be done where the bridges on the chip of the duron or athlon can be closed, unlocking it, thus overclocking can be done changing the multiplier and leaving the bus speed alone. or you can do both.
high end athlons even come from the factory unlocked :)
like mine.

i could write pages about this.
(think i have actually LOL)

the cellery aint dead yet though... the 0.13 micron p3 is being terminated and rebadged the celleron with a lower bus speed of 100. course when u think about it its just dumb, and they do cost quite a bit presently.

course durons/athlons dont have it all their own way. they do run considerably hotter that the p3 or celleron, therfore requiring a quality power supply and a decent cooling solution. they are also quite vulnerable to physical damage if you do something dumb with the heatsink.

as for you with your mobo.
i reccomend you do as what people say.
get a mid range pentium3(133mhz fsb preferable) or, if you have money, a new motherboard and a 1000+mhz athlon. they are extreemly affordable right now.

In memory of the 90+ Auzzies missing in the WTC disaster. An attack that has changed the world.
 
Re: <font color=blue>"..your celleron 600 for example.
it does 600 million cycles per second. but the bus speed is only 66million. thus the processor can only get data from the system bus once every 9 cycles, 9 being the multiplier
9x66.6 = 600.
and the ram is also locked into the 66mhz bus speed also..."</font color=blue>

I'm confused again. Sorry for bothering, another question, not about my opinion now, but why do they write like this:


"For slot 1 processors ...The VIA Apollo Pro chipset already offers Ultra DMA/66 and besides the option of clocking the main memory asynchronously (at the AGP clock speed), as we know it from their Socket 7 chipsets. … And of course you can still use 66 MHz SDRAM in a computer with 100 MHz FSB processor..."
<A HREF="http://www6.tomshardware.com/mainboard/98q4/981109/" target="_new">http://www6.tomshardware.com/mainboard/98q4/981109/</A>


"...The memory bus also comes into play with the Duron, as the SDR chipsets will allow asynchronous 133 MHz memory bus speeds, even when running on a 100 MHz (200 MHz DDR) system bus. <b><font color=red>The Intel Celeron also has this option when using a VIA Apollo Pro 133/A chipset</b></font color=red>, but the more popular i815/E/P/EP chipsets only support the 133 MHz memory speed when using a 133 MHz processor and system bus...."
<A HREF="http://www.hardwarecentral.com/hardwarecentral/reviews/3199/2/" target="_new">http://www.hardwarecentral.com/hardwarecentral/reviews/3199/2/</A>

Model #BS61M
Intel 370 Series
This high performance motherboard supports Intel Celeron processor 500 MHz and spots a 100 MHz bus to get the most out of your DIMMs.
Chipset SiS620 / SiS5595
Processor Support Intel Celeron Socket 370 CPU
Front Side Bus Support 66/100 MHz Front Side Bus Frequency
Asynchronous Host/DRAM Clock Scheme : 66/100 MHz
<A HREF="http://www.procomp.com.tw/usa/english/computer/product/mb/spec.asp?type=BS61M" target="_new">http://www.procomp.com.tw/usa/english/computer/product/mb/spec.asp?type=BS61M</A>

What do they mean ? ? ? ?
 
your example 1:
udma 66 has nothing to do with the system bus speed. udma refers to the max hdd transfer rate protocol, and can be 33,66,100,133 regardless of system bus speed.
with their second statment they mention the word "asynchronous". this only applies to certain chipsets, usually for amd products, where one can run the memory at a different speed to the bus. when the thundabirds and durons first cam out they were all at 100. as was the memory. shortly later they made chipsets that ran at 100 for those processors, but could ALSO run pc133 sdram AT 133mhz. so a 100bus/133mem was a little faster than a 100bus/100mem. course you could do 100bus/66mem... but that would be just dumb, and slow!
this also refers to the second like u provide.
a mix and match approach to bus speeds/processors & ram speeds.


your third link:
thats a gimmic
i had a celleron 500 a while back.
it too had the 66/100 bus speed option, and it had 128Mb of PC100 ram in it.
but cauz it was a celleron, its bus AND ram speed were limited to 66mhz. i COULD overclock it to 75, which also meant my pci devices were running faster than spec, but no further.
that 370 chipset is just set up for the option of having a P3 instead. the cellery = 66, p3 = 100.



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