Question PC freezing forcing hard reset

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Apr 26, 2023
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Where to start, so my sons pc running Windows 10, which we built September 2020 (all new components) has started freezing, mouse pointer just stays dead (primarily when less active and not under any load). It is happening all the time and requires a hard reset to clear. PC is unusable at the moment as it can freeze at any moment, at startup, after playing games or watching films.

Build specs
Psu: Corsair CV650
Mobo: Msi x470 gaming plus max
Cpu: AMD Ryzen 5 3400G 3.7GHz Quad Core
SSD: Kingston A400 M.2-2280 240GB SATA III
Ram: GeIL Orion AMD Edition 16GB (2x8GB) 3600MHz DDR4

We've tried various troibleshoots found online but seem to be getting nowhere :(

We have taken out GPU which was secondhand to see if that was cause of problem; Msi GTX 970 4GB.
Have also removed extra hdd's and replaced original Ssd with WD_BLUE SN570 500GB M.2 2280 PCIe Gen3 NVMe (was a back up drive with the Hdd's) we've tried clean install using both PCIe slots on Mobo
We've run various scans and checks, updated drivers, latest bios, swapped ram around staying with just 8GB and clean install of Win10.
Any suggestions would be really appreciated.
If more info is required please ask and I'll try to provide (might need some help to get the info lol)

Thanks
 
When you say "updated drivers", what do you mean. Do you mean using some third party driver update utility, or using Windows update, or do you mean actually going to the product page for your motherboard and downloading the latest Windows 10 drivers (Be sure to select Windows 10, as Windows 11 drivers are most often not cross OS compatible and may cause problems. Use the drivers designated for the OS you are running. All of the board manufacturers have a drop down menu option above the drivers for this reason) for onboard audio, Realtek LAN and then also downloaded and installed the latest 3400G APU chipset and display driver from the AMD website?

How old is that CV650? That should really be the first suspect as the Corsair CV series power supplies are not just terrible quality, they have very short expected lifespans due to inferior internal component quality. They are worse, by far, than even the CXm series which is about the lowest quality you ever really want to see anybody use in a custom build whether there's a discreet graphics card in use or not.

Even Jon Gerow (JonnyGuru) who was the originator of the JonnyGuru PSU focused website (End of life now) and is currently the head of PSU engineering for Corsair, says the CV is a "use it only if you absolutely have to" type of power supply and that says something when a companies own head of engineering tells you to avoid one of their products.

Also, I would try some different mice, maybe a wired one, to see if the problem is possibly a wireless issue or a problem with the mouse itself. Also, try different types of USB ports.

Freezing like that though is usually due to bad drivers or bad power supply, it certainly could be related to a problem with the motherboard though. I'd take a look at HWinfo and check all the CPU, motherboard and memory temperature readings to be sure it's not a thermal problem, which is unlikely but is always a good idea to rule out since it's easy to do.
 
Apr 26, 2023
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When you say "updated drivers", what do you mean. Do you mean using some third party driver update utility, or using Windows update, or do you mean actually going to the product page for your motherboard and downloading the latest Windows 10 drivers (Be sure to select Windows 10, as Windows 11 drivers are most often not cross OS compatible and may cause problems. Use the drivers designated for the OS you are running. All of the board manufacturers have a drop down menu option above the drivers for this reason) for onboard audio, Realtek LAN and then also downloaded and installed the latest 3400G APU chipset and display driver from the AMD website?

How old is that CV650? That should really be the first suspect as the Corsair CV series power supplies are not just terrible quality, they have very short expected lifespans due to inferior internal component quality. They are worse, by far, than even the CXm series which is about the lowest quality you ever really want to see anybody use in a custom build whether there's a discreet graphics card in use or not.

Even Jon Gerow (JonnyGuru) who was the originator of the JonnyGuru PSU focused website (End of life now) and is currently the head of PSU engineering for Corsair, says the CV is a "use it only if you absolutely have to" type of power supply and that says something when a companies own head of engineering tells you to avoid one of their products.

Also, I would try some different mice, maybe a wired one, to see if the problem is possibly a wireless issue or a problem with the mouse itself. Also, try different types of USB ports.

Freezing like that though is usually due to bad drivers or bad power supply, it certainly could be related to a problem with the motherboard though. I'd take a look at HWinfo and check all the CPU, motherboard and memory temperature readings to be sure it's not a thermal problem, which is unlikely but is always a good idea to rule out since it's easy to do.
Thanks for response.

I've not used any 3rd party utilities, used msi live update 6 and amd driver autodect alongside windows update.

If psu is faulty would it not cause bsod or a black screen. The screen literally just stays fine just no reposnse. Psu was brand new in 2020 although I'm guessing it could be a year more as it is the 2019 model.
I've had pc on in bios and no freezes, if a Psu problem would it not cause freezing in bios also or would load to low. I've got Psu,'s 5 times older still working fine lol.

Tried different mice and moved USB ports around. Checked temperatures using msi utity and they were running fine. Will check the with HWinfo also though. I did look at eventlog and all I can make out is that I'm getting an unknown reset, no log saying why or what caused it.

Thanks
 
Thanks for response.

I've not used any 3rd party utilities, used msi live update 6 and amd driver autodect alongside windows update.

If psu is faulty would it not cause bsod or a black screen. The screen literally just stays fine just no reposnse. Psu was brand new in 2020 although I'm guessing it could be a year more as it is the 2019 model.
I've had pc on in bios and no freezes, if a Psu problem would it not cause freezing in bios also or would load to low. I've got Psu,'s 5 times older still working fine lol.

Tried different mice and moved USB ports around. Checked temperatures using msi utity and they were running fine. Will check the with HWinfo also though. I did look at eventlog and all I can make out is that I'm getting an unknown reset, no log saying why or what caused it.

Thanks
If using xmp/docp turn it off.....test.
 
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Ralston18

Titan
Moderator
And I will add the suggestion to look in Reliability History and Event Viewer.

Either one or both tools may be capturing some error code, warning, or even and informational event that occurs just before or at the time of the freezes.

Reliability History is much more user friendly and the timeline format may reveal some pattern of events.

Event Viewer requires more time and effort to navigate and understand.

To help (from this Forum):

http://www.tomshardware.com/faq/id-3128616/windows-event-viewer.html

Any given error can be clicked for more details. The details may or may not be helpful.
 
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Apr 26, 2023
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I don't see that Geil 3600MHz RAM on the QVL for that motherboard? The fastest Geil RAM in that list is 2400MHz.
We have been running it at 2400MHz, the option to run it faster is available in bios, but we haven't boosted anything, just using defaults. The online retailer we bought all components from had a compatability checker, which gave no issues for using with Mobo. Could that cause compatibility issues after 2+years..
 
Apr 26, 2023
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And I will add the suggestion to look in Reliability History and Event Viewer.

Either one or both tools may be capturing some error code, warning, or even and informational event that occurs just before or at the time of the freezes.

Reliability History is much more user friendly and the timeline format may reveal some pattern of events.

Event Viewer requires more time and effort to navigate and understand.

To help (from this Forum):

http://www.tomshardware.com/faq/id-3128616/windows-event-viewer.html

Any given error can be clicked for more details. The details may or may not be helpful.
So have looked in Reliability History, and just gives same info as I'd found on event viewer. Windows was not shut down properly last time, event viewer gives me a critical; The system has rebooted without cleanly shutting down first. This error could be caused if the system stopped responding, crashed, or lost power unexpectedly.
 
Apr 26, 2023
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When you say "updated drivers", what do you mean. Do you mean using some third party driver update utility, or using Windows update, or do you mean actually going to the product page for your motherboard and downloading the latest Windows 10 drivers (Be sure to select Windows 10, as Windows 11 drivers are most often not cross OS compatible and may cause problems. Use the drivers designated for the OS you are running. All of the board manufacturers have a drop down menu option above the drivers for this reason) for onboard audio, Realtek LAN and then also downloaded and installed the latest 3400G APU chipset and display driver from the AMD website?

How old is that CV650? That should really be the first suspect as the Corsair CV series power supplies are not just terrible quality, they have very short expected lifespans due to inferior internal component quality. They are worse, by far, than even the CXm series which is about the lowest quality you ever really want to see anybody use in a custom build whether there's a discreet graphics card in use or not.

Even Jon Gerow (JonnyGuru) who was the originator of the JonnyGuru PSU focused website (End of life now) and is currently the head of PSU engineering for Corsair, says the CV is a "use it only if you absolutely have to" type of power supply and that says something when a companies own head of engineering tells you to avoid one of their products.

Also, I would try some different mice, maybe a wired one, to see if the problem is possibly a wireless issue or a problem with the mouse itself. Also, try different types of USB ports.

Freezing like that though is usually due to bad drivers or bad power supply, it certainly could be related to a problem with the motherboard though. I'd take a look at HWinfo and check all the CPU, motherboard and memory temperature readings to be sure it's not a thermal problem, which is unlikely but is always a good idea to rule out since it's easy to do.
have used HWinfo and all temps are good, also checked drivers most are running latest, just a few using windows 2006 drivers, will try and list if i can stay using long enough lol Did a userbenchmark test and highest temp i got was 48.8 on cpu
 
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Ralston18

Titan
Moderator
PSU is a likely suspect. (Referencing @Darkbreeze 's comments in Post #2.)

Remember PSU's provide three different voltages (3, 5, and 12) to various system components.

So some components work (or appear to work) while others do not because there is a problem with one of the voltage rails.

And those problems can appear in any different ways depending on circumstances.

Increasing numbers of errors and varying errors are a sign of a faltering/failing PSU. The timeline format of Reliability History can reveal such patterns.

The PSU may well be nearing its' designed in EOL (End of Life) especially if there is a history of heavy gaming use, video editing, or even bit-mining involved.

= = = =

The starting point for me is to power down, unplug, open the case.

Clean out dust and debris.

Then verify by sight and feel that all connector, cards, RAM, jumpers, and case connections are fully and firmly in place. Inspect for signs of damage.

As it seems you have likely done much of that via the replacements and other troubleshooting efforts the PSU, by elimination of other possible culprits, is therefore a more likely culprit.

If possible, swap in another known working PSU for testing purposes. Use only the cables that come with the PSU being swapped in. Do not use cables from any other PSUs.

Also, if you have a multimeter and know how to use it (or know someone who does) the PSU can be tested to some extent.

FYI:

https://www.lifewire.com/how-to-manually-test-a-power-supply-with-a-multimeter-2626158

Not a full test because the PSU is not under load. However, any voltages out of tolerance would make the PSU even more suspect.
 
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Apr 26, 2023
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So I've swapped out the Psu for an evga 500w, started pc opened HWinfo to check sensors readings, checked event log and then opened chrome to post here, as appear to be getting the same warning errors all the time prior to pc freezing. So I was going to c&p, then the pc restarted on its own not a freeze just rebooted, now I've got no access as says: This sign in option is disabled because of failed sign in attempts or repeated shutdowns. Use a different sign~in option or keep your device powered on for at least 2 hours and then try again.
OK pc has now frozen on the start up screen pmsl, feel like I'm fighting a losing cause
Once I'm back in I will try and paste the event warnings here.
Any other posible causes?
Thanks
 
WHAT model of "EVGA 500w" power supply did you get, because basically every "500w" model of EVGA PSU there's ever been has been worse than that CV650 especially if it is an N1, W1 or B1/B3 model. If it IS one of those models, I'd return it immediately and get something that actually has decent quality and uses quality components inside. How do you determine that? By looking at PROFESSIONAL reviews or a tier list created by somebody who has a good idea about what they are doing. Like this one. No, it's not 100% perfect, but it's realistically better than just about anything else out there aside from personal recommendations based on having read the aforementioned reviews ourselves.






Probably a good idea to bench test the whole thing too once you have a reliable power supply.

 
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WHAT model of "EVGA 500w" power supply did you get, because basically every "500w" model of EVGA PSU there's ever been has been worse than that CV650 especially if it is an N1, W1 or B1/B3 model. If it IS one of those models, I'd return it immediately and get something that actually has decent quality and uses quality components inside. How do you determine that? By looking at PROFESSIONAL reviews or a tier list created by somebody who has a good idea about what they are doing. Like this one. No, it's not 100% perfect, but it's realistically better than just about anything else out there aside from personal recommendations based on having read the aforementioned reviews ourselves.






Probably a good idea to bench test the whole thing too once you have a reliable power supply.

The Psu is one I took out of an old rig that was running fine with a amd athlon x4.
Was just to see what happened, the current cv650 is under warranty, as less than 3 years old. I just want to be 100% sure it's not anything else before I make a warranty claim for a new one.
I'm now back in the system, I had to have it in bios for 2 hours to unlock windows.
Would you not expect bios to freeze or crash it it is faulty Psu?
Will post the event warnings I have been getting on a minute
 
So, you took an OLD power supply, that was a poor quality model, and replaced another poor quality model with it? And now you want to get a warranty replacement for a PSU that when new was poor quality as well?

I'll be honest, while it might not seem so to you and while there is ALWAYS the possibility of it being something else, I CAN tell you from YEARS and YEARS of experience in building and troubleshooting systems in real life as well as on these forums, that the problems you are having are VERY COMMON when using the kinds of power supplies you are using. Without putting a unit that has at least marginally decent quality and performance in there, trying to find fault with any other component is just a guessing game because there is NOTHING that can go wrong with a computer that a bad or weak power supply can't mimic, since everything, every single component, relies on the power supply.

A bad PSU can mimic driver problems, faulty hardware, bad motherboard, storage device or cabling, anything. So even if you get an error that looks like it's definitely a driver issue or a bad drive, whatever, if you don't absolutely have a known good no-problems PSU in there, you really can't even guess if that is actually the problem or if it's the power supply causing that device to not work properly, which we see Every. Single. Day.

Never, ever heard of what you're talking about in terms of having to have it "running" for two hours to get into Windows. Sounds like there might be something else going on as well but without a known good power supply that is unquestionably reliable in there so that there is no chance that that is the problem, everything is just going to be guesswork until that is eliminated.
 
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these are the event warnings i have,not sure if they help at all.
What i seem to of found is that while i have the userbenchmark app running and the The Blue Danube playing in background, the pc is running fine.....

  1. The application \Device\HarddiskVolume3\Windows\Temp\AGT\agt.exe with process id 5712 stopped the removal or ejection for the device ROOT\SYSTEM\0003.
  2. The application \Device\HarddiskVolume3\Windows\System32\dwm.exe with process id 1288 stopped the removal or ejection for the device USB\VID_1532&PID_0084&MI_03\9&18edf45a&0&0003.
  3. The machine-default permission settings do not grant Local Activation permission for the COM Server application with CLSID
    {C2F03A33-21F5-47FA-B4BB-156362A2F239}
    and APPID
    {316CDED5-E4AE-4B15-9113-7055D84DCC97}
    to the user DESKTOP-DU90E1O\nicob SID (S-1-5-21-2084516044-2245490902-31171208-1002) from address LocalHost (Using LRPC) running in the application container Microsoft.Windows.ShellExperienceHost_10.0.19041.1949_neutral_neutral_cw5n1h2txyewy SID (S-1-15-2-155514346-2573954481-755741238-1654018636-1233331829-3075935687-2861478708). This security permission can be modified using the Component Services administrative tool.
  4. The application-specific permission settings do not grant Local Activation permission for the COM Server application with CLSID
    {2593F8B9-4EAF-457C-B68A-50F6B8EA6B54}
    and APPID
    {15C20B67-12E7-4BB6-92BB-7AFF07997402}
    to the user DESKTOP-DU90E1O\nicob SID (S-1-5-21-2084516044-2245490902-31171208-1002) from address LocalHost (Using LRPC) running in the application container Unavailable SID (Unavailable). This security permission can be modified using the Component Services administrative tool.
 
Apr 26, 2023
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So, you took an OLD power supply, that was a poor quality model, and replaced another poor quality model with it? And now you want to get a warranty replacement for a PSU that when new was poor quality as well?

I'll be honest, while it might not seem so to you and while there is ALWAYS the possibility of it being something else, I CAN tell you from YEARS and YEARS of experience in building and troubleshooting systems in real life as well as on these forums, that the problems you are having are VERY COMMON when using the kinds of power supplies you are using. Without putting a unit that has at least marginally decent quality and performance in there, trying to find fault with any other component is just a guessing game because there is NOTHING that can go wrong with a computer that a bad or weak power supply can't mimic, since everything, every single component, relies on the power supply.

A bad PSU can mimic driver problems, faulty hardware, bad motherboard, storage device or cabling, anything. So even if you get an error that looks like it's definitely a driver issue or a bad drive, whatever, if you don't absolutely have a known good no-problems PSU in there, you really can't even guess if that is actually the problem or if it's the power supply causing that device to not work properly, which we see Every. Single. Day.

Never, ever heard of what you're talking about in terms of having to have it "running" for two hours to get into Windows. Sounds like there might be something else going on as well but without a known good power supply that is unquestionably reliable in there so that there is no chance that that is the problem, everything is just going to be guesswork until that is eliminated.
Sorry if i seem somewhat ignorant or oblivious to what you are saying , I do get everything you have said and really appreciate the time you're taking to offer advice.

I get best option is to just get a new psu, just trying to cover as many possibilities before having to spend money atm.

It's just frustrating that as long as the pc is actively doing a task, it is running fine as soon as you come of load it is freezing......I'm guessing a faulty psu would not effect the system when running in bios as no load variance....
 
So, you have the userbenchmark software installed? What else is installed? I was under the impression you were having the same problem even with a clean install of Windows. A clean install of Windows generally indicates NOTHING except Windows is installed.

So, if you do a clean install of Windows, then install ONLY the motherboard and AMD specific drivers, and maybe also a browser, do you still have this problem or is it only after you've installed other software that you begin having issues?

Do you have OTHER drives attached to the system BESIDES the one the OS is installed on? When you did a "clean" install of Windows, did you choose the "Custom" option and delete ALL of the existing partitions from Drive 0, and then install to the unpartitioned and unformatted space that remained? This means deleting the existing hidden EFI/Boot and recovery partitions on Drive 0. Did you do this as part of the installation process or no?
 
Sorry if i seem somewhat ignorant or oblivious to what you are saying , I do get everything you have said and really appreciate the time you're taking to offer advice.

I get best option is to just get a new psu, just trying to cover as many possibilities before having to spend money atm.

It's just frustrating that as long as the pc is actively doing a task, it is running fine as soon as you come of load it is freezing......I'm guessing a faulty psu would not effect the system when running in bios as no load variance....
Given the models of PSU involved, and the fact that lower quality or older platforms might generally not support some of the newer power state requirements, or that units might go out of spec under low load conditions, it could still absolutely be a PSU related problem. In fact, in some cases it might be more common than having problems due to the other end of the spectrum with full load issues.

Again, it might well NOT be PSU related, but it's impossible to know without having something you are certain is decent quality and reliable in there, and neither of the units you have fit that description IMO.

I think your best bet is to get a reliable, good quality power supply that's at least 550-650w so that it will without question be enough for that GTX 970 (Which yes, I understand you've removed it and still had this problem. Even so, if you buy a new one you want it to be capable enough that you CAN put the graphics card back in) and then use the information at the link I gave you earlier in order to bench test your hardware. It should get you in the ballpark at least.

Once you have a reliable PSU it would probably be a good idea to run Memtest86 as well, to eliminate the memory as the source of the problem.


Memtest86


Go to the Passmark software website and download the USB Memtest86 free version. You can do the optical disk version too if for some reason you cannot use a bootable USB flash drive.


Create bootable media using the downloaded Memtest86. Once you have done that, go into your BIOS and configure the system to boot to the USB drive that contains the Memtest86 USB media or the optical drive if using that option.


You CAN use Memtest86+, as they've recently updated the program after MANY years of no updates, but for the purpose of this guide I recommend using the Passmark version as this is a tried and true utility while I've not had the opportunity to investigate the reliability of the latest 86+ release as compared to Memtest86. Possibly, consider using Memtest86+ as simply a secondary test to Memtest86, much as Windows memory diagnostic utility and Prime95 Blend or custom modes can be used for a second opinion utility.


Create a bootable USB Flash drive:

1. Download the Windows MemTest86 USB image.

2. Right click on the downloaded file and select the "Extract to Here" option. This places the USB image and imaging tool into the current folder.

3. Run the included imageUSB tool, it should already have the image file selected and you just need to choose which connected USB drive to turn into a bootable drive. Note that this will erase all data on the drive.



No memory should ever fail to pass Memtest86 when it is at the default configuration that the system sets it at when you start out or do a clear CMOS by removing the CMOS battery for five minutes.

Best method for testing memory is to first run four passes of Memtest86, all 11 tests, WITH the memory at the default configuration. This should be done BEFORE setting the memory to the XMP profile settings. The paid version has 13 tests but the free version only has tests 1-10 and test 13. So run full passes of all 11 tests. Be sure to download the latest version of Memtest86. Memtest86+ has not been updated in MANY years. It is NO-WISE as good as regular Memtest86 from Passmark software.

If there are ANY errors, at all, then the memory configuration is not stable. Bumping the DRAM voltage up slightly may resolve that OR you may need to make adjustments to the primary timings. There are very few secondary or tertiary timings that should be altered. I can tell you about those if you are trying to tighten your memory timings.

If you cannot pass Memtest86 with the memory at the XMP configuration settings then I would recommend restoring the memory to the default JEDEC SPD of 1333/2133mhz (Depending on your platform and memory type) with everything left on the auto/default configuration and running Memtest86 over again. If it completes the four full passes without error you can try again with the XMP settings but first try bumping the DRAM voltage up once again by whatever small increment the motherboard will allow you to increase it by. If it passes, great, move on to the Prime95 testing.

If it still fails, try once again bumping the voltage if you are still within the maximum allowable voltage for your memory type and test again. If it still fails, you are likely going to need more advanced help with configuring your primary timings and should return the memory to the default configuration until you can sort it out.

If the memory will not pass Memtest86 for four passes when it IS at the stock default non-XMP configuration, even after a minor bump in voltage, then there is likely something physically wrong with one or more of the memory modules and I'd recommend running Memtest on each individual module, separately, to determine which module is causing the issue. If you find a single module that is faulty you should contact the seller or the memory manufacturer and have them replace the memory as a SET. Memory comes matched for a reason as I made clear earlier and if you let them replace only one module rather than the entire set you are back to using unmatched memory which is an open door for problems with incompatible memory.

Be aware that you SHOULD run Memtest86 to test the memory at the default, non-XMP, non-custom profile settings BEFORE ever making any changes to the memory configuration so that you will know if the problem is a setting or is a physical problem with the memory.
 
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