Question PC random shut down, then cyclic on - off till it doesnt start anymore

[V12-POWER]

hey all. My pc has been behaving strange out of nowhere. It all started one day when the bios flbk light started flashing, there was no way to start it up so I unplugged the 24pin connector, put it back in and then it worked again for a few weeks.

One day it shut down randomly and it didn't want to start up again, no matter how much I spammed the power on button, neither holding it made it work. Then I went again and unplugged the 24 pin connector, put it back in and started up again, only to shut down minutes afterwards, at this point I left the pc alone for a few days (unplugged)

then I went back at it and removed the mobo, made it start up with the cpu and ram. As soon as I plugged the HDDs it started to shut down again, randomly. Then i figured it was because win7 was installed on both of my drivers (but didnt make sense to me) I created a win7 installation usb, connected ONE drive to the motherboard and installed windows 7 freshly on that drive. Once I could do that, I connected 2 other drives, one of them was a "loan" drive, to put the files to another drive, erase the original drive and then pass the files from the loan drive to mine, which was formatted, so any chance of any kind of corrupt OS was now gone.

Somehow the PC was working normally, for 2 days at most...then the same behavior started again. I've changed the CMOS battery, re-flashed the BIOS. I can start it up after switching off the PSU only, then it's a random thing till it shuts down again, when it does shut down though, it will try to start up again, then shuts off few seconds afterwards, then it starts again, shuts down again, this cycle repeats 2 or 3 times till it no longer start up, at which point you need to switch off the PSU, wait a few seconds, put the switch on and then it starts but its a time bomb until all this happens again.

Im not sure if this is PSU or mobo related or some kind of malware in my files (this one I doubt but well...)

My pc is rather old:

CPU: Inte 3770k
Mobo: ASUS P8Z77-M
RAM: Gskill sniper DDR3 4GB (x2)
PSU: deep cool DQ 650W M V2L
GPU: GTX650 Ti boost
Drives: 1 SSD from the cheap ones and 1 HDD 1TB as mass storage

The OS is installed in the SSD. Im honestly tired of this sht, i need this PC to study and program so any help would be appreciated. Thanks

 

[Aeacus]

PSU: deep cool DQ 650W M V2L

Mediocre quality PSU. But since your unit has 10 years of warranty, i suggest that you RMA it and get a replacement. That is, IF the PSU is less than 10 years old.

at which point you need to switch off the PSU, wait a few seconds, put the switch on and then it starts

Clear indicator to PSU acting up. So, either RMA what you have, or when your PSU is older than 10 years, get a brand new one, with better quality. Like Seasonic Focus/PRIME or Corsair RMx/RMi/HXi/AXi.

For 2nd opinion about your PSU, check PSU tier list,
link: https://forums.tomshardware.com/thr...er-list-rev-14-8-final-update-jul-21.3624094/

Your unit is Tier B, while what i suggested (and am personally using), would be anything from Tier A.

 

[V12-POWER]

I bought this PSU what 2 years ago at most? Piece of crap, im now using the PC and its working somehow, seems like it has bad days that it doesnt wanna work lol. I will replace the PSU though.

I saw a EVGA Supernova 750 P6 at a decent price, yet there are so many letters with their models that im not sure which is good and which is not, is this one any good?

 

[Aeacus]

I saw a EVGA Supernova 750 P6 at a decent price, yet there are so many letters with their models that im not sure which is good and which is not, is this one any good?

EVGA P6 has issues,
review: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/evga-supernova-850-p6-power-supply

Also, review, especially reputable review is the only way to know if the PSU is good or not. Then again, "decent price" = "decent PSU". I, in the other hand, would look towards good or even great PSU, rather than just decent. Heck, your DeepCool unit can be considered "decent".

If you want to go with EVGA, then get G7 instead,
review: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/evga-supernova-850-g7-power-supply-review

But if you want to get the best what money could buy, Seasonic PRIME TX is essentially only option,
review: https://www.kitguru.net/components/...asonic-prime-tx-650-titanium-psu-2020-review/

I too have two PRIME TX-650 units in use, one powers my Skylake build, another my Haswell build (full specs with pics in my sig).
Other, cheaper, but still good options include Seasonic Focus (i have Focus PX-550 powering my 3rd build: AMD), and also Corsair RMx/RMi. Oh, Super Flower Leadex series is also great option (it would be my 2nd choice, if no Seasonic would be available).

 

[ChumP]

From the Aris review of the 850W model I don't see it being that bad. Yeah, some of the internals could be better, but it offers decent performance:
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/deepcool-gamerstorm-dq-m-v2l-850w-power-supply-review

It would be worth to test with a different PSU sure, but it's the newest component he has.

I wouldn't rule out the motherboard as well, seeing how weird the behavior is. In the end power delivery to the components is done by the mobo. It's 10+ years old at this point.

 

[Aeacus]

I don't see it being that bad. Yeah, some of the internals could be better, but it offers decent performance

Decent isn't enough for dedicated GPU build with high loads. Decent is enough for iGPU office build though.

but it's the newest component he has.

Being newest doesn't mean nothing, since there are varying degree PSUs out there. That, and there is a reason why hardware has a warranty.

 

[ChumP]

Well, I wouldn't call his config something that draws a lot during a full load.

A 650ti + 3770k and the rest won't even draw over 300W.

Also, what's wrong with B tier PSUs? yeah, I wouldn't go lower, but an example in there would be the Corsair CX450,550,650, which are budget, but solid units, that I would happily recommend for a budget/midrange build. Same goes for this Deepcool which uses an LLC resonant design.

I agree that the PSU would be the first I'd look at as he can RMA that, compared to his other components.
I still stand by my previous opinion that the motherboard would be the second thing I'd look over though, if he still has issues.

Buying such an expensive unit like the Prime TX or EVGA G7 you recommended means that the PSU will essentially cost as much, if not more than his entire build. Is that worth it? I don't think so.

 

[Aeacus]

Also, what's wrong with B tier PSUs? yeah, I wouldn't go lower, but an example in there would be the Corsair CX450,550,650, which are budget, but solid units, that I would happily recommend for a budget/midrange build.

Older models of Corsair CX and CXm series (with green labels) were so bad units that they ended up as low quality units (on-par with current Corsair VS series). Corsair has since improved their CX and CXm line (with gray labels) and now, they are better but not enough to be considered as good quality PSU. Most Seasonic units are either good quality or great quality (depending on the series).

I'll take Corsair CXm 650 as an example.
While CXm series are cheap, you won't get solid build quality and all Japanese caps as you can get with many Seasonic units. Here's one in-depth review of CX650m,
link: https://www.techpowerup.com/review/corsair-cxm-series-650w/

Corsair CX650m does provide some good results but it also provides some bad results. Like hold-up time that is way lower than the ATX standard specifies it to be. CX550m has hold-up time of 10 milliseconds while the ATX standard for hold up time is a minimum of 17 milliseconds. For comparison, Seasonic PRIME 650 80+ Titanium (one of the best, if not the best 650W PSU money can buy) has hold-up time of mythical 35.3 milliseconds.

And it's just not the hold-up time, there are other, more apparent things that doesn't make it good quality unit. One of them is the very noisy fan used in it. At minimum, you're looking easy 40 dB(A) from the fan, which can rise up to 51 dB(A). It's even worse than having 140mm Noctua industrial 3000 RPM fan in your PC running at max speeds (Noctua fan goes as loud as 41.3 dB(A) ).
Seasonic PRIME 650 80+ Titanium is one of the quietest PSU out there, averaging at 18.94 dB(A).
PRIME review: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/seasonic-prime-titanium-650w-psu,4690.html

Since CX650m has nice list of good things and also bad things, it's a mediocre quality unit. If there were more bad than good (including price) it would be a bad unit and vice-versa.

I, personally, wouldn't use it. While it can be used just fine for an office PC that never sees any high loads and also where the PSU noise isn't that important. But for home use in a gaming PC, where PC longevity and noise are important factors, i'd use and also suggest using better quality and more silent PSU.

Buying such an expensive unit like the Prime TX or EVGA G7 you recommended means that the PSU will essentially cost as much, if not more than his entire build. Is that worth it? I don't think so.

Different persons have different standards (some have higher standards while others have lower standards) and it's up to every person to decide how good of a build quality components are safe to use in their PC. But keep in mind that PSU is the most important component inside the PC since it powers everything.

Since i care a lot about all my PCs, i won't put a mediocre quality unit into my PC that fails to meet ATX PSU standards set in place for all OEMs to follow, so that the PSUs are safe to use and doesn't damage other components. In fact, i've gone above and beyond regarding PSUs in my PCs.
Some may call me nuts that i payed €206.80 for a PSU that sits in my Skylake build (Seasonic SSR-650TD) and my latest PSU purchase for Haswell build costed €205.50 (Seasonic SSR-650TR), while i would've been safe with a PSU that costs €80.50 (Seasonic GX-550). While that can be true and i could've saved a lot of money, i feel safe and comfortable that my two main PCs are powered by the best offered by Seasonic. Only for my 3rd PC, old AMD build, i slightly reduced my PSU quality standard and bought a PSU that costed €101.50 (Seasonic PX-550). Still, all 3 of my PSUs are Tier A quality.

I won't suggest expensive PSUs in builds when the budget is way restricted. But i still suggest getting a PSU that at least meets all the ATX PSU standards (like Seasonic Focus-GM-650).

you recommended

Do note that all the PC components that i've shared here in this topic (and elsewhere in the forums) are suggestions and not recommendations.

Suggestion, as such, is an idea that i present for OP's consideration while backed up with additional data (specs page, reviews, comparisons etc) where OP has easy way to access for additional information. With suggestion, it's up to OP to decide which part to go with.
Recommendation, in the other hand, is a statement where i basically say that:"this is the one", without proving why i want OP to go with this part and where OP only have my word to rely on.

If i do recommend something (happens very rarely), i also state that it's a recommendation.

 

[ChumP]

I'm specifically talking about the CX650, 550(not the m-modular versions, I mistakenly specified the 450m in my previous comment) models, the grey label ones, being the newest iteration.

The CXm(grey label models) are using a double forward topology(that's why they are in tier C not B like the CX) on the primary side, while the CX(grey label) uses a LLC resonant converter on the primary side and DC-DC for the 5v an 3.3v rails. The later is indeed the much better unit, that was the one I was referring to and using for my secondary build(using the HX1000i for my main rig, built like a tank) ... same topology as his Deepcool and the majority of high end units.

Wouldn't even put the green label versions in the discussion(do they even sell anymore outside of the used market?), which uses a group regulated design.

Anyways I've taken the discussion too much out of context, let's see if the OP solves his issue by RMA-ing the PSU and we'll pick up from there.

 

[Aeacus]

The CXm(grey label models) are using a double forward topology(that's why they are in tier C not B like the CX) on the primary side, while the CX(grey label) uses a LLC resonant converter on the primary side and DC-DC for the 5v an 3.3v rails. The later is indeed the much better unit, that was the one I was referring to

Corsair CX650 has even less hold-up time than it's CX650m counterpart, at 8.3 ms.
Review: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/corsair-cx650-power-supply-review

No matter how i'd look at CX650, i can not tell it to be "much better than CXm". Heck, it's actually worse. On-top of that, CX650 is fully wired as well.

which uses a group regulated design.

Group-regulated design, while outdated, isn't actually as bad as many say it to be. In fact, group-regulated PSU, when built well, can easily outperform newer, DC-DC designs.
For that, i'll bring forth the best group-regulated PSU ever made: Seasonic S12II-520,
review: https://web.archive.org/web/2015010...odules.php?name=NDReviews&file=print&reid=185

Can't argue with the reputable review (jonnyguru).

I used S12II-520 for several years until i retired it and replaced it with Focus PX-550. And while at current moment, suggesting S12II-520 is pushing it (since platform is from 2009) it still remains as a staple, what group-regulated PSU can be, when built well. Also, S12II-520 is tried, tested and proven to be reliable PSU. Far outlasting the 3 years warranty it initially came with. S12II-520 reliability was the one that earned Seasonic the reputation of Seasonic PSU's being reliable and easily outlasting the warranty period. I've seen builds with S12II-520 that are 5 or even 8 years old, while still running strong.

Specs wise, for example vs CX650; S12II-520 ripple at +12V is under 25mV, while CX650, with modern design and being far newer (released in 2020), has +12V ripple at 48.58mV. Essentially double of what S12II-520 had.

The bar has been set by S12II-520 back in 2009. Any modern DC-DC PSU that can't to better than group-regulated S12II-520 did back in 2009, is not worth the consideration. That includes, but isn't limited to, the entire Corsair CX and CXm lineup.

 

[ChumP]

Seasonic units have always had low ripple from the plethora of reviews I've seen.
Speaking of that, the Deepcool unit does amazingly well in that department. Less than 20mV on every single rail.

On the other hand group regulated units have one major flaw: +12V regulation during crossloads... with new CPUs having really low power states it's really pushing it as you said.

+12V load regulation on the CX(0.6%) is a lot better than the CXm(1.2%) and that's a really important factor. Having a rock solid +12V rail is, I'd say, one of the most important factors when getting a PSU, as every major component draws power from that.

 

[Aeacus]

+12V load regulation isn't the only mayor factor when it comes to PSUs. In a way, ripple is even more important, since;

Ripple represent the AC fluctuations (periodic) and noise (random) found in the PSU's DC rails. This phenomenon significantly decreases the capacitors' lifespan because it causes them to run hotter. A 10-degree Celsius increase can cut into a cap's useful life by 50%. Ripple also plays an important role in overall system stability, especially when overclocking is involved.

Because, what good is a PSU, if it isn't reliable and doesn't last? Especially when it causes system to be unstable.

Many gamers like to OC their GPU for extra FPS and some even OC their CPU. But when PSU isn't up to par due to high ripple, then it matters little how good of a load regulation it has.

Also, hold-up time also matters, since;

Hold-up time represents the duration for which a PSU can maintain stable output as defined by the ATX specification without input power. This is very important when the quality of your electricity varies, and there are short drops in the supply (dips or brownouts).

All-in-all, good quality PSU has everything at the spec of ATX PSU standard (which is actually too lenient).
Great quality PSU far surpasses what ATX PSU standard specifies to be.
While Corsair CX and CXm units fail even to match ATX PSU standard.

Regarding OP's DeepCool unit (from TH review);

The DeepCool GamerStorm DQ-M V2L 850W uses a new platform from Channel Well Technology (CWT), which has the codename GPX. In essence, GPX platform is a downgraded GPU design (which we have seen in the Bitfenix Whisper line and the older DeepCool GamerStorm models). Its goal is to offer high enough performance at a lower price, meaning that it doesn't use the same high-quality parts that the GPU design utilizes. With higher quality FETs and a stronger boost diode, the GamerStorm DQ-M V2L 850W could be included in our Best Power Supplies article, but performance alone isn't enough.

The design needs to be reliable enough to last for years to come, even under tough operating conditions, and it should also retain its good performance over time, because even PSUs age.

Speaking of FETs, we were not pleased, at all, to see lower grade FETs made by off-brand Chinese manufacturers in this unit. CWT might use a superior full-bridge topology in this platform, instead of the half-bridge that the higher-grade GPU design uses. Still, it only did so to lower the production cost since this topology allowed for lower and much more affordable FETs. It is strange to see such an extended warranty period, reaching ten-years, in a product that doesn't use quality FETs. The aggressive fan speed profile might boost reliability, but it won't help in the long run if you push hard the PSU on a daily basis.

With higher quality FETs and a stronger boost diode in the APFC converter, this power supply would be equally good, if not better, than its competitors. This is not the case, though, and despite the ten-year warranty that DeepCool provides, we are not sure if it will manage to outlive it, especially if you are not gentle with it.
On top of that, the fan speed profile is aggressive, so under high loads and increased operating temperatures, the PSU will make its presence felt. This product could be so much better if it used the proper parts. As it is, the majority of competing offerings, including the Corsair RMx, Seasonic Focus, and XPG Core Reactor, are better choices.

I guess the design isn't reliable enough. OP's unit started to throw a fit after 2 years in service.

 

[ChumP]

Totally agreeing with your point here, everything matters ripple, load regulation, hold up time, transients and the list goes on.

While, yes, budget oriented units have their weaknesses, because you gotta cheap out somewhere if you want to lower the cost, there are some good options out there, but you gotta be vigilant.

While the CX series is not performing great in some areas, I'm still positive on its reliability. Don't want to generalise my situation, but the CX650 I have is closing on 7 years really soon, so what's that? almost 2 years over its warranty. Currently running an RX 6800 that's UV/OCed and a 5800x3d (with some PBO2 tuning). Unit is dead silent in any situation and rock solid in terms of stability.

Now, jonnyguru actually backed the CX line up as well (I know he works for Corsair, but he has the actual numbers and I don't know him as a shill for them), while there were many pure hate comments(probably from the previous iterations), failure rate was extremely low. Even though it seemed that they had a bit more failures, they were also selling a whole bunch more units than everyone, so there's that.

Another point I wanted to touch on is reliability is not always directly linked with performance. For example the PC Power and Cooling Turbocool (reviewed by jg as I remember) was an absolute tank of a unit. On the downside though performance was not that great, under 80% efficiency, and not the best ripple and load regulation numbers. But you can't argue with the quality of components it was made of. To withstand so much additional heat because of how inefficient the unit was admirable. Now it's ancient, but I digress.

I'll say that my HXi(main rig) is not the best performing unit in its range, sure, but I dare you to find one that actually failed.

To critique Seasonic a bit here too, remember the pre 2018 Focus versions? OPP set to the moon on one of the minor rails, can't remember if it was the 5 or 3.3v + they were commonly tripping OCP on higher end cards(which were sipping power back then) due to poor transient response. Those WERE NOT budget units.
So they can slip too as every other manufacturer.

That's why we trust reviews, not brands, I think we completely agree on that.

Fully with you that if going pedal to the metal with your build, you'll never go for a budget unit, even if you do OC or not. Even in a mid to high-end ones I'll still aim for the best, but I have no problem going with something more budget if I know the internals and I'm limited in terms of how much I can spend. In the end no matter the build, you need to be way more selective when choosing the PSU in particular.

Another thing that we desperately need is more competent PSU reviewers as Aris is , sadly, the only one standing from the old guard.

We went on the biggest ever tangent here, but I love talking PSUs.

 

[V12-POWER]

yo, the PC works somewhat still, I just need to unplug it after shutdown, otherwise it will not start up again.

the new PSU will take some time to arrive, third world country problems, but I will replace it and report back

 

[Aeacus]

I'll say that my HXi(main rig) is not the best performing unit in its range, sure, but I dare you to find one that actually failed.

You need to be careful for what you wish for.

(Some magic 🥷 and: )
Instance #1: https://forum.corsair.com/forums/topic/162552-possible-hx1200i-problems/
Instance #2: https://forum.corsair.com/forums/topic/161447-possible-dead-hx750i-psu/
(Google-Fu master has talked.)

To critique Seasonic a bit here too, remember the pre 2018 Focus versions? OPP set to the moon on one of the minor rails, can't remember if it was the 5 or 3.3v + they were commonly tripping OCP on higher end cards(which were sipping power back then) due to poor transient response. Those WERE NOT budget units.
So they can slip too as every other manufacturer.

Yes, none of the PSU brand/OEM is untouchable. They all have produced a bad unit/series at some point of time.

I know the fiasco Seasonic had with OPP and early Focus units + RTX 30-series GPUs. Seasonic was sensible with this and came out with public announcement. After which, Seasonic fixed the issue with in-cable caps.

But do you know the fiasco Corsair had with their AXi lineup, that they tried to cover up?
Saga written here: https://www.legitreviews.com/intel-x99-motherboard-goes-up-in-smoke-for-reasons-unknown_150008
And from that, i'd like to point out:

Update 9/13/2014 – Corsair along with ASUS tested the pair of AX860i power supply that Legit Reviews was using on the test bench at the time of failure on Friday the 12th. Both power supplies passed the initial Chroma test passes, but we learned something that we previously did not know. When the Corsair AXi series of power supplies came out in 2012 they featured a single rail design. Corsair switched to a multiple rail design for the power supply series in 2013 (previously unknown to us). This is obviously a significant difference in the design of the power supply. We also learned that the earlier single rail power supplies did not have OCP enabled by default.

This is not the 1st time Corsair replacing the platform of the PSU, even in mid-production, with 0 word to the public. - These shady dealings on Corsair's part, is one of the reasons why one should have reservations with Corsair units. Heck, even the latest iteration of CX series has it's shady dealings. Namely, some of the CX units are produced by Great Wall while the rest are made by CWT. And normal person can not tell a diff, which OEM made CX PSU they are getting when buying one.

Then there's of course Silverstone, who has cemented itself into the annals of history, by producing the worst 80+ Titanium unit ever made: Strider Titanium series,
review 1: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/silverstone-strider-titanium-st1500-ti-psu,5324.html
review 2: https://www.kitguru.net/components/...ilverstone-strider-titanium-1100w-psu-review/

Another notable entry in the annals of history is MSI and their Turbostream 600W PSU. Namely, MSI Turbostream 600W PSU is unique by the warranty it had, whereby warranty started to count from the date when the PSU was manufactured, and not from the date end user bought the PSU. On top of that, warranty period was obscure 16 months (1 year and 4 months).
Review: https://hardwaresecrets.com/msi-turbostream-600-w-power-supply-review/
Of course, MSI has now came out with their new lineup of PSUs, MPG GF series, while trying their best to sweep the Turbostream under the rug, by claiming:"MSI unveils it's very first and very own power supply products: the MPG GF Series.";
newsletter: https://www.msi.com/news/detail/MSI...sThatSupporttheLatestNVIDIAGraphicsCards13194
Yeah, that isn't true. Turbostream was 1st, MPG GF is 2nd.

And there are many other PSU brands/OEMs with screw-ups as well, but i'll stop here.

Another thing that we desperately need is more competent PSU reviewers as Aris is , sadly, the only one standing from the old guard.

There is some aftergrowth, like Steve Burke (GamersNexus) and even Linus Sebastian (LTT/LMG).
I have confidence in Steve Burke, since he is in-depth and methodical with his data. Also, Steve has visited Jon Gerow on many times, to learn more about PSUs and how to test/review them.
But i don't have that much confidence in Linus. Sure, Linus has money to buy the PSU test equipment (saw a video where he showcased it) but their methodology has issues. Few months back, Steve called out Linus on data accuracy and there was quite a fiasco with it. Since then LTT/LMG has reworked their internal issues, but i'm not quite sold on the trustworthiness of Linus'es content.

We went on the biggest ever tangent here, but I love talking PSUs.

Then you should join us in here,
topic: https://forums.tomshardware.com/thr...pply-discussion-thread-toms-hardware.3212332/

That topic is proper place where to discuss PSUs.

To @V12-POWER :
I'm sorry that we "loaned" your topic for our discussion of PSUs , but i too like discussing PSUs. (More in-depth info about PSUs won't hurt, right? )

but I will replace it and report back

Do let us know, so we can continue troubleshooting if issue(s) remain.