PCI Raid Cards on 32 bit PCI

FLINTSTONE

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I have recently ordered an LSI Logic MegaRAID SATA 150-4 (PCI RAID
Card). The card does use true hardware RAID so the computer will
recognise it as a simple SCSI device.

I am planning on running 3 WD Raptor (36.7G, 10000 rpm, 5.2 ms seek,
2.99 ms Latency, 8MB Cache, SATA 150) drives as RAID0 ... with regular
backups

The problem is that I have received contradictory information. The card
can run on either 32 or 64 bit PCI mode. I have been told two different
things:

1) If you run a RAID card on a 32 bit 33Mhz PCI port the maximum
theoretical speed would be 132Mb (32-bit/8*33Mhz)

2) The max. theoretical speed does not apply to true hardware RAID
cards as they would run over the SCSI bus (recognised as standard SCSI
disks).

Which of these comments are actually true?

Also,

Is it worth running 3 Raptors over PCI?

Mobo: NF7-S
CPU: Athlon 3200+
 

FLINTSTONE

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Well, 64 bit PCI cards are backwards compatible (This card has a jumper
you set to choose 32 / 64 bit).

These cards are definately recognised by the computer as SCSI cards so
from what you say SCSI cards are still limited by the 132M transfer
rate?
 

FLINTSTONE

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Okay, maybe I am very innocent but in theory SATA can transfer data at
150M per second ... so if a Raptor can peak at 150M per second would
one drive not overload the PCI bus?

If that is the case then what is the point of using PCI raid cards?

If the limitation is so serious I feel like I have wasted my money ...
maybe I would need to change my mobo. Is there a mobo that has 64 bit
PCI and supports an Athlon 3200+?

If the card is designed for 64 bit PCI then would it also work under
PCI Express (PCIe)? Would the limitation then be removed? Is there a
mobo that has PCIe and supports an Athlon 3200+?

Am I really that much of a stupid git for thinking that this setup
would increase performance?
 

FLINTSTONE

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You say that if a card is designed for 64 bit PCI then would it also
work under PCI Express (PCIe) ... are you sure about this as it looks
to me as if they are deaper in the motherboard, are they realy backward
compatible?
 

FLINTSTONE

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Can I use a PCI card in a PCI Express card slot? No the electrical and
physical interfaces are completely different.

Even so, PCIe is compatible with PCI.

I am not quite sure what they mean by compatible as a standard PCI card
does not fit in a PCIe slot ... maybe it just means you can use both
types of card on the same computer.

I do need RAID as I use a lot of Graphics and edit videos etc.

Just replacing the RAID array with a 74G Raptor would not provide the
same performance increase as a 3 x 36.7G Raptor RAID0 array.

So it looks like I need to find a mobo that has 64 bit PCI.

Hmmm ... they must exist but I can not find any apart from Server mobos.
 

FLINTSTONE

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Yep, I am looking at that one, the Asus A7M266-D or the MSI K7D. They
all have 64 bit PCI only have AGP 4x (I would prefer 8x)

Life is never simple :eek:(
 

FLINTSTONE

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Yes, I got the impression I would need a new mobo ... I may as well use
the RAID card I have splashed out on but do not want to spend too much.

Yes, I would be using it for video editing, 3d design and for special
effects so it really does need to be a powerhouse. It will be running
XP Pro & Linux, hence the need for the decent True Hardware RAID setup.

I did not realise that the 74GB Raptor was faster but I have already
bought the smaller ones, I have also already paid for the RAID card.

The mobo I would want ideally has AGP 8x (For video editing), 64 bit
PCI (For the Hardware RAID Card) and support for Athlon CPUs ... idealy
with an ATX form factor :eek:)

I have been looking around but have not managed to find anything that
fits the bill yet.
 

FLINTSTONE

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As far as I know there is no reason you can not use RAID 0 to stripe
accross 3 disks. You can even use RAID 0 accross 1 disk but that is
probably pointless.
 

FLINTSTONE

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Maybe I will just keep the RAID card as a spare and gradually build a
server, that would solve the problem. I just need to find a place to
buy cheap servers with AGP 8x (For video editing), 64 bit PCI (For the
Hardware RAID Card) and support for Athlon CPUs.

And also lots of cash :eek:)
 
G

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On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:52:18 -0700, Flintstone wrote:

> I have recently ordered an LSI Logic MegaRAID SATA 150-4 (PCI RAID
> Card). The card does use true hardware RAID so the computer will
> recognise it as a simple SCSI device.
>
> The problem is that I have received contradictory information. The card
> can run on either 32 or 64 bit PCI mode. I have been told two different
> things:
>
> 1) If you run a RAID card on a 32 bit 33Mhz PCI port the maximum
> theoretical speed would be 132Mb (32-bit/8*33Mhz)
>
Let me know after you get the board, but from what I can tell it requires
a 64bit 66Mhz PCI slot. I don't think the 64 bit cards will work in 32bit
33Mhz slots, but I've never had a 64 bit pci card.:)

> 2) The max. theoretical speed does not apply to true hardware RAID
> cards as they would run over the SCSI bus (recognised as standard SCSI
> disks).
>
> Which of these comments are actually true?
>
If it's plugged into a slot, the slot will control the max speed, not the
card.

--
Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php
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FLINTSTONE

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Yes, in the future I will probably upgrade to one of tyans mobos and
double up on CPUs.

>From what I understand the drives only reach the higher speeds when
they are writing from the cache. Most of the time during normal use I
probably would not reach 133M per second (How long does it take to copy
a 1GB file?

I think I will experiment and see how the theory goes compared to the
practice.

All this has kind of introduced me to the world of dual core dual
processor, PCs and I know I will not be able to keep my hands off for
long (I currently run a number of websites with 1&1 but would much
prefer to run a server or 2 myself).

The only thing that stops me at the moment is the fact that these
technologies PCIe and also 64 bit PCI are surely coming to the high
performance desktop market soon (maybe).

Thanks for the help.
 
G

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In article <1119518556.295536.83310@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Flintstone says...
> Well, 64 bit PCI cards are backwards compatible (This card has a jumper
> you set to choose 32 / 64 bit).
>
> These cards are definately recognised by the computer as SCSI cards so
> from what you say SCSI cards are still limited by the 132M transfer
> rate?
>
Yes. PCI 1x is 133MBit. BUT, and it is a big but, that 133MBit is
SHARED amongst all the devices using the PCI bus so if you're using
USB, a PCI ADSL modem, a PCI TV card or whatever at the same time the
drive is transferring data, the speed will drop.

In addition to that, the speeds shown int he drive specs are maximum
transfer rates and it's usual to only get around 60-80% of that unless
you're constantly transferring large files so you'll still benefit from
RAID.

--
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)
 
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In article <1119522899.591310.101010@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Flintstone says...
> Okay, maybe I am very innocent but in theory SATA can transfer data at
> 150M per second ... so if a Raptor can peak at 150M per second would
> one drive not overload the PCI bus?
>
Correct.

> If that is the case then what is the point of using PCI raid cards?
>
Because PCI 16x gives more bandwidth.

> If the limitation is so serious I feel like I have wasted my money ...
> maybe I would need to change my mobo. Is there a mobo that has 64 bit
> PCI and supports an Athlon 3200+?

No.

> If the card is designed for 64 bit PCI then would it also work under
> PCI Express (PCIe)? Would the limitation then be removed? Is there a
> mobo that has PCIe and supports an Athlon 3200+?
>
That's what the 16x slots on a PCIe board are designed to do.

> Am I really that much of a stupid git for thinking that this setup
> would increase performance?

Well....
Yes RAID does give a performance advantage but ultimately in the end
you pay twice as much for less than twice the speed BUT only half the
reliability. For the average user, there is simply no need for RAID.
People get RAID because they've been told that its better for them
without understanding the reasons why.

IMO a better way would be to stick OS and Apps on a 74GB WD Raptor to
give you the speed and get a normal large capacity (2-300GB) IDE/SATA
drive to store data on.


--
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)
 
G

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In article <1119528004.598205.27900@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Flintstone says...
> You say that if a card is designed for 64 bit PCI then would it also
> work under PCI Express (PCIe)

No. What I'm saying is PCIe was introduced to overcome the bottleneck
of PCI. The two are not the same.



--
Conor

-You wanted an argument? Oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room
K5, just along the corridor. Stupid git. (Monty Python)
 
G

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On 22 Jun 2005 23:52:18 -0700, "Flintstone"
<ratcliffe_mike@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I have recently ordered an LSI Logic MegaRAID SATA 150-4 (PCI RAID
>Card). The card does use true hardware RAID so the computer will
>recognise it as a simple SCSI device.
>
>I am planning on running 3 WD Raptor (36.7G, 10000 rpm, 5.2 ms seek,
>2.99 ms Latency, 8MB Cache, SATA 150) drives as RAID0 ... with regular
>backups
>
>The problem is that I have received contradictory information. The card
>can run on either 32 or 64 bit PCI mode. I have been told two different
>things:
>
>1) If you run a RAID card on a 32 bit 33Mhz PCI port the maximum
>theoretical speed would be 132Mb (32-bit/8*33Mhz)
>
>2) The max. theoretical speed does not apply to true hardware RAID
>cards as they would run over the SCSI bus (recognised as standard SCSI
>disks).
>
>Which of these comments are actually true?
>
>Also,
>
>Is it worth running 3 Raptors over PCI?
>
>Mobo: NF7-S
>CPU: Athlon 3200+

the pci slot you run the card in determines how fast it will run.
the standard 32bit 33mhz bus has one quarter the bandwidth of a 64bit
66mhz slot.
i used to use 3ware raid plus 2 7200rpm pata hdds on a 2cpu machine
with 64bit pci, when i had problems with that mobo, i moved the raid
setup to an nf2 board to recover my data i found the data transfer
rate to be pitiful compared to the original setup, even though the nf2
had faster cpu & ram.
in short, it matters not how fast the raid card will operate as the
bottleneck is the pci bus the data has to traverse to be used.

dr ratt

------------------------------------------------------------
gary: so there's no chance we can be together?
lisa: only if you promise me you'll never die.
gary: you know i can't promise that.
lisa: if you could do that, i'd make love to you, right now.
gary: i promise. i will never die.
 
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On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:08:33 +0100, Conor <conor.turton@gmail.com>
wrote:

snippy snip
>
>Well....
>Yes RAID does give a performance advantage but ultimately in the end
>you pay twice as much for less than twice the speed BUT only half the
>reliability. For the average user, there is simply no need for RAID.
>People get RAID because they've been told that its better for them
>without understanding the reasons why.
>
>IMO a better way would be to stick OS and Apps on a 74GB WD Raptor to
>give you the speed and get a normal large capacity (2-300GB) IDE/SATA
>drive to store data on.

excellent advice.

dr ratt

------------------------------------------------------------
gary: so there's no chance we can be together?
lisa: only if you promise me you'll never die.
gary: you know i can't promise that.
lisa: if you could do that, i'd make love to you, right now.
gary: i promise. i will never die.
 
G

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On 23 Jun 2005 05:25:23 -0700, "Flintstone"
<ratcliffe_mike@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Can I use a PCI card in a PCI Express card slot? No the electrical and
>physical interfaces are completely different.
>
>Even so, PCIe is compatible with PCI.
>
>I am not quite sure what they mean by compatible as a standard PCI card
>does not fit in a PCIe slot ... maybe it just means you can use both
>types of card on the same computer.
>
>I do need RAID as I use a lot of Graphics and edit videos etc.
>
>Just replacing the RAID array with a 74G Raptor would not provide the
>same performance increase as a 3 x 36.7G Raptor RAID0 array.
>
>So it looks like I need to find a mobo that has 64 bit PCI.
>
>Hmmm ... they must exist but I can not find any apart from Server mobos.

you can still pick up a tyan s2466 workstation board for around £170.
this has a couple of 64bit slots & 4 32bit.
it will run a single xp or 2 mp cpus. the only small niggle is the
need for ecc ram.

dr ratt

------------------------------------------------------------
gary: so there's no chance we can be together?
lisa: only if you promise me you'll never die.
gary: you know i can't promise that.
lisa: if you could do that, i'd make love to you, right now.
gary: i promise. i will never die.
 
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"Flintstone" <ratcliffe_mike@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1119509538.487352.23320@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I have recently ordered an LSI Logic MegaRAID SATA 150-4 (PCI RAID
> Card). The card does use true hardware RAID so the computer will
> recognise it as a simple SCSI device.
>
> I am planning on running 3 WD Raptor (36.7G, 10000 rpm, 5.2 ms seek,
> 2.99 ms Latency, 8MB Cache, SATA 150) drives as RAID0 ... with regular
> backups
>
> The problem is that I have received contradictory information. The card
> can run on either 32 or 64 bit PCI mode. I have been told two different
> things:
>
> 1) If you run a RAID card on a 32 bit 33Mhz PCI port the maximum
> theoretical speed would be 132Mb (32-bit/8*33Mhz)
>
> 2) The max. theoretical speed does not apply to true hardware RAID
> cards as they would run over the SCSI bus (recognised as standard SCSI
> disks).
>
> Which of these comments are actually true?
>
> Also,
>
> Is it worth running 3 Raptors over PCI?
>
> Mobo: NF7-S
> CPU: Athlon 3200+
>

Let me add to this discussion.

You state:
>
> I am planning on running 3 WD Raptor (36.7G, 10000 rpm, 5.2 ms seek,
> 2.99 ms Latency, 8MB Cache, SATA 150) drives as RAID0 ... with regular
> backups
>
I presume that you mean that you're gonna use one of the Raptors as your O/S
disk and the other two in a RAID 0. Surely you didn't think you could use
all 3 in a RAID 0 as you stated in the above quote. The very definition of
RAID 0 implies pairs of disks, never an odd number.
 
G

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"Flintstone" <ratcliffe_mike@hotmail.com> wrote in message ...
> I have recently ordered an LSI Logic MegaRAID SATA
>? 150-4 (PCI RAID Card). The card does use true hardware
> RAID so the computer will recognise it as a simple SCSI device.
>
> I am planning on running 3 WD Raptor (36.7G, 10000 rpm, 5.2 ms
> seek, 2.99 ms Latency, 8MB Cache, SATA 150) drives as
> RAID0 ... with regular backups

Lol. Silly question but why do you need such a fast HD subsystem? Are you
going to be running a webserver or similar?

> 1) If you run a RAID card on a 32 bit 33Mhz PCI port the
> maximum theoretical speed would be 132Mb (32-bit/8*33Mhz)

Almost. As has already been said the maximum data rate of a 32 bit 33MHz PCI
bus is 133MB/sec - but this is divided between *every* device on the bus, so
any other PCI devices will leach away this capacity. Given latency and
contention issues, the maximum bandwidth available to your RAID controller
will be well short of 133MB/sec.

> 2) The max. theoretical speed does not apply to true hardware
> RAID cards as they would run over the SCSI bus (recognised
> as standard SCSI disks).
>
> Which of these comments are actually true?

Neither. Comment 1 is incomplete and comment 2 is basically meaningless
bullshit. If you have a RAID 0 array on your controller, you have to get the
data between it and your processor. The only way to do that is to pass it
through the PCI bus, at which the bus bandwidth limitations covered by
comment 1 come into play.

> Is it worth running 3 Raptors over PCI?

No, it's a complete waste of money given your current motherboard. The 36GB
Raptors aren't good buys nowadays anyway, the twin platter 74GB drives are
faster, obviously more spacious, better featured and don't cost a huge
amount more.

Without you telling us what use you intend to put this configuration to it's
difficult to suggest an optimal configuration, but the suggestion you've
already had about using a 74GB Raptor plus a larger storage/backup drive is
about as good as you'll get for general mucking about. Either way if you
want to get round the PCI bus bottleneck, you want to use the NF7's
southbridge integrated SATA controller.

If you do genuinely have a need for the sort of disk i/o bandwidth that your
original suggested configuration would have brought (i.e. web/multi-user
fileserving/etc.), you will need a motherboard with a host-bus interface
much faster than conventional PCI.
--


Richard Hopkins
Cardiff, Wales, United Kingdom
(replace nospam with pipex in reply address)

The UK's leading technology reseller www.dabs.com
 
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On 23 Jun 2005 06:53:52 -0700, "Flintstone"
<ratcliffe_mike@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Yep, I am looking at that one, the Asus A7M266-D or the MSI K7D. They
>all have 64 bit PCI only have AGP 4x (I would prefer 8x)
>
>Life is never simple :eek:(

the mp & mpx chipsets used on athlon mp boards did not support 8x agp,
you'd have to move to opterons & nforce3 for that.
but, if you're moving to opterons the pcie s2895 with nforce 4 pro
chipset is the elephant's cock. it also is available with & without
scsi.
btw, i used a 9700pro on my tyan 4x agp with xp-m2400 cpus & pc2100ram
and 3dmark01 & 03 scores were about 2% lower than the same card & 1
xp-m2400 on my nf2 8x agp board with pc3200 ram.
out of the 3 boards you mention, i'd recommend the tyan. stable as a
triangle once setup correctly and a 3 year warranty.

dr ratt

------------------------------------------------------------
gary: so there's no chance we can be together?
lisa: only if you promise me you'll never die.
gary: you know i can't promise that.
lisa: if you could do that, i'd make love to you, right now.
gary: i promise. i will never die.
 
G

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On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:54:29 GMT, "Colon Terminus"
<Colon_Terminus@hotmail.com> wrote:


>
>Let me add to this discussion.
>
>You state:
>>
>> I am planning on running 3 WD Raptor (36.7G, 10000 rpm, 5.2 ms seek,
>> 2.99 ms Latency, 8MB Cache, SATA 150) drives as RAID0 ... with regular
>> backups
>>
>I presume that you mean that you're gonna use one of the Raptors as your O/S
>disk and the other two in a RAID 0. Surely you didn't think you could use
>all 3 in a RAID 0 as you stated in the above quote. The very definition of
>RAID 0 implies pairs of disks, never an odd number.
>
>
>

incorrect. i have seen many scsi raid 0 [and raid 5 for that matter]
setups with odd numbers of discs, raid 1, on the other hand, requires
even numbers as half the discs mirror the others.
i see no reason why the same would not hold true on ide.

dr ratt

------------------------------------------------------------
gary: so there's no chance we can be together?
lisa: only if you promise me you'll never die.
gary: you know i can't promise that.
lisa: if you could do that, i'd make love to you, right now.
gary: i promise. i will never die.
 
G

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On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 03:34:59 -0700, Flintstone wrote:

> If the limitation is so serious I feel like I have wasted my money ...
> maybe I would need to change my mobo. Is there a mobo that has 64 bit
> PCI and supports an Athlon 3200+?
>
Tyan Tiger and Thunder series both support 64bit pci. I don't know of a
single processor board that does, but there could be.

http://www.tyan.com/products/html/archive.html

--
Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
My server http://wesnewell.no-ip.com/cpu.php
Verizon server http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm
 

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"Flintstone" <ratcliffe_mike@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1119549523.459978.64240@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
> Yes, in the future I will probably upgrade to one of
> tyans mobos and double up on CPUs.
>
> > From what I understand the drives only reach the higher
> > speeds when
> they are writing from the cache. Most of the time during
> normal use I probably would not reach 133M per second
> (How long does it take to copy a 1GB file?
>
> I think I will experiment and see how the theory goes
> compared to the practice.
>
> All this has kind of introduced me to the world of dual
> core dual processor, PCs and I know I will not be able to
> keep my hands off for long (I currently run a number of
> websites with 1&1 but would much prefer to run a server
> or 2 myself).
>
> The only thing that stops me at the moment is the fact
> that these technologies PCIe and also 64 bit PCI are
> surely coming to the high performance desktop market soon
> (maybe).
>
> Thanks for the help.

basicly you made a booboo by not researching what to buy before you bought
it
it happens....

even with the pci 132meg sec limit, thats dam fast anyway, ok you have a low
ceiling, you will find 64bit pci will improve it, but not by miles

nah 64bit pci was for servers, it never came to desktops (see tyan, they
make high end workstion/server boards though)
pci express is coming in now (about time too)

get it up and running in normal 32bit pci and run some benchmarks against
it, then post back here methinks
 
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"Flintstone" <ratcliffe_mike@hotmail.com> wrote in message...
> The only thing that stops me at the moment is the fact that these
> technologies PCIe and also 64 bit PCI are surely coming to the high
> performance desktop market soon (maybe).

Eh? PCIe is already available on performance (and indeed budget) desktop
motherboards, and has been for some time, while the high performance PCI
variants aren't coming and were never going to.
--


Richard Hopkins
Cardiff, Wales, United Kingdom
(replace nospam with pipex in reply address)

The UK's leading technology reseller www.dabs.com
 
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Colon Terminus wrote:
>
> My error then. I'm drawiing on memory from the original white paper
> describing the various RAID technologies. I must've misread the paper or
> misinterpreted what I read.

This site explains RAID fairly well:

http://www.acnc.com/04_00.html
 

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