Perform: Weapons Display

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This was mentioned in Unearthed Arcana, and unless I'm missing
something, it seems overpowered. Why would a bard, or a character
interested in performing, ever choose anything else?

In addition to the usual ranks+ChaBonus, you get a bonus equal to half
your BAB, as well as various +2 bonii for different feats like Combat
Expertise and Weapon Focus. I have a character right now with 4 ranks
in Perform: Weapons Display, who has actually got a +13 bonus to his
roll at 8th level (+2 for Cha, +3 for his BAB, and two +2 bonuses for
combat feats).

Is there some reason any character would take anything other than
Weapons Display for a Performance type? How could this option be
reigned in? Just treat it like any other type of Performance (maybe
allowing a +2 bonus for Masterwork weapons used in the performance)?

Thanks,

- Ron ^*^
 
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Werebat wrote:
>
> This was mentioned in Unearthed Arcana,

Is it? I took a quick look, but couldn't find it.
It's in Complete Warrior, though.

> and unless I'm missing
> something, it seems overpowered. Why would a bard, or a character
> interested in performing, ever choose anything else?

Because you can't use it to perform bardic music?

-Bluto
 
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Senator Blutarsky wrote:
> Werebat wrote:
>
>>This was mentioned in Unearthed Arcana,
>
>
> Is it? I took a quick look, but couldn't find it.
> It's in Complete Warrior, though.

Whoops, my bad. It is in Complete Warrior.


>>and unless I'm missing
>>something, it seems overpowered. Why would a bard, or a character
>>interested in performing, ever choose anything else?
>
>
> Because you can't use it to perform bardic music?

Can't you?

And even if you can't, it seems to far outclass all other performance
skills outside of bardic musical use. A rogue with performance: dance
will always be shown up by the rogue with performance: weapons display,
even though they have equal charisma and equal ranks.

- Ron ^*^
 
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Werebat wrote:
> This was mentioned in Unearthed Arcana, and unless I'm missing
> something, it seems overpowered. Why would a bard, or a character
> interested in performing, ever choose anything else?
>
> In addition to the usual ranks+ChaBonus, you get a bonus equal to half
> your BAB, as well as various +2 bonii for different feats like Combat
> Expertise and Weapon Focus. I have a character right now with 4 ranks
> in Perform: Weapons Display, who has actually got a +13 bonus to his
> roll at 8th level (+2 for Cha, +3 for his BAB, and two +2 bonuses for
> combat feats).
>
> Is there some reason any character would take anything other than
> Weapons Display for a Performance type? How could this option be

The standard Performs are sound-based (Sing, Recite Epic,
Oratory...), and so your friends in the party get the
benefits without having to look at you, unlike wit Weapons
Display which is clearly a visual kind of effect.

> reigned in? Just treat it like any other type of Performance (maybe
> allowing a +2 bonus for Masterwork weapons used in the performance)?

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
 
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Peter Knutsen wrote:
>
> Werebat wrote:
>
>> This was mentioned in Unearthed Arcana, and unless I'm missing
>> something, it seems overpowered. Why would a bard, or a character
>> interested in performing, ever choose anything else?
>>
>> In addition to the usual ranks+ChaBonus, you get a bonus equal to half
>> your BAB, as well as various +2 bonii for different feats like Combat
>> Expertise and Weapon Focus. I have a character right now with 4 ranks
>> in Perform: Weapons Display, who has actually got a +13 bonus to his
>> roll at 8th level (+2 for Cha, +3 for his BAB, and two +2 bonuses for
>> combat feats).
>>
>> Is there some reason any character would take anything other than
>> Weapons Display for a Performance type? How could this option be
>
>
> The standard Performs are sound-based (Sing, Recite Epic, Oratory...),
> and so your friends in the party get the benefits without having to look
> at you, unlike wit Weapons Display which is clearly a visual kind of
> effect.

So it ignores Silence spells, then.

Even considering this, why would anyone take Dance over Weapons Display?

- Ron ^*^
 
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On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:12:00 -0500, Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> scribed
into the ether:

>
>
>Senator Blutarsky wrote:
>> Werebat wrote:

>> Because you can't use it to perform bardic music?
>
>Can't you?

It isn't musical, so no, you couldn't.

>And even if you can't, it seems to far outclass all other performance
>skills outside of bardic musical use. A rogue with performance: dance
>will always be shown up by the rogue with performance: weapons display,
>even though they have equal charisma and equal ranks.

What would you rather watch, a tape of Riverdance, or the opening credits
of "A Few Good Men" with the rifle twirling display?
 
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Matt Frisch wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:12:00 -0500, Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> scribed
> into the ether:
>
>
>>
>>Senator Blutarsky wrote:
>>
>>>Werebat wrote:
>
>
>>>Because you can't use it to perform bardic music?
>>
>>Can't you?
>
>
> It isn't musical, so no, you couldn't.
>
>
>>And even if you can't, it seems to far outclass all other performance
>>skills outside of bardic musical use. A rogue with performance: dance
>>will always be shown up by the rogue with performance: weapons display,
>>even though they have equal charisma and equal ranks.
>
>
> What would you rather watch, a tape of Riverdance, or the opening credits
> of "A Few Good Men" with the rifle twirling display?

Or a sultry, seductive, Cha 20 Paragon Human female doing the dance of
1000 veils?

- Ron ^*^
 
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Matt Frisch wrote:
>
> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:12:00 -0500, Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> scribed
> into the ether:
> >
> >Senator Blutarsky wrote:
>
> >> Because you can't use it to perform bardic music?
> >
> >Can't you?
>
> It isn't musical, so no, you couldn't.

Also, it's specifically mentioned in the skill's
write-up (for the benefit of those readers lacking any
common sense) that you can't.

-Bluto
 
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"Senator Blutarsky" <monarchy@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:42351FE2.C08813A3@comcast.net...
> Matt Frisch wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:12:00 -0500, Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> scribed
>> into the ether:
>> >
>> >Senator Blutarsky wrote:
>>
>> >> Because you can't use it to perform bardic music?
>> >
>> >Can't you?
>>
>> It isn't musical, so no, you couldn't.
>
> Also, it's specifically mentioned in the skill's
> write-up (for the benefit of those readers lacking any
> common sense) that you can't.

....although a singing sword could be interesting ;-)

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 
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Malachias Invictus wrote:
> "Senator Blutarsky" <monarchy@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:42351FE2.C08813A3@comcast.net...
>
>>Matt Frisch wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 16:12:00 -0500, Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> scribed
>>>into the ether:
>>>
>>>>Senator Blutarsky wrote:
>>>
>>>>>Because you can't use it to perform bardic music?
>>>>
>>>>Can't you?
>>>
>>>It isn't musical, so no, you couldn't.
>>
>>Also, it's specifically mentioned in the skill's
>>write-up (for the benefit of those readers lacking any
>>common sense) that you can't.
>
>
> ...although a singing sword could be interesting ;-)

Maybe it's just me, then. I have this funny problem with weapons
display being able to trump ALL other types of performance in, say, a
state fair competition where there are no weird factors like no one
being able to see the performance. It seems unbalancing to me. I guess
I'm wrong.

No problem there, I have a character who's been exploiting it for some
time now; guess I won't bother to correct it. The party bard is a
little miffed that I blow him away in performance ability and I only
have 4 ranks in the skill, but hey.

- Ron ^*^
 
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You DM's fault. Fails to apply situational modifiers.

OK, I'm in the audience and I have a choice of performers to watch. Do
I choose:

a) watching a man twirling around his weapon with great skill and
expertise (this one is too easy for Hong)

b) a moderately talented singer, <insert your favorite band here -
let's face it, they are not usually great musicians, have perfect
voices, etc, but they have appeal regardless of the lack of technical
expertise>

c) a lithe and beautiful naked female dancer, who has really bad
rhythm, can't stay with the beat, but can put her legs over her head?

Bonus question: who gets the dollar bills I'm holding in my hand?

Your weapon performing guy may have greater skill, but - who makes more
money; the technically brilliant precise twirlings of the Marine Corps,
or a no-talented near naked teenie bopper?
 
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On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 20:39:47 -0500, Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote:

>
>
>Matt Frisch wrote:
>
>> What would you rather watch, a tape of Riverdance, or the opening credits
>> of "A Few Good Men" with the rifle twirling display?
>
>Or a sultry, seductive, Cha 20 Paragon Human female doing the dance of
>1000 veils?

Or a sultry, seductive, Cha 20 Paragon human male doing a "rifle twirling
display"?


Hong "check out my 'long arm', BAY-BEE" Ooi
--
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hong@zipworld.com.au | STRATEGY GAME!!!"
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/ | -- RR
Sydney, Australia |
 
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alordofchaos@yahoo.com wrote:
> You DM's fault. Fails to apply situational modifiers.
>
> OK, I'm in the audience and I have a choice of performers to watch. Do
> I choose:
>
> a) watching a man twirling around his weapon with great skill and
> expertise (this one is too easy for Hong)
>
> b) a moderately talented singer, <insert your favorite band here -
> let's face it, they are not usually great musicians, have perfect
> voices, etc, but they have appeal regardless of the lack of technical
> expertise>
>
> c) a lithe and beautiful naked female dancer, who has really bad
> rhythm, can't stay with the beat, but can put her legs over her head?
>
> Bonus question: who gets the dollar bills I'm holding in my hand?

This is a bogus comparision. A better would be:

a) watching a lithe and beautiful naked female twirling around her
weapon with great skill and expertise (10 ranks in Perform: Weapons Display)

b) watching a lithe and beautiful naked female singer performing with
great skill and expertise (10 ranks in Perform: Singing)

c) watching a lithe and beautiful naked female dancer performing with
great skill and expertise (10 ranks in Perform: Dancing)

The fact that we'd all really like to attend this hypothetical faire
aside... As the rules stand, the first performer will blow the other
two out of the water, especially if she is a fighter who min/maxes with
her feats. Even if the other two are bards who also min/maxed, she'll
still consistently get more applause and donations. I see a problem here.

Even if they both max out their ranks and have equal charisma, the
fighter with weapons display will usually beat the bard with weapons
display. What is a bard if NOT the class that can outshine all of the
others at stage performing when she puts her mind to it? There is a
gaping hole in the rules here that is so billowingly huge, even MSB
could see it.

- Ron ^*^
 
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alordofchaos@yahoo.com wrote:

> OK, I'm in the audience and I have a choice of performers to watch. Do
> I choose:
>
> a) watching a man twirling around his weapon with great skill and
> expertise (this one is too easy for Hong)

Say Werebat's character: 4 ranks, +2 Cha, +3 from BAB, +4 from two
combat feats. +13.

> b) a moderately talented singer, <insert your favorite band here -
> let's face it, they are not usually great musicians, have perfect
> voices, etc, but they have appeal regardless of the lack of technical
> expertise>

Say: 6 ranks, +2 Cha. +8.

> c) a lithe and beautiful naked female dancer, who has really bad
> rhythm, can't stay with the beat, but can put her legs over her head?

Say: 1 rank, +4 Cha. +2 bonus for nudity? +7.

The crowd at a fair in D&D-land will go watch Werebat, unless you give
the stripper a wacky situational bonus like +10, which is equivalent to
magic worth 10000 gp, on par with a bow that shoots flaming arrows or a
figurine that can turn into a real, live griffon.

> Bonus question: who gets the dollar bills I'm holding in my hand?
>
> Your weapon performing guy may have greater skill, but - who makes more
> money; the technically brilliant precise twirlings of the Marine Corps,
> or a no-talented near naked teenie bopper?

This is precisely the point.

You'd go watch the stripper, but the folks in a D&D fair will go see the
twirler, since his perform checks blow hers right out of the water.
Something appears to be wrong with the perform check system then, no?


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr
 
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ranpoirier@cox.net wrote:

> Maybe it's just me, then. I have this funny problem with weapons
> display being able to trump ALL other types of performance in, say, a
> state fair competition where there are no weird factors like no one
> being able to see the performance. It seems unbalancing to me. I guess
> I'm wrong.

Of course you're not. It is wacky.

A reasonable house rule might be to allow one to substitute BAB for
ranks in perform for weapons display. Perhaps allowing combat feats to
give additional bonuses, but severely limit the number of applicable
feats and/or the bonus granted. Maybe +1 for each of Weapon
Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization
can take? Nice effect of making maxed out weapons display skill equal
level + 3, like a maxed out skill.


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr
 
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Jasin Zujovic wrote:

> ranpoirier@cox.net wrote:
>
>
>>Maybe it's just me, then. I have this funny problem with weapons
>>display being able to trump ALL other types of performance in, say, a
>>state fair competition where there are no weird factors like no one
>>being able to see the performance. It seems unbalancing to me. I guess
>>I'm wrong.
>
>
> Of course you're not. It is wacky.
>
> A reasonable house rule might be to allow one to substitute BAB for
> ranks in perform for weapons display.

Half BAB, maybe.


> Perhaps allowing combat feats to
> give additional bonuses, but severely limit the number of applicable
> feats and/or the bonus granted. Maybe +1 for each of Weapon
> Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization
> can take? Nice effect of making maxed out weapons display skill equal
> level + 3, like a maxed out skill.

As written that still grants fighters something close to a "free"
maxed-out skill. I don't think that's a great idea.

- Ron ^*^
 
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"Werebat" <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote in message
news:hfPZd.64113$7z6.24152@lakeread04...
> Jasin Zujovic wrote:

>> A reasonable house rule might be to allow one to substitute BAB for ranks
>> in perform for weapons display.
>
> Half BAB, maybe.

Screw it - allow a +2 synergy bonus for a 5 BAB, and a +4 for a 15 BAB, as
if your BAB counted as ranks in a synergizing skill. The fact that you can
kick major ass does not make you some sort of expert at artistic weapon
display.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 
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On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:16:24 -0800, "Malachias Invictus"
<capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Werebat" <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote in message
>news:hfPZd.64113$7z6.24152@lakeread04...
>> Jasin Zujovic wrote:
>
>>> A reasonable house rule might be to allow one to substitute BAB for ranks
>>> in perform for weapons display.
>>
>> Half BAB, maybe.
>
>Screw it - allow a +2 synergy bonus for a 5 BAB, and a +4 for a 15 BAB, as
>if your BAB counted as ranks in a synergizing skill. The fact that you can
>kick major ass does not make you some sort of expert at artistic weapon
>display.

I agree that a "synergy bonus" is the right one here.

Query: Where did the "+4 for 15" come from? House rule? Splatbook
rule? Core rule that I somehow managed to overlook?

My own rule zero for synergy bonuses is that 3 ranks gives +1, 5 ranks
gives +2, 10 ranks gives +3 and 20 ranks gives +4.



--
Erol K. Bayburt
ErolB1@aol.com
 
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Mal's synergy bonus is an elegant alternative.

Ron said:
> This is a bogus comparision. A better would be: <snipped better
comparisons>

Sorry, bad methodology on my part. but I would add additional
situational modifiers (pulling these out of my ass cuz I don't have
time/too lazy to think about it) for:
a) watching a lithe and beautiful naked female twirling around her
weapon with great skill and expertise (10 ranks in Perform: Weapons
Display)

-4? penalty because (except for subscribers to Guns for Hire magazine)
any kind of performance centered around Weapons Display gets really
boring?

It's a little more interesting if there is a cadre of folks tossing and
twirling weapons around, but you can only do so much yourself. It
becomes kind of like watching a baton twirler - oooh, she threw it up
30 feet in the air, did some somersaults and caught it. Yawn, she did
it again. Yawn, more twirling.

Singing and dancing offer endless variety and interpretation - you can
only do so much with a weapon. (Yeah, some of the martial arts
displays are a little more interesting than standard twirl and catch,
but still...)

additional -4 penalty, because most people in the audience can't relate
to Weapons Display? Although they can appreciate the skill and
precision, they probably won't relate the same way they can with a
well-performed rendition of "Feelings" :) Reminds me of when I watch
"Autoweek" on TV - my wife will say, "that's a pretty car" but have no
understanding of the mechanical intricacies, engineering marvels, etc
that it represents. BTW, "Autoweek" is not exactly a hit TV show.
Also, all those shows the critics just _love_ and no one wants to see?

-2 penalty because, interesting as Weapons Display is (to some people),
the audience doesn't really want to be _near_ the twirling weapon? A
nuclear explosion is beautiful to watch - in a movie clip.
 
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Malachias Invictus wrote:
> "Werebat" <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:hfPZd.64113$7z6.24152@lakeread04...
> > Jasin Zujovic wrote:
>
> >> A reasonable house rule might be to allow one to substitute BAB
for ranks
> >> in perform for weapons display.
> >
> > Half BAB, maybe.
>
> Screw it - allow a +2 synergy bonus for a 5 BAB, and a +4 for a 15
BAB, as
> if your BAB counted as ranks in a synergizing skill. The fact that
you can
> kick major ass does not make you some sort of expert at artistic
weapon
> display.

Bravo! Mal wins the "perform: fix obviously broken rules" contest.

Now why didn't whoever wrote whatever supliment this came out of think
to use the normal game rules for how knowing one thing helps to do
others?

(Side comment, IIRC it is 25 ranks for +4 BTB, and even that is an
Epic rule.)

DougL
 
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"Erol K. Bayburt" <ErolB1@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:gdhg31d0ncaa1aq2qdpnibg6j5jfquv146@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:16:24 -0800, "Malachias Invictus"
> <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Werebat" <ranpoirier@cox.net> wrote in message
>>news:hfPZd.64113$7z6.24152@lakeread04...
>>> Jasin Zujovic wrote:
>>
>>>> A reasonable house rule might be to allow one to substitute BAB for
>>>> ranks
>>>> in perform for weapons display.
>>>
>>> Half BAB, maybe.
>>
>>Screw it - allow a +2 synergy bonus for a 5 BAB, and a +4 for a 15 BAB, as
>>if your BAB counted as ranks in a synergizing skill. The fact that you
>>can
>>kick major ass does not make you some sort of expert at artistic weapon
>>display.
>
> I agree that a "synergy bonus" is the right one here.
>
> Query: Where did the "+4 for 15" come from? House rule? Splatbook
> rule? Core rule that I somehow managed to overlook?

It is in a WotC book; I am not sure which. It may have been the Epic Level
Handbook.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 
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Malachias Invictus <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> "Erol K. Bayburt" <ErolB1@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:gdhg31d0ncaa1aq2qdpnibg6j5jfquv146@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:16:24 -0800, "Malachias Invictus"
>> <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Screw it - allow a +2 synergy bonus for a 5 BAB, and a +4 for a 15 BAB, as
>>
>> I agree that a "synergy bonus" is the right one here.
>>
>> Query: Where did the "+4 for 15" come from? House rule? Splatbook
>> rule? Core rule that I somehow managed to overlook?
>
> It is in a WotC book; I am not sure which. It may have been the Epic
> Level Handbook.

Epic gives synergy bonuses at 5, 25, 45, 65, etc.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "English is not a language. English is a
keith.davies@kjdavies.org bad habit shared between Norman invaders
keith.davies@gmail.com and Saxon barmaids!"
http://www.kjdavies.org/ -- Frog, IRC, 2005/01/13
 
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capt_malachias@hotmail.com wrote:

> >> A reasonable house rule might be to allow one to substitute BAB for ranks
> >> in perform for weapons display.
> >
> > Half BAB, maybe.
>
> Screw it - allow a +2 synergy bonus for a 5 BAB, and a +4 for a 15 BAB, as
> if your BAB counted as ranks in a synergizing skill. The fact that you can
> kick major ass does not make you some sort of expert at artistic weapon
> display.

I revise my opinion, and agree here. (Although I'd only give +4 for BAB
+15 if I gave +4 synergy for 15 ranks in a skill, which is not a PHB
rule.)


--
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jzujovic@inet.hr
 
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"Jasin Zujovic" <jzujovic@inet.hr> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ca2d7ae4648f7f89899e0@news.iskon.hr...
> capt_malachias@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> >> A reasonable house rule might be to allow one to substitute BAB for
>> >> ranks
>> >> in perform for weapons display.
>> >
>> > Half BAB, maybe.
>>
>> Screw it - allow a +2 synergy bonus for a 5 BAB, and a +4 for a 15 BAB,
>> as
>> if your BAB counted as ranks in a synergizing skill. The fact that you
>> can
>> kick major ass does not make you some sort of expert at artistic weapon
>> display.
>
> I revise my opinion, and agree here. (Although I'd only give +4 for BAB
> +15 if I gave +4 synergy for 15 ranks in a skill, which is not a PHB
> rule.)

Apparently it is 25 ranks, anyway, and thus unlikely to matter. I wonder
why I came up with 15 ranks. I swear I saw this somewhere.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 
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Malachias Invictus wrote:
> "Jasin Zujovic" <jzujovic@inet.hr> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1ca2d7ae4648f7f89899e0@news.iskon.hr...
> > capt_malachias@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> >> >> A reasonable house rule might be to allow one to substitute BAB
for
> >> >> ranks
> >> >> in perform for weapons display.
> >> >
> >> > Half BAB, maybe.
> >>
> >> Screw it - allow a +2 synergy bonus for a 5 BAB, and a +4 for a 15
BAB,
> >> as
> >> if your BAB counted as ranks in a synergizing skill. The fact
that you
> >> can
> >> kick major ass does not make you some sort of expert at artistic
weapon
> >> display.
> >
> > I revise my opinion, and agree here. (Although I'd only give +4 for
BAB
> > +15 if I gave +4 synergy for 15 ranks in a skill, which is not a
PHB
> > rule.)
>
> Apparently it is 25 ranks, anyway, and thus unlikely to matter. I
wonder
> why I came up with 15 ranks. I swear I saw this somewhere.

Because giving the same bonus from level 2 to level 21 is really a
bad idea. Level 1 characters (aka most of the world's population)
gain no benifit at all from synergy, there is no real reason to
increase skills related to your main skill after level 2, ext...

If it were me I'd do something like allow a +1 for every 4 ranks
in related skills. But I didn't write these rules, and synergy is
not worth a major houserule.

DougL