Please errate Perfectionnist !

orpheus

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It is not a power card, granted. But its impact on the game is worse
than that : it wallpaperises all the other archetypes (at least the
active ones, I've never seen the others played) : why will you want a
"succesful bleed for a Sabbat vamp", or a "send to torpor" condition,
when every action you succeed without a reaction card played will get
you one blood ?

I'd like to see it either Unique, "only one per methuselah" condition,
or maybe "independant vampire" or something such. This way, Capitalist,
Bravo and co will (still marginally) see the light of day.

Well, nothing better than a Blood Doll anyway, but they do combine
nicely with some archetypes... ;)

Orpheus
 
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LSJ wrote:
> Orpheus wrote:
>
> > It is not a power card, granted. But its impact on the game is
worse
> > than that : it wallpaperises all the other archetypes (at least the

> > active ones, I've never seen the others played) : why will you want
a
> > "succesful bleed for a Sabbat vamp", or a "send to torpor"
condition,
> > when every action you succeed without a reaction card played will
get
> > you one blood ?
>
> Um, because sometimes people play reaction cards and the action
> still succeeds? Stealth bleed, anyone?
>

That's a good example. I do believe that in order for the other
Archetypes to be good when compared to Perfectionist would be to play
them all as trifles. I would make Capitalist an obvious exception -
it's still worth a full master phase action.

Is it worth your time actually changing the old archetypes? Probably
not.

Dorrinal Blackmantle
Chronicler of Clan Tremere
 
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Orpheus wrote:
> It is not a power card, granted. But its impact on the game is worse
> than that : it wallpaperises all the other archetypes...

FWIW, Perfectionist (3x), Capitalist (4x), Curmudgeon (3x) and Bravo
(1x)have all made the Tournament Winning Decklist. There may be others,
but I'm not gonna check 'em all. :) Sociopath was zero though.

Jeff
 
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jeffk...@pacbell.net wrote:
> Orpheus wrote:
> > It is not a power card, granted. But its impact on the game is
worse
> > than that : it wallpaperises all the other archetypes...
>
> FWIW, Perfectionist (3x), Capitalist (4x), Curmudgeon (3x) and Bravo
> (1x)have all made the Tournament Winning Decklist. There may be
others,
> but I'm not gonna check 'em all. :) Sociopath was zero though.
>
> Jeff

I'm not surprised at those numbers a all. Bravo can easily be replaced
with Perfectionist, and Capitalist and Curmudgeon are still playable
when compared with Perfectionist.

Dorrinal Blackmantle
Curmudgeon of Clan Tremere
 
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Orpheus wrote:

> It is not a power card, granted. But its impact on the game is worse
> than that : it wallpaperises all the other archetypes (at least the
> active ones, I've never seen the others played) : why will you want a
> "succesful bleed for a Sabbat vamp", or a "send to torpor" condition,
> when every action you succeed without a reaction card played will get
> you one blood ?

Um, because sometimes people play reaction cards and the action
still succeeds? Stealth bleed, anyone?

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orpheus

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Dorrinal Blackmantle a écrit :
> LSJ wrote:
>
>>Orpheus wrote:
>>
>>
>>>It is not a power card, granted. But its impact on the game is
>
> worse
>
>>>than that : it wallpaperises all the other archetypes (at least the
>
>
>>>active ones, I've never seen the others played) : why will you want
>
> a
>
>>>"succesful bleed for a Sabbat vamp", or a "send to torpor"
>
> condition,
>
>>>when every action you succeed without a reaction card played will
>
> get
>
>>>you one blood ?
>>
>>Um, because sometimes people play reaction cards and the action
>>still succeeds? Stealth bleed, anyone?
>>
>
> That's a good example.

Capitalist looks like the only serious concurrent, granted. But still
it's not worth it : even a hunt action will give you one+ blood with
Perfectionnist. Enormous with Rutor's Hand !! A Lasombra toolbox vote /
bleed will gain every time. And even in my Kiasyd bleed-only, I've
progressively replaced the Capitalists by Perfectionnists, and found
that it was better most of the time.

Now, it can be mainly me or my environment ; but as for the other
archetypes, there is no possible comparison at all.

I do believe that in order for the other
> Archetypes to be good when compared to Perfectionist would be to play
> them all as trifles.

Yes, but some already are I think. Maybe making them trifle by default ?
Mmmm, might be too big.

I would make Capitalist an obvious exception -
> it's still worth a full master phase action.

Yes.

> Is it worth your time actually changing the old archetypes? Probably
> not.

Agreed. So the easiest way is to change just one card.

Once more, it's not a card you'll see abused in the PTO or Succubus
sense of the term. But it IS a shame that such a nice concept -
archetypes - would be sent to oblivion (at least all the old ones) by
just one card. Like if you had Gird Minions and suddenly came up with
Blood Dolls...

Orpheus
 

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jeffkuta@pacbell.net a écrit :
> Orpheus wrote:
>
>>It is not a power card, granted. But its impact on the game is worse
>>than that : it wallpaperises all the other archetypes...
>
>
> FWIW, Perfectionist (3x), Capitalist (4x), Curmudgeon (3x) and Bravo
> (1x)have all made the Tournament Winning Decklist. There may be others,
> but I'm not gonna check 'em all. :) Sociopath was zero though.
>
> Jeff

Thank you for the information.

As already said : Capitalist is the only active archetype able to
survive Perfectionnist ; and Curmudgeon is a reacting archetype, so
concerns a totally different type of decks, and isn't replaceable by Perf.

As for Bravo, I'd say 2 things : 1) it isn't because a deck with 1 in it
won anything that it makes the card worth anything and 2) some card may
be relatively good but still be wallpeperized by just plain goodness.

Orpheus
 
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In message <424db2f5$0$21466$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-05.noos.net>, reyda
<true_reyda@hotmail.com> writes:
>but sociopath is a great card in a fighting deck that can also
>intercept. you can gain blood during your turn, during your prey's turn
>and during your predator's turn : a free 3 blood swing from one untap
>to the other is something good in my book.

It also benefits from the fact that rush decks don't typically care
about whether their action succeeds or not, so people can (and do) block
them to deny them the maneuver from a Bum's Rush or to block with a
weenie instead of the big target.

What's difficult is that I don't know if the fact that it's a Master
card works so well. Typically, you want a reasonable cycle of cards for
combat, so it could get in the way. I don't think that's too big a
problem. But, might a combat deck think that Taste of Vitae is a better
card to play a lot of the time? Of course, if you're using agg damage
or other torporization strikes, that's different.


What I think is a bigger problem is that you often have other masters
claiming space - intercept locations, Haven Uncovered, pool gain etc.
It'd generally be better as a trifle, which Sociopath isn't. :(


That makes me wonder, though. I wonder what a Malkavian Multiple
Personality Disorder/Dementation card would be like which allowed the
use of more than one archetype. Or a flexible card which allowed
something at inferior, and the fetching/playing of an archetype at
superior. Dementation strikes me as the obvious place for such a card,
though a slightly... unusual psychiatrist ally might be fun.

--
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PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
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Orpheus wrote:
> Capitalist looks like the only serious concurrent, granted. But still
> it's not worth it : even a hunt action will give you one+ blood with
> Perfectionnist. Enormous with Rutor's Hand !! A Lasombra toolbox vote /
> bleed will gain every time. And even in my Kiasyd bleed-only, I've
> progressively replaced the Capitalists by Perfectionnists, and found
> that it was better most of the time.
>
> Now, it can be mainly me or my environment ; but as for the other
> archetypes, there is no possible comparison at all.

If no one plays wakes or intercept in your environment, it could well be
your environment, yes.

A Wake will thwart Perfectionist.

Even on tossed by your predator when you're bleeding your prey or when
your Lasombra toolbox calls a Con Boon.

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jeffkuta@pacbell.net a écrit :
> Orpheus wrote:
>
>>It is not a power card, granted. But its impact on the game is worse
>>than that : it wallpaperises all the other archetypes...
>
>
> FWIW, Perfectionist (3x), Capitalist (4x), Curmudgeon (3x) and Bravo
> (1x)have all made the Tournament Winning Decklist. There may be others,
> but I'm not gonna check 'em all. :) Sociopath was zero though.


but sociopath is a great card in a fighting deck that can also
intercept. you can gain blood during your turn, during your prey's turn
and during your predator's turn : a free 3 blood swing from one untap to
the other is something good in my book.
 
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On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 22:25:50 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
wrote:

> Orpheus wrote:
>> Capitalist looks like the only serious concurrent, granted. But still
>> it's not worth it : even a hunt action will give you one+ blood with
>> Perfectionnist. Enormous with Rutor's Hand !! A Lasombra toolbox vote /
>> bleed will gain every time. And even in my Kiasyd bleed-only, I've
>> progressively replaced the Capitalists by Perfectionnists, and found
>> that it was better most of the time.
>>
>> Now, it can be mainly me or my environment ; but as for the other
>> archetypes, there is no possible comparison at all.
>
> If no one plays wakes or intercept in your environment, it could well be
> your environment, yes.
>
> A Wake will thwart Perfectionist.
>
> Even on tossed by your predator when you're bleeding your prey or when
> your Lasombra toolbox calls a Con Boon.

People being able to throw away a defensive resource isn't really
that often. A good deal of the time that Wake is needed for the
purpose it was included in the deck for.

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Daneel
 
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In message <opsoli8rgco6j3lh@news.chello.hu>, Daneel <daniel@eposta.hu>
writes:
>On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 22:25:50 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
>wrote:
>> A Wake will thwart Perfectionist.
>>
>> Even on tossed by your predator when you're bleeding your prey or when
>> your Lasombra toolbox calls a Con Boon.
>
>People being able to throw away a defensive resource isn't really
> that often. A good deal of the time that Wake is needed for the
> purpose it was included in the deck for.

Well, that assumes that you view a denied blood as wasted - thought it
might typically be super-expensive, yes.

Also, on bleeds in particular, you may well be bouncing and waking
anyway. On votes, you may be playing Delaying Tactics or Confusion of
the Eye. Combat less so, but combat is often played without stealth (or
much stealth) and so may not be successful. Blocking is far from
uncommon, and if a player is having to spend resources on making sure
that that Perfect minion isn't blocked, it may well be a bigger downside
for them.

--
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PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
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Daneel wrote:
> On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 22:25:50 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
> wrote:
>> If no one plays wakes or intercept in your environment, it could well be
>> your environment, yes.
>>
>> A Wake will thwart Perfectionist.
>>
>> Even on tossed by your predator when you're bleeding your prey or when
>> your Lasombra toolbox calls a Con Boon.
>
> People being able to throw away a defensive resource isn't really
> that often. A good deal of the time that Wake is needed for the
> purpose it was included in the deck for.

Wake is generally included for the purpose of reacting to someone's
actions when you don't want them to get what they expect from that
action (by blocking, deflecting, or simply thwarting their Perfectionist).

If you want to throw away the defensive resource to block a bleed
instead, that's certainly your option.

But if you feel that the Perfectionist blood gain is an obstacle to
your deck's strategy, you might be advised to use (not throw away)
your Wake to stop it, just like anything else.

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James Coupe a écrit :
> In message <424db2f5$0$21466$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-05.noos.net>, reyda
> <true_reyda@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>>but sociopath is a great card in a fighting deck that can also
>>intercept. you can gain blood during your turn, during your prey's turn
>>and during your predator's turn : a free 3 blood swing from one untap
>>to the other is something good in my book.
>
>
> It also benefits from the fact that rush decks don't typically care
> about whether their action succeeds or not, so people can (and do) block
> them to deny them the maneuver from a Bum's Rush or to block with a
> weenie instead of the big target.

the problem of bravo is : you have not to be blocked in your enter
combat attempt. Sociopath is good since no matter who gets on the way,
you gain one blood if you bruise him.


> What's difficult is that I don't know if the fact that it's a Master
> card works so well. Typically, you want a reasonable cycle of cards for
> combat, so it could get in the way.

Typically, in a Blood brother deck (where i think this card is a marvel)
gaining blood is very important.

> I don't think that's too big a
> problem. But, might a combat deck think that Taste of Vitae is a better
> card to play a lot of the time? Of course, if you're using agg damage
> or other torporization strikes, that's different.

in the endgame, you have a lot of opposing vampire with one or zero
blood on them: First, they get exhausted from playing card. Second,
opposing methuselah see you are playing a combat deck, so they minion
tap their minion very low just so you cannot gain blood via Tastes (this
happen very often) and they have plenty of pool available. The standard
strategy is leaving just one or two blood on a fattie, so he can play
majesty twice if you're lucky enough to not face the dreaded grapples.


> What I think is a bigger problem is that you often have other masters
> claiming space - intercept locations, Haven Uncovered, pool gain etc.
> It'd generally be better as a trifle, which Sociopath isn't. :(

In a deck that can also intercept, even a simple hunt action from your
pred, it's still a free blood. Even if the hunting vamp was empty. It's
in any case better than a hunting ground. Plus it encourages "proactive
play" ;)



>
> That makes me wonder, though. I wonder what a Malkavian Multiple
> Personality Disorder/Dementation card would be like which allowed the
> use of more than one archetype. Or a flexible card which allowed
> something at inferior, and the fetching/playing of an archetype at
> superior. Dementation strikes me as the obvious place for such a card,
> though a slightly... unusual psychiatrist ally might be fun.

the "fetch an archetype from your library and place it on a vampire"
card would be a neat idea indeed :)
 
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Orpheus <orpheus.13@deadfree.fr> wrote:
> It is not a power card, granted. But its impact on the game is worse
> than that : it wallpaperises all the other archetypes (at least the
> active ones, I've never seen the others played) : why will you want a
> "succesful bleed for a Sabbat vamp", or a "send to torpor" condition,
> when every action you succeed without a reaction card played will get
> you one blood ?

I quite agree that Perfectionnist should be errated.
The main reason is that it fits in most decks, but maybe some
wall decks that react more than they act, and some decks which
strategy relies on a lot of masters and in which the "master slot"
has an heavy cost.

Cards that go against deck diversity should be as few as possible.
 
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Herve wrote:

> I quite agree that Perfectionnist should be errated.
> The main reason is that it fits in most decks, but maybe some
> wall decks that react more than they act, and some decks which
> strategy relies on a lot of masters and in which the "master slot"
> has an heavy cost.

As mentioned elsewhere, yeah, it *can* go in most decks, but it tends not
to. As it takes up a master slot, and while it is certainly handy, so are a
lot of other master cards. And yeah, it is likely that Perfectionist is far
and away the best Archetype, and arguably it makes most of the other
Archetypes kind of wallpapery (although Capitalist and Sociopath are
reasonably useful), I don't think this is 'cause Perfectionist is too good,
but that the other ones are all kinda weak. Which is reasonable, as they
were a new idea when printed, and the designers seemed to err on the side of
caution. So this leaves us with Perfectionist, which is pretty good, and a
bunch of other Archetypes, which are kind of weak.

As there seems to be a concerted effort to avoid upgrading weak cards
historically (other than by printing new versions that are just better--see
Chainsaw/Gas Powered Chainsaw; the only card I can think of that was
upgraded significantly is Concealed Weapon, which was a reasonable move),
sadly, the best option is simply to leave the less useful Archetypes alone,
leave Perfectionist alone, and then print a few more new Archetypes that are
as useful as Perfectionist.


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"How does this end?"
"In fire."
Emperor Turhan and Kosh
 
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> I quite agree that Perfectionnist should be errated.
> The main reason is that it fits in most decks, but maybe some
> wall decks that react more than they act, and some decks which
> strategy relies on a lot of masters and in which the "master slot"
> has an heavy cost.
>
> Cards that go against deck diversity should be as few as possible.

While I agree that it could go in most decks, I notice that it ends up not
going into most decks. Master slots are of prime importance in a deck, and
for almost every deck archetype there is a requisite number of masters,
with very little room for diversity in the first place. More often than no
my perfectionist gets cut.

Derek Rawlings
 
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On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 13:12:15 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
wrote:

>> People being able to throw away a defensive resource isn't really
>> that often. A good deal of the time that Wake is needed for the
>> purpose it was included in the deck for.
>
> Wake is generally included for the purpose of reacting to someone's
> actions when you don't want them to get what they expect from that
> action (by blocking, deflecting, or simply thwarting their
> Perfectionist).

Please show me a single Wake ever that has been included in a deck
ever to thwart Perfectionist. Like, ever. ;)

> If you want to throw away the defensive resource to block a bleed
> instead, that's certainly your option.
>
> But if you feel that the Perfectionist blood gain is an obstacle to
> your deck's strategy, you might be advised to use (not throw away)
> your Wake to stop it, just like anything else.

Crack pipe. Disengage use. Defences not being included in normal
deck to prevent 1 blood being gained from Perfectionist. Mayday.
Solid argument error. Repeat. Wakes included to Deflect bleeds
or to Delay the votes. Not to thwart Perfectionist. Brace for
impact. X-)

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Daneel
 
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Daneel wrote:
> On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 13:12:15 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
>>> People being able to throw away a defensive resource isn't really
>>> that often. A good deal of the time that Wake is needed for the
>>> purpose it was included in the deck for.
>>
>> Wake is generally included for the purpose of reacting to someone's
>> actions when you don't want them to get what they expect from that
>> action (by blocking, deflecting, or simply thwarting their
>> Perfectionist).
>
> Please show me a single Wake ever that has been included in a deck
> ever to thwart Perfectionist. Like, ever. ;)

Please show me where that was suggested.

Wake is a general purpose card. One of those purposes is to block.
Another is to deflect. Reduce. Delay. Thwart perfectionist.

It's just up to the player to figure out what the best use of
it is at the given moment. Often enough, there are enough of
them such that the best use of one of them is "Wake and watch"
(that is, do nothing).


>> If you want to throw away the defensive resource to block a bleed
>> instead, that's certainly your option.
>>
>> But if you feel that the Perfectionist blood gain is an obstacle to
>> your deck's strategy, you might be advised to use (not throw away)
>> your Wake to stop it, just like anything else.
>
>
> Crack pipe. Disengage use. Defences not being included in normal
> deck to prevent 1 blood being gained from Perfectionist. Mayday.
> Solid argument error. Repeat. Wakes included to Deflect bleeds
> or to Delay the votes. Not to thwart Perfectionist. Brace for
> impact. X-)

Try reading what it written instead of inventing straw men to
knock down.

Build the deck. Then, in play, when faced with actual decks,
use what is in your deck to your advantage.

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James Coupe wrote:
> That makes me wonder, though. I wonder what a Malkavian Multiple
> Personality Disorder/Dementation card would be like which allowed the
> use of more than one archetype.

Dissociative Personality
Master: archetype. Put this card on a Malkavian you control. If this
Malkavian successfully takes an action that does not change the pool
total of any Methuselah or the blood total of any vampire, this
Malkavian gains one blood. This card does not count against this
Malkavian's limit of 1 archetype.
 
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Daneel wrote:

> Please show me a single Wake ever that has been included in a deck
> ever to thwart Perfectionist. Like, ever. ;)

It doesn't need to be included as, like, specific anti-Perfectionist tech.
'Cause that is kind of silly. But you likely have Wakes anyway. Your
predator, with a Perfectionist, is taking an action. You could Wake and try
and block--maybe you block, maybe you just foil the Perfectionist. Either
case is reasonable. Yes, Perfectionist tends to be much better in decks with
lots and lots of little minions that take lots of actions, so you are
unlikely to try and Wake and block to stop that Perfectionist hunt, 'cause
you don't want to be overwhelmed by bleeds later in the turn. But that means
that Perfectionist is really good in a much smaller number of decks than
"every deck in the game".

> Crack pipe. Disengage use. Defences not being included in normal
> deck to prevent 1 blood being gained from Perfectionist. Mayday.
> Solid argument error. Repeat. Wakes included to Deflect bleeds
> or to Delay the votes. Not to thwart Perfectionist. Brace for
> impact. X-)

The weakness of Perfectionist is that it doesn't work if someone plays a
reaction card. Lots of decks use reaction cards (Wake being the the most
common and most obvious). It really isn't that unlikely that Perfectionist
will be foiled on a given action.


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

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In message <424ed7f3$0$22839$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-05.noos.net>, reyda
<true_reyda@hotmail.com> writes:
>James Coupe a écrit :

>the problem of bravo is : you have not to be blocked in your enter
>combat attempt. Sociopath is good since no matter who gets on the way,
>you gain one blood if you bruise him.

I think what Bravo is intended for is decks which rush with inherent
stealth that want to play other Masters too. That brings it down to
four major options:

- Haven Uncovered
- Contracts
- Archon/Templar vote-and-rushes
- Nose of the Hound

Now, Haven Uncovered is not usually the focus of a deck. It's good, but
the uber-weenie rush decks of old typically only included 4. The number
is usually low, anyway. This has the knock on effect that Bravo would
be harder to use.

Nose of the Hound is good, but at aus and spi you need a tapped minion.
Only when you get to SPI can it be used against any minion, which is
certainly costly as there are only three minions in the game with SPI.
So Nose of the Hound is one of those cards I tend to think of as being a
good and strong backup rush, but you want some other cards too.

Vote-and-rush is an extremely good and strong archetype, but very
difficult to play. It already has careful card flow issues, so
*another* card is awkward. Still, I'd consider tossing a couple in for
kicks.


Where I think it could be fun is in a deck like a Contract deck. You
have some extra versatile stealth (Swallowed by the Night) available if
you need it too, and you can go for Clandestine Contract and the like.
Even if you go for Contract, it's a Trifle, so less of an issue. A
Contract-Rush-Fame(-rescue-Rush-repeat) deck could be interesting with
it. And then you're not competing for master slots with the Fame, due
to it being Triflicious, but still getting some blood back for the
rescues, if you need it (i.e. they don't have the blood to use).


Now, the problem with all of this is that the decks using them are
harder to do well with to start with. :(


>> What's difficult is that I don't know if the fact that it's a Master
>> card works so well. Typically, you want a reasonable cycle of cards for
>> combat, so it could get in the way.
>
>Typically, in a Blood brother deck (where i think this card is a
>marvel) gaining blood is very important.

Oh, I think that Sociopath can be potentially very good. But it's a
more corner-case good. Meaning that it's probably much better than
Perfectionist when in the right deck, but it's just that those decks are
fewer.


>> What I think is a bigger problem is that you often have other masters
>> claiming space - intercept locations, Haven Uncovered, pool gain etc.
>> It'd generally be better as a trifle, which Sociopath isn't. :(
>
>In a deck that can also intercept, even a simple hunt action from your
>pred, it's still a free blood. Even if the hunting vamp was empty. It's
>in any case better than a hunting ground. Plus it encourages "proactive
>play" ;)

Oh, obviously, it can combo in fun ways like that. It's just that, say,
an Intercept deck will often have other masters it needs to play. As
will a lot of other decks. So if you have an intercept location in hand
and a Sociopath in hand, which do you want to play first? And there'll
be quite a few similar issues too, depending on what other masters you
have.

It's far from a bad card. It's just that, as a master, it's competing
with quite a few really strong cards.

--
James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/
 
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> The weakness of Perfectionist is that it doesn't work if someone plays a
> reaction card. Lots of decks use reaction cards (Wake being the the most
> common and most obvious). It really isn't that unlikely that Perfectionist
> will be foiled on a given action.

The problem is that all of the other "active" archetypes have almost the
same foils. Bravo requires the rush action to be successful (and let's
face it, a wake will often foil that too) and the combat to be
successful. Capitalist requires the bleed be successful AND that it be
successful against the original target (and if any reaction cards get
played they're either going to be intercept or bounce or reduction,
which may cause the capitalist effect to fail with a pretty high
frequency). Loner requires that the action be successful. Guru
requires the action be succesful and then the referendum be successful
(reaction cards being intercept or vote screw, both of which may cause
either to fail).

While Perfectionist does open itself up to the "random wake" failure,
that's generally not a sustainable thing for the table to keep up. And
it works on /every/ action AND it doesn't have a sect requirement. I
think those factors put it over every other action-based archetype by a
huge margin (possible exception being capitalist in an all-sabbat
sneak/bleed deck in a low-ish rush metagame where you won't need to be
hunting or rescuing as much).

All that said, I think it's more a testament to the fact that
Perfectionist is a phenomenal card and it's the other archetypes that
are just underpowered. I think it's the closest we're going to come to
Blood Doll in terms of universally useable common master cards for a
long time.

-Snapcase
 
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Snapcase wrote:

> The problem is that all of the other "active" archetypes have almost the
> same foils. Bravo requires the rush action to be successful (and let's
> face it, a wake will often foil that too) and the combat to be
> successful. Capitalist requires the bleed be successful AND that it be
> successful against the original target (and if any reaction cards get
> played they're either going to be intercept or bounce or reduction,
> which may cause the capitalist effect to fail with a pretty high
> frequency). Loner requires that the action be successful. Guru
> requires the action be succesful and then the referendum be successful
> (reaction cards being intercept or vote screw, both of which may cause
> either to fail).

Yes. I think it is clear that Perfectionist is the best Archtype out there.
This doesn't mean that Perfectionist is overpowered, 'cause it isn't. It
means that the other Archetypes are kinda weak, which they are. But as there
is a long standing strive to not errata cards that are too weak to make them
more powerful, it is likely that the rest of the less useful Archetypes will
remain less useful.

> All that said, I think it's more a testament to the fact that
> Perfectionist is a phenomenal card and it's the other archetypes that
> are just underpowered. I think it's the closest we're going to come to
> Blood Doll in terms of universally useable common master cards for a
> long time.

Sure. But I don't think it is actually that universally useful. I mean,
like, it is handy and all, but so are lots of other master cards.


Peter D Bakija
pdb6@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6

"How does this end?"
"In fire."
Emperor Turhan and Kosh
 
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In message <1112538552.245227.195410@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Emmit Svenson <emmitsvenson@hotmail.com> writes:
>Dissociative Personality
>Master: archetype. Put this card on a Malkavian you control. If this
>Malkavian successfully takes an action that does not change the pool
>total of any Methuselah or the blood total of any vampire, this
>Malkavian gains one blood. This card does not count against this
>Malkavian's limit of 1 archetype.

I'd prefer something along the lines of "Put this card on a vampire with
Dementation you control..." Or "Put this card on a ready Malkavian or
Malkavian Antitribu you control." Possibly either. Also, unless there
are cards to manipulate archetypes in some fashion, this one doesn't
actually *need* to be an archetype.


What I was thinking of was along the lines of below. This has three
different ideas - any two would possibly be cool. :)

<Some cool name about psychic surgery, introspection, personalities or
something>
+1 stealth action
1 blood
[dem] Search your library for a master: archetype card; reveal it to all
players and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library and discard
down to your hand size.
[aus dem] As [dem], but put the archetype you draw onto this acting
vampire instead. Pay the cost, if any. Skip your next master phase.
[AUS DEM] Put this card on the acting vampire. The vampire with this
card may have and benefit from two archetype cards, ignoring
restrictions on any archetype cards to the contrary.


--
James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/