[SOLVED] Please help diagnose power issue.

[Mashadaar]

Hello, I’ll try to keep it brief. During the end of a regular day of use, my computer suddenly went to sleep. Woke it up, logged in and resumed activity. After a few minutes it shut down completely. Restart, loaded OS and let it sit at desktop while I monitored temp. Quickly shut down again with nothing obvious occurring beforehand. Restart again and loses power before reaching OS. Restart and enter BIOS to monitor temp and voltage. Nothing unusual before another failure. Continued in this way until power was literally flickering between on and off. I suspected the PSU and tested it (paper clip, seemed to function normally) and RMA’d it.

Got the replacement, installed, no power. The power button LED on the motherboard was flickering every 5 secs, as were the lights on my desk powered by USB slot on motherboard. Sent email to EVGA asking about the condition of the unit I returned and if the replacement was tested in a system before it was sent to me. They say the unit I returned consistently failed when put under a system load. The other question wasn’t answered so I am basically back where I started. One odd thing, when I did the paper clip test with the replacement unit (same results as first tests) afterwards, light on motherboard is solid on now. shrugs Any ideas?

I don’t have access to a known working PSU or another system to test my replacement. I’m trying to get more information before I start buying parts and also need to be certain this replacement unit isn’t DoA.
Specs:

CPU - Intel Core i7-6700k 4 GHz Quad Core
CPU Cooler - Swifttech H220-x
Motherboard - Gigabyte GA Z170x Gaming G1 ATX LGA1151
Memory - 2X Corsair Vengeance LPX 8GB DDR4 3000 CL15
Storage - Samsung 950 PRO 512 GB M.2-2280 NVMe SSD
GPU - EVGA GeForce GTX 1070 Ti GAMING Hybrid
PSU - EVGA SuperNOVA P2 1000W Fully Modular ATX

Edit: Also worth noting the system is about 7 years old.

 

[Aeacus]

Either the replacement PSU is DOA, or your initial PSU fried MoBo as well, when it went out.

Try to get your hands on 2nd, known to work PSU (e.g Seasonic Focus+ in 650W range). If that also fails to power your PC, look towards new MoBo.

Now, it may not end with only MoBo being dead, since when PSU goes out, it has the magical ability to fry everything it is connected to. So, take this into consideration.

Best would be, if you can get your hands on 2nd, compatible system, where to test out each and every component you have.

 

[Mashadaar]

Woah, I hadn’t considered that possibility, and it certainly matches with the strange way the power failed. I didn’t mention this in my first post because I didn’t think it was relevant but I did 2 more rounds of testing after it initially failed. 2nd round was next day, the system was able to power on after remaining off and unplugged for the night and remained on for about an hour. Then previous pattern repeated where time between powering on and failing grew less and less. 3rd time was next day I took PSU out, cleaned it and put it back in. Couldn’t power on at all after that. I may have even fried the other components myself by doing all that testing with a malfunctioning PSU.

Well… guess we’ll see. I ordered a Corsair 650 yesterday, so when it get’s here, should be able to narrow things down a bit. Until then I guess I’ll check everything else. Heard it could be the power or reset buttons. Then I guess it’s unplug everything and add back one at a time. Anything you would add to that?

Thanks for the reply. And Deus Ex avatar, NICE!

 

[scout_03]

when system goes on does it show real time or a error in time and date on the post .

 

[Aeacus]

I ordered a Corsair 650 yesterday

What model? Since Corsair sells PSUs from crap quality to all they way to the great quality.

I may have even fried the other components myself by doing all that testing with a malfunctioning PSU.

This is, a possibility, yes.

Heard it could be the power or reset buttons.

Unless you have power or reset button wires expose and causing a short**, i don't think these would be an issue.

** - short, as in completing a circuit. Reset and power switches are simple, 2 wire switches, that close the circuit between two pins on a MoBo. If both wires would be exposed and touch, it would act exactly as the button itself would've been pressed.

You can remove the front connectors from MoBo and bridging the power + and - pins with screwdriver. It acts exactly like you would've pressed the connected power button.
And to know which pins are power + and -, read holy bible of PCs (aka MoBo manual).

And Deus Ex avatar, NICE!

Thanks.
Not many notice it though.

 

[Mashadaar]

when system goes on does it show real time or a error in time and date on the post .

Neither, it’s not coming on at all.


It’s not looking good. I tested both the power and reset, nothing. Removed GPU, nothing. Pulled everything but CPU, still nothing.

I ordered a CORSAIR RMx Series RM650x PSU to serve as a test unit and to be certain the replacement unit wasn’t DOA. Guess I don’t have anything else to try until then.

I read somewhere that a dead CMOS battery could be a thing. Should I try replacing it?

 

[Aeacus]

I ordered a CORSAIR RMx Series RM650x PSU

It's a good quality PSU with nice 10 years of warranty. Now, if you would've ordered CV or CX series, then it would've been an issue, since those are poor PSUs.

I read somewhere that a dead CMOS battery could be a thing.

CMOS battery is there to keep user defined settings in BIOS. Without it, BIOS settings would revert back to factory default every time and system time wouldn't be kept either. Due to this, i don't think it would be an issue, but it doesn't hurt to try and replace it.

 

[Mashadaar]

Well, got the new PSU and nothing, so I guess that settles that… I believe you were right about PSU damaging other components, Aeacus. I guess this is a cautionary tale for anyone who thinks they may PSU malfunction. Take it out!

I guess the question now is what do I try replacing first? Man, this whole thing is disheartening… I honestly just might buy a full system. 💩

 

[Aeacus]

I believe you were right about PSU damaging other components, Aeacus. I guess this is a cautionary tale for anyone who thinks they may PSU malfunction. Take it out!

Yes, it is common that when PSU goes sky high, it can fry everything it is connected to, e.g by feeding way too much voltage to very sensitive components. Sadly, not many people believe that, until this has happened with them personally.

I guess the question now is what do I try replacing first?

Here, you have a choice:

1. Get another Z170 or Z270 chipset MoBo.
2. Or go with new CPU-MoBo combo.

Former is viable when you can find relatively old MoBo at a good price. Latter is viable to get better performance of what the old MoBo may cost.

Now, i7-6700K is good CPU (i'm running i5-6600K myself) and to me, CPU upgrade is viable when average performance gain is 20% or more. With this, you can look towards i5-11600K,
comparison: https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i7-6700K-vs-Intel-Core-i5-11600K/3502vs4113

Now, there is 12th gen also out but those mostly use very expensive DDR5 RAM and to me, buying overpriced RAM isn't viable. So, 11th gen CPU is good enough, especially since if your RAM survived, you can reuse it.

E.g this combo:

PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: Intel Core i5-11600K 3.9 GHz 6-Core Processor ($199.99 @ Newegg)
CPU Cooler: Swiftech H220-X 55 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler (Purchased For $0.00)
Motherboard: MSI Z590 PRO WIFI ATX LGA1200 Motherboard ($199.99 @ Best Buy)
Total: $399.98

Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2022-03-31 07:56 EDT-0400

Since i5-11600K doesn't come with CPU cooler, i added the CPU cooler you already have to the listing, with "already purchased" tag, so that pcpp doesn't show errors when you view it. I looked it up, and you can use your AIO with new CPU-MoBo combo just fine, since it also supports LGA1200 socket.

Man, this whole thing is disheartening… I honestly just might buy a full system. 💩

Yes, it is devastating when PSU acts up and kills components. While EVGA SuperNova P2 1kW is great quality PSU (using Super Flower Leadex Platinum platform), there are lemons, even among the best. Though, i'm unsure if the age of PSU, 7 years, would've played a role, since it has 10 years of warranty.

In any event, you can get away with only new CPU-MoBo combo, if your RAM survived. Also, you have new PSU and you can easily reuse your PC case. CPU cooler, case fans and data drives should be okay too. Though, do note that going with new CPU-MoBo combo would requite clean Win install. Clean Win install is even then required when you go with Z170 or Z270 chipset MoBo. You don't need to reinstall your OS if you get the same exact MoBo as you already have.

So, all-in-all, you can get away with spending less money compared to buying a whole new build.

Edit:
One more thing.

It is possible, that it wasn't your PSU's fault, but instead the main electricity grid. E.g when there was a power surge, or brownout, or even blackout <- all that is enough to kill the PSU, which in turn, can kill other components. Due to this, IMO, every PC should be backed up by an UPS.

My two main builds (Skylake and Haswell, full specs with pics in my sig), are backed up by UPSes, one for each PC. I have line-interactive, true/pure sine wave UPSes in use and thus far, UPSes have saved us on countess of times. Also, to me, last straw was when blackout caused me to loose 2 hours worth of work. So, i went out and got UPSes.

You may also look towards UPS, to safeguard your PC.

 

[Mashadaar]

That’s a very compelling breakdown, you’ve convinced me. Thanks for taking the time to do it. I can’t really justify not going for an upgrade, looking at this. Even if I could find the exact same board, it would cost as much as the combo in your example. Current board had a lot of bells and whistles I never ended up doing anything with so something more adequate for what I use for less is good, especially if I get a CPU upgrade for the same price. It might be a little tight in the case though, two separate water cooling systems made EATX seem regular size.

Unless you feel there are better components at this price I could use, rather than those in your example, I’m going to go ahead and buy them.

EDIT: And yeah, if a UPS will help to prevent a similar travesty in the future, I’m definitely adding one to my setup.

 

[Aeacus]

Unless you feel there are better components at this price I could use

You're free to choose any 500-series MoBo. I just put in Z590 chipset, since only Z-series allows for CPU OC and personally, i prefer MSI. Though Asus is also good. Oh, i also put in MoBo that has wi-fi capability, since this is quite a norm today (i, personally, have cable connection and don't care about on-board wi-fi).

Oh, with MoBo, don't get the cheapest, since cheap MoBos have poor VRMs (including VRM cooling), that may come back and bite you from behind, once you decide to go ahead with CPU OC. All-in-all, MoBo is picked by the features it has (e.g on-board wi-fi, RGB headers) and aesthetics. Oh, price too.

And yeah, if a UPS will help to prevent a similar travesty in the future, I’m definitely adding one to my setup.

Now, picking an UPS is one complex process.

When looking for an UPS, there are 2 things to look out:

1. Output waveform (square wave, simulated sine wave and true/pure sine wave)
2. Design (stand-by, line-interactive and online)

From here you can read about the differences between output waveform,
link: https://www.kstar.com/indexproblem/17355.jhtml

And here are explanations about the UPS design,
link: https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1272971

Waveform and design
For PCs, line-interactive UPS would be more than enough since PSUs can easily handle the 2ms to 5ms transfer time of line-interactive UPS.
As far as output waveform goes, true/pure sine wave UPS is best used. While simulated sine wave UPSes are cheaper than true/pure sine wave UPSes, PSUs with Active PFC aren't compatible with simulated sine wave. You might get simulated sine wave UPS running with Active PFC PSU but there can be some major issues. Here's what, how and why.

How do you know which PSUs have Active PFC and which ones don't?
Simple, every PSU that has 80+ certification (e.g 80+ Bronze or 80+ Gold) has Active PFC.

What is Active PFC?
Further reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor#Power_factor_correction_(PFC)_in_non-linear_loads

What can happen when using simulated sine wave UPS with Active PFC PSU?
When simulated sine wave UPS switches over to the battery power, one of 3 things can happen:

1. UPS displays error resulting PC to shut down immediately.
2. UPS shuts down resulting PC to shut down immediately.
3. UPS switches to battery power resulting PC to power off from UPS (PC stays on).

Why it happens?
Simulated sine wave UPS produces a zero output state during the phase change cycle resulting in a power “gap”. This gap may cause power interruption for active PFC PSUs when switching from AC power output to simulated sine wave output (battery mode).

What to do next?
As stated above, your PC can run off from simulated sine wave UPS but be prepared when you face issues with it. When issues do rise, your best bet would be returning the simulated sine wave UPS and getting true/pure sine wave UPS. Or you can go with true/pure sine wave UPS off the bat.

Wattage
As far as UPS wattage goes, you need to consider the power draw of your PC and monitors. Maybe speakers and wi-fi router too if you plan to plug those into the UPS as well. Though, printers, scanners and other such hardware (full list on your UPS manual) don't plug to the UPS since their startup power draw is way too much for UPS to handle and you can fry your UPS.

Taking PSU's max wattage as a baseline is good idea since it will give your UPS more headroom and you can get longer runtime out of your UPS. Since your PSU is 650W, at least one monitor is added on top of it. Depending on the monitor size, they use between 23W to 52W. For more accurate power consumption, i need to know your monitor make and model so i can look up it's power consumption. Wi-fi routers don't consume much power. For example, my Cisco EPC3940L consumes 12V at 3A which means 36W.

Good UPS brands to go for are CyberPower, TrippLite and APC. While there are other UPS brands as well, those three are the best out there.
Note: The more powerful UPS you have, the longer UPS can keep your PC running before it's battery is empty.

To suggest an UPS for you, i need to know your monitor make & model (or part number) + any other piece of hardware make & model you're planning to plug into UPS. Also, i need to know your location (e.g USA, Germany, Italy, Australia etc) so i can suggest UPS with correct power sockets.

---

Like i said, i have UPSes in use. Mine are 1300VA/780W units, line-interactive, true/pure sine wave; CyberPower CP1300EPFCLCD,
specs: https://www.cyberpower.com/hk/en/product/sku/CP1300EPFCLCD

If you live in Europe (with Schuko power sockets), you could get the very same UPS as i have. I too have 650W PSUs in either of my PCs, and runtime i get, at full load is ~10mins, while at normal load (web browsing), runtime is ~30mins. <- This is more than ample time to end what we're doing and safely shut down our PCs.

 

[Mashadaar]

With compatibility in mind and a few filters I’ve narrowed it down to 7 motherboards. Here is the list: https://pcpartpicker.com/products/motherboard/#R=5,4&f=2,3&V=8000,6000&c=148

Yes, I do need WiFi, the router is on the other side of the house. I’m in U.S. and here is a list of my components as of now: https://pcpartpicker.com/user/Mashadaar/saved/8dbpK8

I don’t have much experience with different brands, this build is the only one I’ve ever done and it lasted for 7 years with minimal maintenance. Result being I have forgotten almost everything I learned in order to make good build decisions. So definitely willing to follow recommendations on components😆

Wow, I didn’t realize UPS was so involved. From what you’ve described, I don’t see any reason to go with a UPS using simulated sine. Cost isn’t REALLY an issue for me. I’m willing to spend what things cost to get the best value, especially when it comes to safeguarding my investment. Not to say that I want top of the line either, law of diminishing returns is forreal. 😆

 

[Aeacus]

With compatibility in mind and a few filters I’ve narrowed it down to 7 motherboards. Here is the list: https://pcpartpicker.com/products/motherboard/#R=5,4&f=2,3&V=8000,6000&c=148

The link you gave, shows me actually 13 MoBos.

Regarding MoBo choice, and if you want best performance, then Asus ROG Maximus XIII Hero is best Z570 chipset MoBo, according to Tom's Hardware,
Best MoBos: https://www.tomshardware.com/best-picks/best-motherboards
Asus ROG Maximus XIII Hero review: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/asus-maximus-xiii-hero-review

Only bad thing about it, is high price (400 bucks), but it has plethora of other stuff, perhaps even more than you need. This MoBo is also within the specs you linked above.

But personally, i'd go with Asus ROG STRIX Z590-E GAMING WIFI,
review: https://www.overclockers.com/asus-rog-strix-z590-e-gaming-wifi-motherboard-review/

It costs 100 bucks less and based on the review above, it has equal performance to Asus ROG Maximus XIII Hero. Choice would come down to the features (if any), the more expensive MoBo offers, to justify the price difference.

Not to say that I want top of the line either, law of diminishing returns is forreal. 😆

In UPS world, top-of-the-line would be online UPS, since that is pinnacle of UPS designs. But for home user, line-interactive is both wallet friendly and gets the job done as well.

Checked your build and the max power draw of your PC is ~400W, with CPU/GPU OC ~500W @ 100% load. Still, taking PSU's max wattage as a baseline is good, since this also covers power spikes GPU may do. And your monitor, at max, consumes 90W. With this, you can look towards 1200VA/740W UPS.

E.g CyberPower OR1000PFCLCD (1000VA/700W),
specs: https://www.cyberpowersystems.com/product/ups/pfc-sinewave/or1000pfclcd/
amazon: https://www.amazon.com/CyberPower-OR1000PFCLCD-Sinewave-Outlets-Mini-Tower/dp/B00YO0ZMM8/

Or CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD (1500VA/1000W),
specs: https://www.cyberpowersystems.com/product/ups/pfc-sinewave/cp1500pfclcd/
amazon: https://www.amazon.com/CyberPower-CP1500PFCLCD-Sinewave-Outlets-Mini-Tower/dp/B00429N19W

Both UPSes are line-interactive, true/pure sine wave.

Oh, i also just noticed, that at the time of me writing this reply, the more powerful UPS is ~70 bucks cheaper than weaker/smaller UPS. Go figure.

Result being I have forgotten almost everything I learned in order to make good build decisions.

I don't know the best of the best hardware either. Instead, i know which brands ones are good and which are best to avoid. Still, when it comes down to individual components, best to read reviews about them. That's what i do when i'm out buying new hardware to my PCs.

E.g i recently bought Samsung 980 1TB for my Haswell build, as an OS drive. Now, my main build, Skylake, also needed new OS drive, since old OS drive (Samsung 960 Evo 500GB) was getting full and i needed more space. I could've gone with Samsung 980 Pro 2TB, but that is way too expensive and it turned out that Samsung 970 Evo Plus 2TB, has very good price to performance ratio (after reading drive reviews of course). So, i got myself 970 Evo Plus 2TB instead.

Oh, in M.2 NVMe SSD market, #1 choice would be Samsung and #2 would be Western Digital (WD). Other brand M.2 NVMe SSDs are best to be avoided, since those are plagued by reliability issues, or running hot, or overpriced etc.

 

[Mashadaar]

Went ahead and pulled the trigger on CPU and motherboard. Got the i5-11600K and Asus ROG STRIX Z590-E GAMING WIFI. Definitely like the board aesthetic and looks about right on the features. Also really like having a code display on the board itself for potential troubleshooting. Helped having that on my last one.

So, I still have the replacement PSU EVGA sent me and I assume it is functional. I know it’s more than I need, thought I might run multiple GPU and extend liquid cooling loop but never did.

Any reason I should use it instead of the Corsair and would that influence the choice of UPS?

 

[Aeacus]

Any reason I should use it instead of the Corsair

One reason would be PSU's efficiency. 80+ Platinum is more efficient than 80+ Gold and better efficiency means that you'll get longer runtime out of your UPS. This is also one of the reasons, why i've bought 80+ Titanium PSUs for my 2 main builds, to get as much runtime out of the UPS as possible, while keeping electricity bill low, and also reducing the excess heat PSUs produce due to their inefficiency.

Efficiency works like so;
Let's say your PC needs 400W of power and PSU's efficiency is 85% (80+ Bronze).
Now, PSU will deliver 400W to components, but due to it's low efficiency, it will pull 460W from the wall and the extra 60W is wasted as excess heat.

Same example but where PSU's efficiency is 96% (80+ Titanium);
Components still get 400W but PSU will draw from the wall 416W, while wasting only 16W as excess heat.

80+ standard, wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/80_Plus

Now, PSUs are most efficient when the load on them, is 50-80% of their max rated wattage. Below or above that has diminishing returns.

For a 1kW 80+ Platinum unit, and to get it run the most efficient, at 94%, load on PSU should be 500-800W. Your PC, consumes ~400W at max load, while normal load would be ~250W or so. It's a bit less to have 1kW unit in there.

Now, 650W 80+ Gold, has highest efficiency of 92% and 325-520W load. This falls better in line with what your PC consumes, as of right now.

would that influence the choice of UPS?

If you're getting 1500VA/1000W UPS, then it doesn't matter which PSU you'd use.

For bare minimum, always keep at least 100W headroom towards PSU's max wattage. While 200W headroom is preferred. Meaning that when you have 650W unit, and your PC, after upgrade, is about to consume 600W, it's better to buy more powerful PSU as well.

With headroom in consideration, your 90W monitor fits into the headroom and won't overload 1500VA/1000W UPS, when you are using 1kW PSU.

 

[Mashadaar]

And DONE! Bought UPS, now just waiting for everything to get here. I guess this is it. I can’t think of any more questions.

I posted OP on 5 different forums and by far received the most comprehensive and helpful advice from you. I was ready to give up and just throw money at the problem until you explained the alternatives in detail. That is to say THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR HELP!!! I was really disheartened for a time.

So now what, how do I mark this solved, or is that something the moderators do?

 

[Satan-IR]

Click the trophy icon next to the reply you want to choose as Best Answer.

 

[Aeacus]

I posted OP on 5 different forums and by far received the most comprehensive and helpful advice from you. I was ready to give up and just throw money at the problem until you explained the alternatives in detail. That is to say THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR HELP!!! I was really disheartened for a time.

You're welcome.

With PC hardware, and without knowing, yes, you could spend loads of money to fix an issue. But to help out common folk, we have sites like Tom's Hardware and experts within it, known as Ambassadors, to help people out.
(We used to have "Herald" tag but i guess some didn't like the implication, whereby Herald could be used as: "herding the sheep", so, it was changed to "Ambassador", to be more politically correct.)

Oh, Satan-IR explained how to make topic "Solved".