News Pocket-size PC doesn't need a power plug — Minisforum S100 rocks Alder Lake-N CPU, 2.5GbE networking, and PoE support

[Admin]

Minisforum has launched the ultra-thin S100 mini-PC, which the brand showed off at CES this year.

Pocket-size PC doesn't need a power plug — Minisforum S100 rocks Alder Lake-N CPU, 2.5GbE networking, and PoE support : Read more

 

[King_V]

Not gonna lie, I really like the idea of this.

 

[TechLurker]

For one shining moment, I thought this was a micro-PC bolted to a battery bank, enabling it to be a compact workstation if paired with a small USB-C screen, keyboard, and mouse. The fact it's not has dampened my enthusiasm, although I still like the fact it's very compact.

 

[thisisaname]

Could plug some more storage into one of the USB ports.

 

[bit_user]

The N100 is a 6W quad-core chip without HyperThreading that features a boost clock speed up to 3.4 GHz.

The default PL2 of the N100 is 25 W, and that's just SoC package power. PoE+ maxes out at 30 W, so its wings would have to be clipped a fair bit.

In my experience, there's a big discrepancy between the reported package power and the wall power. On my N97, I've noticed power at the wall going as high as 54 W, in iGPU-heavy benchmarks, yet the reported package power doesn't go above 17 W! That's not touching storage, and it's got a SK Hynix P31 Gold, which is very efficient and has a low idle draw. Nothing else plugged in, except HDMI (1080p60 monitor) and gigabit Ethernet + mouse & keyboard. The PSU is an 89% efficient 60W Seasonic 12V unit. It has one fan that's rated at < 1 W. Idle power is 8W at the wall, 2W reported package power.

The cooling system comprises a small fan attached to a corresponding heatsink. According to the vendor, the noise level at idle is around 24dB, but will peak at 43dB under full load.

Maybe, but the noise profile on that fan is going to be very whiny.

Due to the S100's compact size, there isn't an upgradeable storage option. You'll have to settle for 256GB of UFS 2.1 storage. UFS 2.1 is rated with maximum sequential read and write speeds up to 850 MB/s and 260 MB/s, respectively. While it's certainly faster than your standard hard drive, it's nowhere near a PCIe 3.0 SSD. That's the compromise of having a tiny device, as there is no room for an NVMe drive.

You mean there's no room for a M.2 drive. You can have NVMe storage that's soldered down! They just went the cheap route and used eMMC, I gather.

The latter can also power your USB-C monitors, as it provides up to 65W

I guess PoE++ could get you up to 100 W, total. As I said above, PoE+ only gets you up to 30 W.

 

[bit_user]

For one shining moment, I thought this was a micro-PC bolted to a battery bank, enabling it to be a compact workstation if paired with a small USB-C screen, keyboard, and mouse.

Just get a Chromebook-class laptop and hook it up to an external monitor, keyboard, and mouse. They're available with the same SoCs, have the battery pack you want, and most should have a better-engineered cooling solution. Probably faster storage, as well.

 

[bit_user]

Not gonna lie, I really like the idea of this.

It's clearly made for commercial applications, where someone already has PoE installed (e.g. for point-of-sale terminals or surveillance cameras). I'm betting a fair number will get installed in drop ceilings, in spite of probably not being plenum-rated.

 

[funguseater]

"Pocket Sized PC doesn't need power plug"..... The S100's scope of delivery includes a power adapter, a power cable, an HDMI cable, and the instruction manual. LOL

 

[bit_user]

"Pocket Sized PC doesn't need power plug"..... The S100's scope of delivery includes a power adapter, a power cable, an HDMI cable, and the instruction manual. LOL

Well-spotted.

I've seen other PoE-powered stuff that includes a power adapter, for good measure. I guess they assume it's compelling even to people who don't require the PoE feature.

If you're purchasing in bulk, I'd assume you can negotiate for them to leave out the power adapter.

 

[TechLurker]

Just get a Chromebook-class laptop and hook it up to an external monitor, keyboard, and mouse. They're available with the same SoCs, have the battery pack you want, and most should have a better-engineered cooling solution. Probably faster storage, as well.

Eh, that still increases the real-estate vs the rather typical powerbank footprint. I was imagining something more like those tiny PC boxes used either for workstations, PoS, or atypical on-the-go setups where one could have it wired to a tablet operating in monitor mode (or just a portable monitor), and a wireless KB on one's lap or in a better position other than in front of the screen, for whatever task such a unit was needed for.

But I see your point; the best option is still a regular laptop and just living with the minor inconveniences.

 

[thestryker]

I've liked the idea of something small like this for HTPC type usage, but at the end of the day PC UHD disc playback was killed so there's no need for one anymore. I'd also be far more tempted if the case was slightly larger and they'd opted for heatpipes sunk into the case for cooling.

Perhaps when LNL gets superceded we'll see some creative small builds come. Something that was balanced and could play some games as well as media playback is something I could trick myself into.

 

[usertests]

You mean there's no room for a M.2 drive. You can have NVMe storage that's soldered down! They just went the cheap route and used eMMC, I gather.

Minisforum S100 = 5.98 x 2.28 x 0.77 inches (152 x 58 x 19.5mm).

MeLE Quieter4C gets M.2 2280, with dimensions of 131 x 81 x 18.3mm. That's about 20% larger not counting the height, and less stick-like.

MeLE PCG02 Pro (N100) is 146 x 61 x 20mm, also using eMMC with no M.2, in part because of a larger cooling solution for the N100. However, a previous model using the J4125 could fit an M.2 2280, despite having the same dimensions. But an N5105 (Jasper Lake) model was also limited to eMMC.

So it becomes a question of: "What do I really need out of these tiny mini PCs?" Because the Quieter4C is not particularly gigantic.

Depending on your pocket size, you may have an easier time fitting the larger, wider one in your pants than the PC stick!

Sources:

MeLE PCG02 Pro ultra slim fanless mini PC gets an Intel Processor N100 upgrade - CNX Software

The MeLE PCG02 Pro "mini PC stick" is now available with an Intel Processor N100 Alder Lake-N CPU after being first introduced with an Intel Celeron J4125

www.cnx-software.com

MeLE PCG02 Pro mini PC stick supports M.2 NVMe or SATA SSD - CNX Software

MeLE PCG02 Pro is a mini PC stick / PC-on-a-stick powered by either an Intel Celeron J4125 Gemini Lake processor or a more recent Celeron N5105 Jasper

www.cnx-software.com

I've liked the idea of something small like this for HTPC type usage, but at the end of the day PC UHD disc playback was killed so there's no need for one anymore. I'd also be far more tempted if the case was slightly larger and they'd opted for heatpipes sunk into the case for cooling.

I'm at the point where I want every TV I use to have an HTPC that I control. I have a much larger i3-10105 system with a DVD drive, but what I actually care about is streaming from YouTube and other websites, etc. A stick like this would work, and the N100 is a capable enough chip and gets AV1 decode. But I'm not picky about the dimensions, so just about any mini PC would do.

As for Lunar Lake, it sounds like it could have an absurd iGPU increase from Xe2-LPG, possibly making it faster than the top Meteor Lake-H and AMD Phoenix/Hawk. In which case it would certainly be a viable choice for 1080p gaming.

 

[thestryker]

I'm at the point where I want every TV I use to have an HTPC that I control. I have a much larger i3-10105 system with a DVD drive, but what I actually care about is streaming from YouTube and other websites, etc. A stick like this would work, and the N100 is a capable enough chip and gets AV1 decode. But I'm not picky about the dimensions, so just about any mini PC would do.

All of our TVs can access everything we use natively so that isn't really a concern. I have an xbox one s and series x for UHD disc playback and call it good as there's no reason to really have anything else. I always find it interesting that the nvidia shield tv is still one of the best streaming boxes and it puts me off that entire market.

As for Lunar Lake, it sounds like it could have an absurd iGPU increase from Xe2-LPG, possibly making it faster than the top Meteor Lake-H and AMD Phoenix/Hawk. In which case it would certainly be a viable choice for 1080p gaming.

Yeah that's why I hope we'll see some creative sized LNL builds after it's on the way out. When new models land is usually when we start seeing random minipcs/boards that are well priced appear.

 

[bit_user]

PC UHD disc playback was killed

Wow, I hadn't heard that!

I'd also be far more tempted if the case was slightly larger and they'd opted for heatpipes sunk into the case for cooling.

Yes, I'm concerned their cooling solution might leave room for improvement.

Perhaps when LNL gets superceded we'll see some creative small builds come.

Let's see Meteor Lake-N! Crestmont is said to have better IPC than Gracemont and Intel 4 should help improve power-efficiency. Unfortunately, I think we might have to wait for Arrow Lake or Panther Lake, because Intel 4 is said to be an incomplete node (hey, but what about Horse Creek?) and I'm not sure it'll be profitable enough for them to make such a low-end tile-based product.

 

[bit_user]

I'm at the point where I want every TV I use to have an HTPC that I control. ... what I actually care about is streaming from YouTube and other websites, etc. A stick like this would work, and the N100 is a capable enough chip and gets AV1 decode. But I'm not picky about the dimensions, so just about any mini PC would do.

I think the cooling fan in this one might annoy you.

I use an old i3-based laptop as a HTPC, FWIW. My PS3 can also play some older media I have. I heard they removed some of the media playback capabilities in the PS4 and beyond.

As for Lunar Lake, it sounds like it could have an absurd iGPU increase ... In which case it would certainly be a viable choice for 1080p gaming.

Well, until we start seeing mainstream SoCs that follow Apple's lead of using a > 128-bit DRAM datapath, iGPUs will always be at a disadvantage.

When it comes to iGPUs, one advantage Intel has is an incredibly strong track record of support. In the past, AMD has really fallen down on maintaining support for their iGPUs and that's something I absolutely won't tolerate, especially in a machine where I can't swap out the GPU.

 

[thestryker]

Wow, I hadn't heard that!

Playback could only be done on Windows 10 with Intel SGX and Intel deprecated it after 10th Gen and every software maker who had been doing legal playback stopped updating/making playback software. So basically you'd have to be using 7th-10th gen Intel on Windows 10 with software that hasn't been updated in years and hope encryption hadn't changed.

You can circumvent these requirements, but there isn't a simple way to just buy a disc, pop it in a drive and have it play immediately every time. At that point if I have to jump through hoops just to play a disc it's not worth the effort.

Here's a Tom's article on how ADL didn't have SGX: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/alder-lake-systems-arent-able-to-play-uhd-blu-rays

 

[AlskiOnTheWeb]

"doesn't need a power plug" ... really? Maybe not a standard one ... but the fact that power is still delivered over a plug in the form of an ethernet cable ... well it just means it draws low power. It's still tethered to something. Seems like a silly clickbait title.

 

[usertests]

Let's see Meteor Lake-N! Crestmont is said to have better IPC than Gracemont and Intel 4 should help improve power-efficiency. Unfortunately, I think we might have to wait for Arrow Lake or Panther Lake, because Intel 4 is said to be an incomplete node (hey, but what about Horse Creek?) and I'm not sure it'll be profitable enough for them to make such a low-end tile-based product.

Last I heard, Alder Lake-N gets refreshed (Twin Lake). No new core. Also, the Crestmont IPC increase is small, around 3-4% over Gracemont. Intel can make an Alder Lake-N refresh better by making a 6-core or selling 8-cores cheaper and in higher volume than the 50% disabled quad-cores. Maybe it's time to drop the "Core i3" from the N30x? They're doing it everywhere else.

I actually want to see Intel move to include 1-2 big cores in their cheapest, low TDP lineups like this, but maybe OEMs are demanding E-cores-only for compatibility reasons.

This is a tangent, but what's stopping Intel from copying AMD's "C" core approach and making a miniaturized P-core with lower clocks/cache? Then they could pick and choose from P-core, E-core, LPE-core, and... SP-core? And we heard about a supersized P-core so there's 5 types.

I hope that the use of "tiles" could eventually result in cheaper low-end products. Even the memory-on-package move with Lunar Lake is likely a cost-cutting measure that saves some board space.

Well, until we start seeing mainstream SoCs that follow Apple's lead of using a > 128-bit DRAM datapath, iGPUs will always be at a disadvantage.

Yeah, but the targets aren't moving very fast. Mainstream iGPUs are viable for 1080p60 and getting better faster than the rate at which games need additional performance, even when stuck with 128-bit. LPDDR6 on the horizon may help.

Obviously, we want more 256-bit. Strix Halo will give everyone a taste of that. But I'd also like to see consumer platforms like AM6 move to quad-channel memory. Even if every board got stuck with 1 DIMM per channel, it would be great for desktop APUs.

When it comes to iGPUs, one advantage Intel has is an incredibly strong track record of support. In the past, AMD has really fallen down on maintaining support for their iGPUs and that's something I absolutely won't tolerate, especially in a machine where I can't swap out the GPU.

Are you talking about how well drivers work, or the support lifetime? Recently, AMD made it seem like they were dropping Vega iGPU support despite selling "new" ones, but I think that was just very poorly communicated information on their part.

 

[bit_user]

Last I heard, Alder Lake-N gets refreshed (Twin Lake). No new core.

Let's hope it's at least the version of the Gracemont clusters that showed up in Raptor Lake, with double the L2 cache. Is it also the Raptor Lake version of the Intel 7 node?

I actually want to see Intel move to include 1-2 big cores in their cheapest, low TDP lineups like this, but maybe OEMs are demanding E-cores-only for compatibility reasons.

2P + 8E is literally what the U-series dies are. They even sell some low-end ones with a P core disabled, yielding a 1P + 4E config.

Unfortunately, those dies also have a larger-than-usual iGPU, together perhaps making them probably a fair bit more expensive than the Alder Lake-N dies.

This is a tangent, but what's stopping Intel from copying AMD's "C" core approach and making a miniaturized P-core with lower clocks/cache?

I'd guess one reason not to is the reason Golden Cove is so big. I think a lot of the structures (reorder buffer, register file, load/store queues, etc.) are designed for scaling to higher clock speeds. I guess, if you scaled those back at the same time, then sure. But, that's a lot of work to do and addresses what market, exactly? It's still not going to be as efficient as if you devoted the same area to E-cores.

I'd also like to see consumer platforms like AM6 move to quad-channel memory. Even if every board got stuck with 1 DIMM per channel, it would be great for desktop APUs.

I think on package memory + expansion via CXL will probably go mainstream, within the next 5 years. Not sure who will do it first.

 

[usertests]

Let's hope it's at least the version of the Gracemont clusters that showed up in Raptor Lake, with double the L2 cache. Is it also the Raptor Lake version of the Intel 7 node?

I'm locking in my prediction of literally the same silicon for the next "iteration". Which is not too unusual, see Gemini Lake + Refresh (Goldmont Plus).

2P + 8E is literally what the U-series dies are. They even sell some low-end ones with a P core disabled, yielding a 1P + 4E config.

Unfortunately, those dies also have a larger-than-usual iGPU, together perhaps making them probably a fair bit more expensive than the Alder Lake-N dies.

Before Alder Lake-N came out, I wanted it to be a 1+4 die. Instead it's 0+8 with the majority being sold as disabled 4-cores. I just wonder about the future of Atom lineups. Maybe it's better if it ends up getting cannibalized by something made of tiles, which could solve the large iGPU problem (see Meteor Lake-U's half-sized iGPU tile).

But, that's a lot of work to do and addresses what market, exactly? It's still not going to be as efficient as if you devoted the same area to E-cores.

My cope here is that maybe it's not so much work, and it makes putting a P-core in some smaller dies more viable.

3 core types are official: P-core, E-core, and the LP E-core. A fourth type was leaked (with lower confidence) by MLID last year: an extra big P-core for "Beast Lake". It could be compared to how ARM's Cortex-Xn is a bloated version of the Cortex-A7n cores, but they are both similar.

Intel is clearly experimenting with granularity in core types.

I think on package memory + expansion via CXL will probably go mainstream, within the next 5 years. Not sure who will do it first.

On-package memory must be the future for CPUs/APUs, and giving an option for external expansion is a good idea. For consumer adoption of CXL in the future, do you expect DRAM to be added to a PCIe slot instead of DIMMs? Might happen after the DDR6 generation, so probably more than 5 years (for the CXL part).

 

[thestryker]

I actually want to see Intel move to include 1-2 big cores in their cheapest, low TDP lineups like this, but maybe OEMs are demanding E-cores-only for compatibility reasons.

This is the chip that appears in a handful of the boxes out of China and technically tray price is cheaper than the N3xx: https://ark.intel.com/content/www/u...d-processor-8505-8m-cache-up-to-4-40-ghz.html

 

[usertests]

This is the chip that appears in a handful of the boxes out of China and technically tray price is cheaper than the N3xx: https://ark.intel.com/content/www/u...d-processor-8505-8m-cache-up-to-4-40-ghz.html

It has turbo (the Celeron 7305 doesn't, apparently limited to 1.1 GHz), 50% larger iGPU than the i3-N305, +2 MB L3 cache, and only slightly lower multi-threading performance than the N305, while having a massive single-threading advantage from the P-core. It also has dual-channel memory, Alder Lake-N is limited to single-channel.

Intel Processor U300 is the new version.

AFAICT, there hasn't been much adoption of the 1+4 chips, and that's not good for pricing.

 

[thestryker]

It has turbo (the Celeron 7305 doesn't, apparently limited to 1.1 GHz), 50% larger iGPU than the i3-N305, +2 MB L3 cache, and only slightly lower multi-threading performance than the N305, while having a massive single-threading advantage from the P-core. It also has dual-channel memory, Alder Lake-N is limited to single-channel.

Intel Processor U300 is the new version.

AFAICT, there hasn't been much adoption of the 1+4 chips, and that's not good for pricing.

I haven't seen the 1+4 outside of these types of boxes (and they're always DDR4), but they're generally all in the same price range:
N305
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805755765787.html
8505:
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805048935392.html
U300:
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256806426087049.html

 

[bit_user]

I'm locking in my prediction of literally the same silicon for the next "iteration". Which is not too unusual, see Gemini Lake + Refresh (Goldmont Plus).

Heh, I have both a Haswell Refresh CPU and a Gemini Lake Refresh.

A fourth type was leaked (with lower confidence) by MLID last year[/URL]: an extra big P-core for "Beast Lake". It could be compared to how ARM's Cortex-Xn is a bloated version of the Cortex-A7n cores, but they are both similar.

Yeah, that's pretty nuts, as if Golden Cove wasn't already beastly enough! Anyway, I'd say they already do have a P+ core, which is the version of Golden Cove found in Sapphire Rapids and Emerald Rapids.

I've found it interesting how the X-series cores basically just lead to core inflation, where the A7xx cores would get paired with them as the E-cores, instead of their normal role as the P-cores!

For consumer adoption of CXL in the future, do you expect DRAM to be added to a PCIe slot instead of DIMMs?

Yes, especially if they follow Apple's lead and embrace hardware memory compression. Even without, PCIe 5.0 or 6.0 speeds are ample for page migration and the odd cold page hit.

Might happen after the DDR6 generation, so probably more than 5 years (for the CXL part).

I could imagine AMD dabbling with it during the AM6 era, but that already seems a little early for standard DIMM slots to disappear. It would be really interesting if they cut back on the number of external memory channels, but instead opted to support RDIMMs and up to 4 DIMMs per channel.

 

[bit_user]

technically tray price is cheaper than the N3xx

Pfft. List price on N300+ is a bit ridiculous. ark.intel.com claims $309. As usual, the lie becomes obvious when we see entire N305 mini-PCs costing less than that! The N305-based ODROID-H4 Ultra is only $220 (though, unlike some Alder Lake-N boards, it lacks DRAM and storage).

Also, they list the N97 at $128, but the base ODROID-H4 uses it and sells for just $99.