possibility of winning unspoiled (spoily)

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(This message was inspiried by a few things said in the YANI: changing
character classes thread)
I played for about three years before reading any spoilers, and I had
read the guidebook. (Not the Beginner's Guide- the guidebook that comes
with the game). So I'm a good example of one who had played unspoiled
for awhile, and I think I can speak for them. I also played the old
hack before finding out about nethack.
As far as I got before reading any spoilers was Medusa's level (but
not past the water), had never gotten past level 2 or 3 of the quest,
had never conquered Fort Ludios, and had never gotten past the second
Sokoban level. Only once had I ever found Fort Ludios. Only once or
twice encountered an alter besides the one at minetown. (These are just
markers to give you an idea of how far I had gotten and how often, not
directly about possibility of winning unspoiled).

OK
Things I did not know what they did or did not know any use for:
free action
sustain ability (thought it made stuff like invisibility, see
invisibile or blindness last longer)- "ring of fixed attributes" might
be a better name?
cancellation
coranthaum
dexterity (I thought it was for shooting/throwing things)
any musical instruments (except the horns that ID themselves)
bells
dwarvish, orcish cloaks, mummy wrappings (knew nothing of magic
protection)
any potions of water
donating to priests
create familiar spell (not that I ever got good enough in spells to
cast it)
fedora (thought it must have some use)
towels (didn't think of wearing a towel)
lenses (besides protecting against raven pecking)
good uses of getting blind or confused

There are LOTS of things I had never thought of trying before reading
the spoilers:
polymorphing objects
dipping stuff into holy water (I think the only thing I ever tried
dipping was a potion of oil into an oil lamp to try to refill it)
price IDing (I had caught onto ?oID being the cheapest, but the prices
seemed to change enough that I didn't think any other price IDing was
possible)
engrave IDing with wands
shooting wands at myself (for speed monster or teleport)
dipping a unicorn horn into potions
that pets would step on cursed objects if there was food there
helping a pet or other monster out of a trap
Never figured out how to convert an alter
OK, those things I could've thought of and probably would have
eventually if I hadn't spoiled myself, but here are some things I likely
would never have figured out:
using a pit and a boulder to get rid of the iron ball
praying on an alter to change plain water into holy water
why a bag of holding would explode when I put an unIDed wand into it
greasing a bag or a cloak
wearing a mummy wrapping to make myself visible, or why a potion of
invisibility was sometimes permanent (I would just quit if I stayed
invisibile much longer than it usually wore off)
repairing armor and weapons with confused scrolls of enchant
weapon/armor
that reflection could affect floating eyes or Medusa (you can still
see them)

Faulty methods I usually used when not spoiled:
always left my pet behind unless I started with a polymorph wand to
turn it into something tougher
thought gaining levels fast as possible was good (how could you know
otherwise without being spoiled?)
thought throwing hand weapons did significant damage
never picked up: tinning kits, gems (unless I was an archeologist),
mattocks (pickaxes weigh less- didn't think of using them as weapons),
T-shirts
thought it was a bigger penatly for monks eating meat or using weapons
didn't think there was any penalty for being a murderer or killing
peaceful monsters
didn't know that spellcasting made you hungry (I'd starve every healer
if I lived long enough to starve)

The Late game:
would take a long time to figure out how to get into the wizard's
tower unless the portal happened to be in your way- even if you map the
whole level that doesn't include going into corners or the few spaces at
each dead end. Even when I won in wizard mode soon after getting
spoiled I couldn't figure out how to get to the wizard so I wished for
the Book of the Dead.
If an unspoiled player had never played Zork then it would be near
impossible to figure out how to open the vibrating square and very hard
to figure out the bad effects of carrying or wearing the Amulet
it would also be quite hard to figure out how to get to the next level
from the plane of earth- finding the portal is hard enough, but an
unspoiled player who's there for the first time doesn't even know what
he's looking for

Estimated time it would take me to win the game unspoiled (if ever):
about 7-9 years
Chances of not giving up on the game before then:
approximately 1 in 976 trillion

As far as I'm concerned, the game as it is now is not meant to be
played unspoiled for more than 2-3 years. It's good to play awhile and
try to figure out some things before getting spoiled but to me it seems
your supposed to get spoiled.

Asher

Things I still can't figure out:
what wisdom does when intelligence is your spellcasting attribute
what happens when a magic trap makes your pack shake violently or makes
you long for a distant homeland


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David Justiss wrote:

> didn't think there was any penalty for being a murderer or
> killing peaceful monsters

This one I don't understand. You even get warned before you attack a
peaceful creature, something the game usually does not.

> didn't know that spellcasting made you hungry (I'd starve every
> healer if I lived long enough to starve)

If ever there was a class that should never starve, it's the healer. You
can change all rocks and boulders into meat, with the stone to flesh
spell you are guaranteed to start with.

> would take a long time to figure out how to get into the wizard's
> tower unless the portal happened to be in your way- even if you map
> the whole level that doesn't include going into corners or the few
> spaces at each dead end. Even when I won in wizard mode soon after
> getting spoiled I couldn't figure out how to get to the wizard so I
> wished for the Book of the Dead.

But you *would* find the two little towers deeper down. Wouldn't you
eventually want to find out what was inside them?

> If an unspoiled player had never played Zork then it would be near
> impossible to figure out how to open the vibrating square and very
> hard to figure out the bad effects of carrying or wearing the Amulet

I don't think there are many players that have played Zork. I, for one,
never knew that Zork had a vibrating space and an amulet like the Amulet
of Yendor.

On the other hand, the ritual with Bell, Book and Candle is a well known
ritual, which appears in various myths and popular fantasy literature.

Also, as you might have read if you had followed Ellora's story, last
summer, most of the obscure things that are difficult to find out
yourself may be bought as major oracularities from the Oracle. Advanced
characters always have plenty of money they have no real use for, should
use it to buy information from her.

> Things I still can't figure out:
> what happens when a magic trap makes your pack shake violently or
> makes you long for a distant homeland

Nothing happens, except that you get this flavour message.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
 

seraphim

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"David Justiss" <dajustis@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:fbfe8590279c013c0cc99db1aed6588b.119979@mygate.mailgate.org:

> (This message was inspiried by a few things said in the YANI:
> changing character classes thread)
> I played for about three years before reading any spoilers, and I
> had
> read the guidebook. (Not the Beginner's Guide- the guidebook that
> comes with the game). So I'm a good example of one who had played
> unspoiled for awhile, and I think I can speak for them. I also
> played the old hack before finding out about nethack.
> As far as I got before reading any spoilers was Medusa's level
> (but
> not past the water), had never gotten past level 2 or 3 of the
> quest, had never conquered Fort Ludios, and had never gotten past
> the second Sokoban level. Only once had I ever found Fort Ludios.
> Only once or twice encountered an alter besides the one at minetown.
> (These are just markers to give you an idea of how far I had gotten
> and how often, not directly about possibility of winning unspoiled).
>
> [Snip list]
>
> As far as I'm concerned, the game as it is now is not meant to be
> played unspoiled for more than 2-3 years. It's good to play awhile
> and try to figure out some things before getting spoiled but to me
> it seems your supposed to get spoiled.

The game has a way for you to get spoiled. It is called the oracle. The
majority of the points you address have clues associated with then that
can be obtained from the oracle.
 
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"David Justiss" <dajustis@hotmail.com> writes:
> Things I still can't figure out:
> what wisdom does when intelligence is your spellcasting attribute

It's used to determine the rate at which your magical power
regenerates, and how much power you gain when levelling up.

(Characters with low wisdom can also be paralysed for longer by
floating eyes, but that's a minor issue.)

--
: Dylan O'Donnell http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/ :
: "Nothing matters very much, and few things matter at all." :
: -- A.J. Balfour :
 

m0nkey

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Ever tried to play the real D&D role playing game without researching
it?

I think one of the best things about nethack is that your forced to
read up on the games mechanics. Item stat sheets are the only things I
truly consider "spoilers".

Reading about how to ascend and actually pulling it off two very
different things. (I've yet to do the latter, Only been playing for 2
weeks.)
 

m0nkey

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Ever tried to play the real D&D role playing game without researching
it?

I think one of the best things about nethack is that your forced to
read up on the games mechanics. Item stat sheets are the only things I
truly consider "spoilers".

Reading about how to ascend and actually pulling it off two very
different things. (I've yet to do the latter, Only been playing for 2
weeks.)
 

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In article <fbfe8590279c013c0cc99db1aed6588b.119979@mygate.mailgate.org>,
David Justiss <dajustis@hotmail.com> wrote:

> As far as I'm concerned, the game as it is now is not meant to be
>played unspoiled for more than 2-3 years.

I don't believe it's meant to be played unspoiled at all. I believe the
whole point of a game like this, is so that there can be a game which is
still enjoyable even for someone who knows every line of the source code,
which Nethack absolutely is.

But a few of the things you never figured out, are actually in guidebook,
and some things are in the classic adventure game category of "try every
action with every item."

At least one thing I still can't figure out, even though completely
spoiled, is exactly how you do the boulder/pit/iron ball thing. Does it
require a scroll?
 
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"Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote in message
news:d21v1a$t0p$1@news3.zwoll1.ov.home.nl

> David Justiss wrote:
>
> > would take a long time to figure out how to get into the wizard's
> > tower unless the portal happened to be in your way- even if you map
> > the whole level that doesn't include going into corners or the few
> > spaces at each dead end. Even when I won in wizard mode soon after
> > getting spoiled I couldn't figure out how to get to the wizard so I
> > wished for the Book of the Dead.
>
> But you *would* find the two little towers deeper down. Wouldn't you
> eventually want to find out what was inside them?
I'd want to, but how to figure out how to get inside them is them
problem.

> > If an unspoiled player had never played Zork then it would be near
> > impossible to figure out how to open the vibrating square and very
> > hard to figure out the bad effects of carrying or wearing the Amulet
>
> I don't think there are many players that have played Zork. I, for one,
> never knew that Zork had a vibrating space and an amulet like the Amulet
> of Yendor.
>
> On the other hand, the ritual with Bell, Book and Candle is a well known
> ritual, which appears in various myths and popular fantasy literature.
Really? I'm interested in fantasy and mythology (though I admit not
an expert in it) never heard of any ritual with a the bell, book and
candle. Zork is the only place I had ever heard of that ritual. Zork has
no amulet or vibrating square, nevertheless it would very hard to figure
out how to open it if you hadn't heard of the Bell, book and candle
ritual which I only knew of from Zork.

<magic trap messages>
There aren't many red herrings in nethack, so like with the fedora,
I assumed there much be some meaning to those messages.

Asher

Check out Wierd World! A puzzle/adventure game I created (not a
roguelike)
Homemade graphics, great brainteasers and lots of humor!
http://www.geocities.com/will_asher/wworldpg.htm


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james wrote:
>
> At least one thing I still can't figure out, even though completely
> spoiled, is exactly how you do the boulder/pit/iron ball thing. Does it
> require a scroll?

I'd guess, move a boulder adjacent to a pit, drag the iron ball over the
pit to let it fall in, step behind the boulder and push it into the pit.

Janis
 
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David Justiss wrote:

>> But you *would* find the two little towers deeper down. Wouldn't you
>> eventually want to find out what was inside them?

> I'd want to, but how to figure out how to get inside them is them
> problem.

HOw so? The is a tower, surrounded by water. If you got that low, it
should be easy to cross the water, and to dig through the tower wall.

Such a dungeon feature should draw your attention and curiosity.

> Zork is the only place I had ever heard of that ritual.

Well, that's enough, isn't it? The fact that *even* obscure, though
historically important, games like zork use it, should be an indication
that the ritual itself would be quite well-known.

> There aren't many red herrings in nethack, so like with the
> fedora, I assumed there much be some meaning to those messages.

Understandable. Espicially since NetHack usually says "Nothing happens".

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
 
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M0nKeY wrote:

> Ever tried to play the real D&D role playing game without researching
> it?

When I first played it, our DM didn't let us read the DMG, and
rightfully so. Of course, you need to know (parts of) the PHB, but you
don't need to know everything. For example, the non-spellcasters weren't
allowed to know about spellcasting (at least, not more than they could
deduce from play).

> I think one of the best things about nethack is that your forced to
> read up on the games mechanics.

No you're not. Ellora's story is the best example. She even deduced the
damage weapons did from game play. Ellora's player considered the
stethoscope the best find of the game.

Also, note that the Oracle is very valuable for non-spoiled players.
She'll tell you about the critically important things. What she won't
tell you isn't critical to win the game.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
 
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"David Justiss" <dajustis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote in message
>news:d21v1a$t0p$1@news3.zwoll1.ov.home.nl
>> On the other hand, the ritual with Bell, Book and Candle is a well known
>> ritual, which appears in various myths and popular fantasy literature.
> Really? I'm interested in fantasy and mythology (though I admit not
>an expert in it) never heard of any ritual with a the bell, book and
>candle.

Well, there's always the quote from Christopher Marlowe's "Doctor
Faustus", which is in Nethack's item-description database entry for
"candle":
"Bell, book, and candle, candle, book, and bell,
Forward and backward, to curse Faustus to hell."
and which dates back to, ooh, the early 17th century; Marlowe was a
contemporary of Shakespeare, albeit less widely-read.

In any event, I'd heard of the convention of the bell, book, and candle
being the instruments of ritual before I ever played Zork I.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html
 
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Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

> M0nKeY wrote:
>

>
>> I think one of the best things about nethack is that your forced to
>> read up on the games mechanics.


> No you're not. Ellora's story is the best example. She even deduced
> the damage weapons did from game play. Ellora's player considered
> the stethoscope the best find of the game.

Well, i think that story is pure fiction so i don't really think it is
you can apply it it to the whole nethack playing community. Even if
it isn't fiction one player figuring something out doesn't make the
case that the game can be figured out without spoilers for the
majority of players.


> Also, note that the Oracle is very valuable for non-spoiled players.
> She'll tell you about the critically important things. What she
> won't tell you isn't critical to win the game.

Well, the oracle did help me out, i just wish the language she uses
was better written. Oh well, nothing is perfect.

Jorge
 
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jorge estrada wrote:

> one player figuring something out doesn't make the case that the
> game can be figured out without spoilers for the majority of players.

If ONE can do it, everyone should be able to do it.

As long as one can stand the boredom, of course. I don't think even *I*
would have the patience to do it...

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
 
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Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

> jorge estrada wrote:
>
>> one player figuring something out doesn't make the case that the
>> game can be figured out without spoilers for the majority of
>> players.
>
> If ONE can do it, everyone should be able to do it.

What, is that like everybody can be president of the United States?


> As long as one can stand the boredom, of course. I don't think even
> *I* would have the patience to do it...

No, if one can do it than that one can do it and thats it. We don't
really know why that one can do it (but we are given some hints and
we can guess.)

In order to find out if winning the game is possible and/or probable
we need to know how many people who play nethack have won unspoiled.
If there are 6000 regular players and only one has won unspoiled
(which i don't believe has happened) then what are the chances of any
player winning this game without reading spoilers?

On the other hand if half of them win unspoiled, what would be the
chances then?

Jorge
 
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jorge estrada wrote:
> Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
>> jorge estrada wrote:

>> If ONE can do it, everyone should be able to do it.

> What, is that like everybody can be president of the United States?

Right. We have several good examples of that.

> In order to find out if winning the game is possible and/or probable
> we need to know how many people who play nethack have won unspoiled.

I don't think anyone ever has, but that's not the point. We're
discussing whether or not it is *possible*, not whether or not anyone
has ever done it or will actually do it.

> If there are 6000 regular players and only one has won unspoiled
> (which i don't believe has happened) then what are the chances of any
> player winning this game without reading spoilers?
>
> On the other hand if half of them win unspoiled, what would be the
> chances then?

Again, I wasn't talking about what would be *feasible*. I was talking
about what would be possible, however improbable.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
 
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Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

> jorge estrada wrote:
>> Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
>>> jorge estrada wrote:
>
>>> If ONE can do it, everyone should be able to do it.
>
>> What, is that like everybody can be president of the United States?
>
> Right. We have several good examples of that.

No, we don't. There are many people who will never become president.
If anybody has reached this post (for example clinton who btw,
completed college. I doubt that some of the "homeboys" back home have
a chance in hell in getting the post.) who is not typical of the
class that usually gets in this post, that does not mean everybody
and anybody can become president.


>> In order to find out if winning the game is possible and/or
>> probable we need to know how many people who play nethack have won
>> unspoiled.
>
> I don't think anyone ever has, but that's not the point. We're
> discussing whether or not it is *possible*, not whether or not
> anyone has ever done it or will actually do it.

You may not be discussing that, but i am. I don't care about theory or
the best cast scenario. I am taking what can actually be done by real
nethack players who don't read spoilers. The reason i care is that i
would like to see changes in nethack to make it easier for unspoiled
players to win. (with out affecting the spoiled ones if at all
possible.)



Jorge
 
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jorge estrada wrote:
> Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
>>M0nKeY wrote:
>
>>>I think one of the best things about nethack is that your forced to
>>>read up on the games mechanics.
>
>>No you're not. Ellora's story is the best example. She even deduced
>>the damage weapons did from game play. Ellora's player considered
>>the stethoscope the best find of the game.
>
> Well, i think that story is pure fiction so i don't really think it is
> you can apply it it to the whole nethack playing community.

It has been written that it is an _example_ [that it is possible] (nothing
to extend to a community).

There had been other posters in the past also telling about their
unspoiled progress. If you don't *believe* people who tell that they do
it unspoiled - and who knows - then it's useless to talk about such at
all, I suppose.

Frankly, I don't know whether it is possible or not; I would have liked
to see a proof of concept by Ellora, or whomever (which you, maybe, would
not have believed). But I've yet to see an example of anything that would
have prohibited an unspoiled ascension.

One thing I suspect being practically necessary (and I don't know of any
existing hint) is MR. You could of course deduce it at least by accident
with the help of enlightenment.

> Even if
> it isn't fiction one player figuring something out doesn't make the
> case that the game can be figured out without spoilers for the
> majority of players.

I've seen *very* stupid moves, a couple reported here, others by viewing
games at n.a.o; really easy things that could be tried out given the help
of the guidebook or simply applying their tools.

The interesting thing with Ellora's story was that "she" was very _exact_
in everything she was doing; the procedure was comprehensible. And if
someone would act like Ellora, I'm sure, that this person would have a
higher success rate than before, and could even ascend.

I am certain it is not the game nethack that forces (or not) you to do
any spoiler reading about game mechanics; it is the player, solely, that
determines the grade of spoiler he needs and the amount of exactness he
wants to invest. (And, for completeness, to add Boudewijns comment, the
amount of boredom one is willing to endure.)

Janis
 
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Janis Papanagnou wrote:

> jorge estrada wrote:
>> Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
>>>M0nKeY wrote:
>>
>>>>I think one of the best things about nethack is that your forced
>>>>to read up on the games mechanics.
>>
>>>No you're not. Ellora's story is the best example. She even deduced
>>>the damage weapons did from game play. Ellora's player considered
>>>the stethoscope the best find of the game.
>>
>> Well, i think that story is pure fiction so i don't really think it
>> is you can apply it it to the whole nethack playing community.
>
> It has been written that it is an _example_ [that it is possible]
> (nothing to extend to a community).

> There had been other posters in the past also telling about their
> unspoiled progress. If you don't *believe* people who tell that they
> do it unspoiled - and who knows - then it's useless to talk about
> such at all, I suppose.

I believe people if they tell me they are unspoiled. I also know that
unspoiled play can be possible for one to reach hell. I just don't
believe that the Ellora story is anything but fiction.


> Frankly, I don't know whether it is possible or not; I would have
> liked to see a proof of concept by Ellora, or whomever (which you,
> maybe, would not have believed). But I've yet to see an example of
> anything that would have prohibited an unspoiled ascension.

Well, mostly it is from experience. Nobody has ever posted here about
winning unspoiled and i don't know anybody at NAO who made it
unspoiled. If anybody knows otherwise i would love to hear about it.

> One thing I suspect being practically necessary (and I don't know of
> any existing hint) is MR. You could of course deduce it at least by
> accident with the help of enlightenment.


I think i figured out MR unspoiled by playing wizards, but that was a
long time ago (and i did read and print out the rumor files for hack
so i was spoiled in some sense, so i guess i don't count.)
>
>> Even if
>> it isn't fiction one player figuring something out doesn't make the
>> case that the game can be figured out without spoilers for the
>> majority of players.
>
> I've seen *very* stupid moves, a couple reported here, others by
> viewing games at n.a.o; really easy things that could be tried out
> given the help of the guidebook or simply applying their tools.

I read the guidebook back in the day, but nethack is so complex that
some things in it where beyond my understanding. Even after reading
spoilers and the guidebook i didn't know how to remove a saddle from
a critter until somebody on the newsgroup told me to use the loot
command.

>
> The interesting thing with Ellora's story was that "she" was very
> _exact_ in everything she was doing; the procedure was
> comprehensible. And if someone would act like Ellora, I'm sure, that
> this person would have a higher success rate than before, and could
> even ascend.

Yeah, except that i still think that couldn't happen. Also, the
player, in his fictional account, said he used to play D&D. How many
nethack players used to play that game? (and i did i think it helps
alot.)



> I am certain it is not the game nethack that forces (or not) you to
> do any spoiler reading about game mechanics; it is the player,
> solely, that determines the grade of spoiler he needs and the amount
> of exactness he wants to invest. (And, for completeness, to add
> Boudewijns comment, the amount of boredom one is willing to endure.)
>
I just would like to see or hear about someone that ascends without
resorting to spoilers. I personally would like more hints put into
the game to make ascending without spoilers more probable.

Jorge
 
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On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 00:22:06 +0200,
"Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote:

> Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>> One thing I suspect being practically necessary (and I don't know of
>> any existing hint) is MR. You could of course deduce it at least by
>> accident with the help of enlightenment.

> Identifying a cloak of magic resistance would help, as well.

But what would make an unspoiled player think that magic resistance was
more important than displacement? I can get both from an appropriate
cloak, and both are important enough to be noted during enlightenment
(although it may take a couple of tries to figure out that a cloak of
magic *resistance* shows up as magic *protection* during enlightenment).
I see the effects of both equally (e.g., "the [magic] missile bounces,"
or "the [foo] strikes at your displaced image and misses you").

OTOH, MR is only *practically* necessary, not absolutely necessary (not
that I can ascend with or with out it, of course), and the consensus on
displacement that it's nice, but only if you have another source of MR,
so perhaps the fact that the game points them both out so much (or at
all) is simply a red herring....

Regards,
Dan

--
Dan Sommers
<http://www.tombstonezero.net/dan/>
μâ‚€ × εâ‚€ × c² = 1
 
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jorge estrada wrote:
> Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
>> jorge estrada wrote:
>>> Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
>>>> jorge estrada wrote:

>>> What, is that like everybody can be president of the United States?

>> Right. We have several good examples of that.

> No, we don't. There are many people who will never become president.
> If anybody has reached this post (for example clinton who btw,
> completed college. I doubt that some of the "homeboys" back home have
> a chance in hell in getting the post.) who is not typical of the
> class that usually gets in this post, that does not mean everybody
> and anybody can become president.

Being famous is something anyone can achieve. Take, for example, Arnie.
And famous people that run for office *very* often get elected.

I wonder what would happen if Ozzy Osbourne would run for presidency.
He might just get enough protest votes from youths to actually win...

:)

> You may not be discussing that, but i am. I don't care about theory or
> the best cast scenario. I am taking what can actually be done by real
> nethack players who don't read spoilers. The reason i care is that i
> would like to see changes in nethack to make it easier for unspoiled
> players to win. (with out affecting the spoiled ones if at all
> possible.)

I would like that, as well, but I cannot think of ways to achieve it,
given your final bracketed provision.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
 
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On 03/27/05 5:18 PM, Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

> Being famous is something anyone can achieve. Take, for example, Arnie.
> And famous people that run for office *very* often get elected.

Too bad the US Constitution only allows natural born citizens, or those
who became citizens before it was adopted to become president. Loophole:
The Terminator goes back in time to 1789 or so and gets his US
citizenship then. Who's gonna disagree with him?

> :)

:-D

--
Chris "Bob" Odorjan - bobnet@canada.com
BobNET - http://www.execulink.com/~bobnet/
 
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Janis Papanagnou wrote:

> One thing I suspect being practically necessary (and I don't know of
> any existing hint) is MR. You could of course deduce it at least by
> accident with the help of enlightenment.

Identifying a cloak of magic resistance would help, as well.

> The interesting thing with Ellora's story was that "she" was very
> _exact_ in everything she was doing; the procedure was
> comprehensible. And if someone would act like Ellora, I'm sure, that
> this person would have a higher success rate than before, and could
> even ascend.

And note that Ellora's player had played other roguelikes before
(although only a few), as well as real-life fantasy role playing, if I
recall correctly. Also, he had played some games of NetHack before
starting up Ellora. Not many, though, so it's still quite an achievement
to get as far as he did.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
 
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jorge estrada wrote:

> Well, mostly it is from experience. Nobody has ever posted here about
> winning unspoiled and i don't know anybody at NAO who made it
> unspoiled. If anybody knows otherwise i would love to hear about it.

I don't think there are many unspoiled people reading the newsgroup.
If you do the latter, remaining unspoiled is almost impossible.

> I read the guidebook back in the day, but nethack is so complex that
> some things in it where beyond my understanding. Even after reading
> spoilers and the guidebook i didn't know how to remove a saddle from
> a critter until somebody on the newsgroup told me to use the loot
> command.

What's beyond your understanding in the following quote from the
Guidebook?

-> #loot
-> Loot a box or bag on the floor beneath you, or the saddle
-> from a horse standing next to you.

If I was looking for a way to remove a saddle from a horse, I'd take the
Guidebook and search for "saddle"...

> Yeah, except that i still think that couldn't happen. Also, the
> player, in his fictional account, said he used to play D&D. How many
> nethack players used to play that game? (and i did i think it helps
> alot.)

I think the nerdyness in this newsgroup to be beyond average. Hence, the
number of fantasy roleplayers is expected to be appropriately high, as
well.

> I just would like to see or hear about someone that ascends without
> resorting to spoilers. I personally would like more hints put into
> the game to make ascending without spoilers more probable.

As said before, so would I. But I don't think it to be possible without
making the game too easy for advanced players.

The only way I can easily think of is to create more hints for the
Oracle, but that would mean that the "necessary" hints, like the one
about bell, book and candle would shop up even less often.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
 
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Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

> jorge estrada wrote:
>
>> Well, mostly it is from experience. Nobody has ever posted here
>> about winning unspoiled and i don't know anybody at NAO who made it
>> unspoiled. If anybody knows otherwise i would love to hear about
>> it.
>
> I don't think there are many unspoiled people reading the newsgroup.
> If you do the latter, remaining unspoiled is almost impossible.
>
>> I read the guidebook back in the day, but nethack is so complex
>> that some things in it where beyond my understanding. Even after
>> reading spoilers and the guidebook i didn't know how to remove a
>> saddle from a critter until somebody on the newsgroup told me to
>> use the loot command.
>
> What's beyond your understanding in the following quote from the
> Guidebook?
>
> -> #loot
> -> Loot a box or bag on the floor beneath you, or the saddle
> -> from a horse standing next to you.
>

Sure, it is easy when you know what to look for, but at this stage i
was spoiled rotten and looked up info in the group and spoilers and
guidebook. There is so much info in nethack that i just read over
that paragraph. I read it but did not take in the info. I has already
won the game at this point and was playing my crazy conduct games.

Jorge