Possible play sequence

Toggle sidebar Toggle sidebar
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

All,

I am down to 1 life. I have 10 available Swamps. I do the following 2 steps
on my turn:

1) I play Kokusho, The Evening Star

Kokusho, the Evenin Legendary Creature
{4}{B}{B}
Legendary Creature
Flying
When Kokusho, the Evening Star is put into a graveyard from play, each
opponent loses 5 life. You gain life equal to the life lost this way.


2) I then play Death Cloud with X = 1 Swamp

Death Cloud
{X}{B}{B}{B}
Sorcery
Each player loses X life, then discards X cards from his or her hand, then
sacrifices X creatures, then sacrifices X lands.


So in the resolution of the stack [I think that is the right term] am I
allowed to lose 1 life, discard 1 card from my hand, sacrifice 1 creature -
sack Kokusho and gain 5 life at this point - and sacrifice 1 land?

Tia,
Nazman
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

NazMan wrote:

> All,
>
> I am down to 1 life. I have 10 available Swamps. I do the following 2
> steps on my turn:
>
> 1) I play Kokusho, The Evening Star
>
> Kokusho, the Evenin Legendary Creature
> {4}{B}{B}
> Legendary Creature
> Flying
> When Kokusho, the Evening Star is put into a graveyard from play, each
> opponent loses 5 life. You gain life equal to the life lost this way.
>
>
> 2) I then play Death Cloud with X = 1 Swamp
>
> Death Cloud
> {X}{B}{B}{B}
> Sorcery
> Each player loses X life, then discards X cards from his or her hand, then
> sacrifices X creatures, then sacrifices X lands.
>
>
> So in the resolution of the stack [I think that is the right term] am I
> allowed to lose 1 life, discard 1 card from my hand, sacrifice 1 creature
> - sack Kokusho and gain 5 life at this point - and sacrifice 1 land?

No. The four things that happen when Death Cloud resolve don't use the
stack individually. It is one spell. It has one slot on the stack. It
happens one, two, three, four, but it does so indivisibly; nothing else
can happen while these four things go through their sequence. The life
gain from Kokusho is a triggered effect. It doesn't even
go on the stack until Death Cloud finishes resolving. It goes like this:
You play Death Cloud, X=1. Assuming nobody has anything they want to
play in response, it then resolves. Both you and your opponent lose one
life (putting you at zero). Then both you and your opponent discard one
card. Then your opponent sacrifices some creature and you sacrifice
Kokusho. This triggers his triggered ability but nothing concerning it
happens yet: the game state simply makes note that it triggered for
when it will be time to put triggered effects on the stack. And then
both your and your opponent sac one land. Now that Death Cloud has
finished resolving, you first check state-based effects and then
put triggered effects that have triggered on the stack before you
get priority to play something again. First state-based effects, and
sure enough, you have one. Losing the game because you have less than
one life is a state-based effect. You have zero life. You lose.
Game is over before Kokusho's life-gain can even go on the stack,
let alone resolve.


--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Oh no! It's NazMan!
> All,
>
> I am down to 1 life. I have 10 available Swamps. I do the following 2 steps
> on my turn:
>
> 1) I play Kokusho, The Evening Star
>
> Kokusho, the Evenin Legendary Creature
> {4}{B}{B}
> Legendary Creature
> Flying
> When Kokusho, the Evening Star is put into a graveyard from play, each
> opponent loses 5 life. You gain life equal to the life lost this way.
>
>
> 2) I then play Death Cloud with X = 1 Swamp
>
> Death Cloud
> {X}{B}{B}{B}
> Sorcery
> Each player loses X life, then discards X cards from his or her hand, then
> sacrifices X creatures, then sacrifices X lands.
>
>
> So in the resolution of the stack [I think that is the right term] am I
> allowed to lose 1 life, discard 1 card from my hand, sacrifice 1 creature -
> sack Kokusho and gain 5 life at this point - and sacrifice 1 land?

No. All of Death Cloud's abilities happen at once; nothing else can
happen in the middle of this. One of those four things, namely
sacrificing a creature, then triggers Koshuko's ability, which will then
go on the stack - except that, before this even happens, state-based
effects will be checked and the game will see that you have zero or
fewer life, and you will lose at that point.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jeff Heikkinen wrote:

>
> No. All of Death Cloud's abilities happen at once;

No, not quite; because it uses "then" to separate the
clauses, they happen in sequence, one after the other.
Continuous effects will vary according to their text
while this happens; also it is conceivable that
replacement effects would make this significant. For
example, if you had a permanent in play that was
only a creature while you have threshold, and you had
six cards in your graveyard before DC started
resolving, you could sacrifice it as one of your
creatures to DC, because DC will put you over
threshold when you discard, which you
do before you choose and sacrifice creatures.

> nothing else can
> happen in the middle of this.

However, this is basically true.

> One of those four things, namely
> sacrificing a creature, then triggers Koshuko's ability, which will then
> go on the stack - except that, before this even happens, state-based
> effects will be checked and the game will see that you have zero or
> fewer life, and you will lose at that point.

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 13:50:29 GMT, NazMan <cnazario@cinci.rr.com> wrote:
>I am down to 1 life. I have 10 available Swamps. I do the following 2 steps
>on my turn:
>
>1) I play Kokusho, The Evening Star
>Kokusho, the Evenin >{4}{B}{B} >Legendary Creature
>Flying
>When Kokusho, the Evening Star is put into a graveyard from play, each
> opponent loses 5 life. You gain life equal to the life lost this way.

Okay, that takes 6 black mana, which you can get from 6 of your swamps.

>2) I then play Death Cloud with X = 1 Swamp

X can't equal swamps; X isn't a land. X must equal an amount of _mana_. Since
X is a generic cost, any color of mana, or colorless, can be used towards it.

You may play Death Cloud with X=1, and pay 1BBB, using your other four black
mana, made by tapping each of your other four Swamps and using their "Tap: Add
B to your mana pool" abilities. But you can't "spend a Swamp" in any way here.
Death Cloud does not ask for sacrifice of lands, or anything else related to
something being a Swamp.

>Death Cloud >{X}{B}{B}{B} >Sorcery
>Each player loses X life, then discards X cards from his or her hand, then
>sacrifices X creatures, then sacrifices X lands.

Okay. You and opponent will each lose 1 life; this takes you to 0. Then you
discard one card, and so does he. Then you sacrifice one creature, I'll assume
the Evening Star, triggering its ability, and he does also; finally you
sacrifice one Swamp and he sacrifices one land. Then Death Cloud is done
resolving and goes to your graveyard.

Then you lose the game because you are at 0 life. The triggered ability from
the Evening Star doesn't get to go on the stack, much less resolve, because
you have already lost, due to a state-based effect, before the time to put
triggered abilities onto the stack arrives.

>So in the resolution of the stack [I think that is the right term]

Er, no: what's resolving is the spell. The spell is on the stack; the stack
itself isn't resolving, it's a zone of play where spells and abilities live.
The spell Death Cloud is resolving.

>am I
>allowed to lose 1 life, discard 1 card from my hand, sacrifice 1 creature -
>sack Kokusho and gain 5 life at this point - and sacrifice 1 land?

Yes, yes, yes, yes, NO, yes. You do not, and CANNOT, "gain 5 life at this
point". Kokusho's ability is triggered, and does trigger at that time, but
can't even go onto the stack until a) Death Cloud is fully done resolving
and b) state-based effects have been checked for.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David DeLaney (dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com) wrote:

: Yes, yes, yes, yes, NO, yes. You do not, and CANNOT, "gain 5 life at this
: point". Kokusho's ability is triggered, and does trigger at that time, but
: can't even go onto the stack until a) Death Cloud is fully done resolving
: and b) state-based effects have been checked for.

Leads me to a more general question:

In days of old (and there's perhaps a small possibility the original
question comes from this) life totals were only checked at the end
of each phase, making it possible to go briefly to or below 0 and
survive, provided you gained life somehow to get above 0 before the
end of that phase. In other words, the original questioner's trick
would have worked.

My question is, what was the rationale behind changing life-total
checking into a state-based effect?


Keith
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Oh no! It's Chris Mattern!
> Jeff Heikkinen wrote:
>
> >
> > No. All of Death Cloud's abilities happen at once;
>
> No, not quite; because it uses "then" to separate the
> clauses, they happen in sequence, one after the other.
> Continuous effects will vary according to their text
> while this happens; also it is conceivable that
> replacement effects would make this significant. For
> example, if you had a permanent in play that was
> only a creature while you have threshold, and you had
> six cards in your graveyard before DC started
> resolving, you could sacrifice it as one of your
> creatures to DC, because DC will put you over
> threshold when you discard, which you
> do before you choose and sacrifice creatures.

Good points, all. Also, I notice that I badly misused the term
"abilities" 🙂.

The fact remains that they happen as a single, indivisible event from
the game's point of view, which nothing else can start resolving in the
middle of; or in more practical terms...
> > nothing else can
> > happen in the middle of this.
>
> However, this is basically true.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Keith Piddington <uj551@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca> wrote:

> My question is, what was the rationale behind changing life-total
> checking into a state-based effect?

"The rule about losing immediately when you have 0 life is just
intuitive. It matches what happens to creatures that have 0 toughness or
take lethal damage. I only need to make one apology, to the one person
harmed by this rules change: I'm sorry, Mark Rosewater. I've made it
harder for you to create your puzzles."

Bill Rose
Magic Lead Designer
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Keith Piddington <uj551@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca> wrote:
>David DeLaney (dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com) wrote:
>: Yes, yes, yes, yes, NO, yes. You do not, and CANNOT, "gain 5 life at this
>: point". Kokusho's ability is triggered, and does trigger at that time, but
>: can't even go onto the stack until a) Death Cloud is fully done resolving
>: and b) state-based effects have been checked for.
>
>Leads me to a more general question:
>
>In days of old (and there's perhaps a small possibility the original
>question comes from this) life totals were only checked at the end
>of each phase, making it possible to go briefly to or below 0 and
>survive, provided you gained life somehow to get above 0 before the
>end of that phase. In other words, the original questioner's trick
>would have worked.

Right. Up through the end of 5th Edition that was the case.

>My question is, what was the rationale behind changing life-total
>checking into a state-based effect?

Partly "why should the players get to stick around when their creatures don't"
and partly to eliminate some rather odd decks that worked with, I think it
was, Cadaverous Bloom and Prosperity and Drain Lifes, or some such.
Essentially, these days anything the -rules- say Needs Corrected As Soon As
Possible If It Goes Wrong is a state-based effect. (Life too low, player drew
from an empty library, local enchantment or equipment where it shouldn't be,
too many Legendary or Enchant World permanents in play, player has 10 or more
poison counters, creature with too much damage on it or not enough toughness,
tokens somewhere other than in-play, or a copy of a spell somewhere other than
on the stack.) This is somewhat better than previous sets of the rules which
didn't actually specify how these things were taken care of, just that they
had to be fixed...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 6 Dec 2004, Chris Mattern wrote:

> Gareth Pye wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 10:23:32 -0500, Chris Mattern
>> <matternc@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> NazMan wrote:
>>>
>>>> All,
>>>>
>>>> I am down to 1 life. I have 10 available Swamps. I do the following 2
>>> First state-based effects, and
>>> sure enough, you have one. Losing the game because you have less than
>>> one life is a state-based effect. You have zero life. You lose.
>>> Game is over before Kokusho's life-gain can even go on the stack,
>>> let alone resolve.
>>
>> I thourght you died for having 0 or less life not less than 1.
>
> Er, that's two different ways of stating the same thing, unless
> you can demonstrate to me how you could have 0.5 life.

By being attacked by a Little Girl.

Little Girl
W (half)
Creature -- Human Child
{1/2}/{1/2}

--
David
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David de Kloet wrote:

> On Mon, 6 Dec 2004, Chris Mattern wrote:
>
>> Gareth Pye wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 10:23:32 -0500, Chris Mattern
>>> <matternc@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> NazMan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> All,
>>>>>
>>>>> I am down to 1 life. I have 10 available Swamps. I do the following 2
>>>> First state-based effects, and
>>>> sure enough, you have one. Losing the game because you have less than
>>>> one life is a state-based effect. You have zero life. You lose.
>>>> Game is over before Kokusho's life-gain can even go on the stack,
>>>> let alone resolve.
>>>
>>> I thourght you died for having 0 or less life not less than 1.
>>
>> Er, that's two different ways of stating the same thing, unless
>> you can demonstrate to me how you could have 0.5 life.
>
> By being attacked by a Little Girl.
>
> Little Girl
> W (half)
> Creature -- Human Child
> {1/2}/{1/2}
>
Bah. If it's not in Oracle, it doesn't exist 🙂.
--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 10:23:32 -0500, Chris Mattern
<matternc@comcast.net> wrote:

>NazMan wrote:
>
>> All,
>>
>> I am down to 1 life. I have 10 available Swamps. I do the following 2
>First state-based effects, and
>sure enough, you have one. Losing the game because you have less than
>one life is a state-based effect. You have zero life. You lose.
>Game is over before Kokusho's life-gain can even go on the stack,
>let alone resolve.

I thourght you died for having 0 or less life not less than 1.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Gareth Pye wrote:

> On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 10:23:32 -0500, Chris Mattern
> <matternc@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>NazMan wrote:
>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> I am down to 1 life. I have 10 available Swamps. I do the following 2
>>First state-based effects, and
>>sure enough, you have one. Losing the game because you have less than
>>one life is a state-based effect. You have zero life. You lose.
>>Game is over before Kokusho's life-gain can even go on the stack,
>>let alone resolve.
>
> I thourght you died for having 0 or less life not less than 1.

Er, that's two different ways of stating the same thing, unless
you can demonstrate to me how you could have 0.5 life.
--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 6 Dec 2004, Chris Mattern wrote:

> David de Kloet wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 6 Dec 2004, Chris Mattern wrote:
>>
>>> Gareth Pye wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 10:23:32 -0500, Chris Mattern
>>>> <matternc@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> NazMan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am down to 1 life. I have 10 available Swamps. I do the following 2
>>>>> First state-based effects, and
>>>>> sure enough, you have one. Losing the game because you have less than
>>>>> one life is a state-based effect. You have zero life. You lose.
>>>>> Game is over before Kokusho's life-gain can even go on the stack,
>>>>> let alone resolve.
>>>>
>>>> I thourght you died for having 0 or less life not less than 1.
>>>
>>> Er, that's two different ways of stating the same thing, unless
>>> you can demonstrate to me how you could have 0.5 life.
>>
>> By being attacked by a Little Girl.
>>
>> Little Girl
>> W (half)
>> Creature -- Human Child
>> {1/2}/{1/2}
>>
> Bah. If it's not in Oracle, it doesn't exist 🙂.

Oracle is dead. Killed by Gatherer sadly enough. :-(

--
David
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Chris Mattern <matternc@comcast.net> wrote:
>David de Kloet wrote:
>> By being attacked by a Little Girl.
>>
>> Little Girl .5W
>> Creature -- Human Child
>> {1/2}/{1/2}
>
>Bah. If it's not in Oracle, it doesn't exist 🙂.

But it is in the Gatherer Oracle. Notice that the Oracle _page_ doesn't have
Champions showing, and I've been told that they do not plan to update that
page any longer, now that Gatherer exists... except for the "All Cards" and
"Formats" links. Which didn't get updated for Unglued because it's not in
any format there and, well, I don't know why the All Cards file doesn't have
it.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts

Moderators online

Share this page

COMPANY
RESOURCES
FOLLOW
Top Bottom