Discussion Power supply / PSU models - What to buy, what to avoid - And PSU discussion thread

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Karadjgne

Titan
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Sorry, but that's not all that surprising. The only CM worth their salt is the V series, the rest are just ok and worse. It's not that they don't survive, I've got a really old CM G600 that still works, it's that everything about them is seriously mediocre. Build, quality, outputs, longetivity. Mediocre. And then they throw in the MW lite, at a cheap price, and ppl are expecting a lot more than they get, because it's CoolerMaster.
 

Darkbreeze

Titan
Moderator
Say it like it is. Cooler master makes cheap products. There is a reason that you can get many of their cases, power supplies, fans and other hardware so cheap. It's because they ARE cheap. Not that they don't HAVE some few better models here and there, but overall, cheap. And by cheap I don't just mean the price.

We have a moderator here that specifically says, "Friends don't let friends buy Cooler master products".

Plus, I suspect that the few decently tested units they DO still sell, are mostly cherry picked. I fully believe Cooler master is guilty of dealing cherry picked units out for review and so it's inevitable that they get a few mediocre reviews rather than outright dumpster fire unit results for them all. I'd buy a Cooler master case, a few specific models anyhow (And in fact HAVE, in years past) but I'd never buy a Cooler master power supply these days.
 

Mezoxin

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they also make comparitively reliable cheap fans , thier fans outlive other fans in the same price range atleast that is my experience , My hyper 212+ fans and the other 120MM fans from cooler master i had that were running 24/7 outlived my old tx-750 psu fan and my raven r03 200mm fans ,
 

Darkbreeze

Titan
Moderator
Sorry man, if it's not in English, I'm not bothering to look at it. I realize not everybody is from an English speaking country, but 95% of our member base either IS or speaks and reads English to some degree. Even the Russian and German reviews are at least somewhat reasonably translatable but reviews of Asian orientation are simply not worthwhile to me or to most people. Plus, I wouldn't trust a chinese reviewer reviewing a Chinese built product anyhow. They REALLY don't have the best track record when it comes to unbiased and impartial reviews of their own products.
 

Karadjgne

Titan
Herald
There's a difference? If assuming every psu is a Bestec until reviewed (reliably) and proven otherwise, you'll never run into trouble. It's only when ppl assume a psu is very good (based on vendor more than anything (Evga W1, TT TR2 etc)) that when issues arise later, they realize the sizeable extent to which they got hoodwinked by a big name and a flashy salesman.

If you assume the worst, you can't be disappointed by being proven true, but anything better is a bonus.
 

Mezoxin

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Sorry man, if it's not in English, I'm not bothering to look at it. I realize not everybody is from an English speaking country, but 95% of our member base either IS or speaks and reads English to some degree. Even the Russian and German reviews are at least somewhat reasonably translatable but reviews of Asian orientation are simply not worthwhile to me or to most people. Plus, I wouldn't trust a chinese reviewer reviewing a Chinese built product anyhow. They REALLY don't have the best track record when it comes to unbiased and impartial reviews of their own products.
yeah i dont speak chinese as well , the reviewer though seems to be well known in china he has alot of interesting articles in the forums , and is the same one who highlighted the ripple problems that the seasonic fx experience when overloaded by 20% , but he also did say that this a very unrealistic scenario and its never a good idea to overload a psu , he praised the fx for its performance he even personally owns one but his only problem that the over power protection was set a bit high , that being said i dont think he is the type of reviewer that would biasly praise Chinese products
 

Aeacus

Illustrious
Herald
yeah i dont speak chinese as well , the reviewer though seems to be well known in china he has alot of interesting articles in the forums , and is the same one who highlighted the ripple problems that the seasonic fx experience when overloaded by 20% , but he also did say that this a very unrealistic scenario and its never a good idea to overload a psu , he praised the fx for its performance he even personally owns one but his only problem that the over power protection was set a bit high , that being said i dont think he is the type of reviewer that would biasly praise Chinese products
Peter Molyneux is also well known but that doesn't make his word trustworthy.

Also, that Chinese reviewer (Mufasa) deliberately overloaded Seasonic PSU to get out of spec readings to use against the PSU. But he conveniently didn't overload Corsair CV550. I wonder why?
Moreover, he even didn't open Seasonic Focus+ 750 (80+ Platinum) to show it's innards with sorry ass excuse of PSU's warranty sticker being in the way.

A reviewer who isn't consistent with his testing methodology can not be trusted, no matter how well known he is.
 

Mezoxin

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Also, that Chinese reviewer (Mufasa) deliberately overloaded Seasonic PSU to get out of spec readings to use against the PSU. But he conveniently didn't overload Corsair CV550. I wonder why?
Moreover, he even didn't open Seasonic Focus+ 750 (80+ Platinum) to show it's innards with sorry ass excuse of PSU's warranty sticker being in the way.
A reviewer who isn't consistent with his testing methodology can not be trusted, no matter how well known he is.
I was quite skeptical of Mufasa as well When I first saw his review , and criticized his review and credebility and also was suspicious of why he didnt do a teardown of the psu (exactly as you did )and posted a near simialar post to yours in the LTT forums , but after reading several of his reviews I changed my mind.
When reviewers are overloading a PSU by 20% or more its mainly done to test the protections , and they normally dont put ripple responses for such unrealistic high wattage unless they see something out of the ordinary , for example aris does the same by saying when he overload a PSU to test the Protections he says very briefly that he didnt notice anything out of the ordinary till the PSU shutdowns , also Mufasa didnt make a big fuss about the issue as its a very unrealistic scenario and the probability that a user would actually intentiallly overload a PSU and keep the load sustained in the very narrow range between it starting making theses out of spec ripples and the OPP trigger point makes the scenario very more unrealistic , so he had the good sense of not making a big deal out of it (unlike others) and actually reccomending the PSU in summary

Other than that his testing methodology is quiet consistent , ofcourse not as detailed as Aris reviews , but again there is no one that has the competence and ability to provide a detailed review as Aris , the guy is an Engineer with 3 degrees and a PHD and decades of experience
 
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Darkbreeze

Titan
Moderator
Any reviewer who doesn't do a teardown of the PSU and is obviously not considered legitimate enough to receive test samples from the manufacturers (Because if they WERE, they WOULD do a teardown.) is not somebody that is going to find many fans outside their own limited region. Anyhow, I agree with the idea that just because a reviewer is popular doesn't mean a damn thing.

Behemot and C_Hegge from Hardwareinsights have been called out by a number of VERY well respected reviewers, some publicly and a few directly to myself in response to having asked for a second opinion regarding something Hardwareinsights had reviewed, for being seriously skewed in their methodology and results on a number of units. So obviously, just having the tools and some level of experience with using those tools, doesn't necessarily mean that whoever is doing the testing is doing it right or getting accurate results. I'm not saying that dude isn't, but I'm sure not willing to trust that he is either.

If he was all that, there'd be English version results that are more polished than what I see there. Again, competency breeds success, and I'm not seeing that there but maybe it's just me. IDK.
 

Karadjgne

Titan
Herald
Not just you. It's a common failing with Many reviewers, they tend to skip/gloss over the stuff that's important. They'll wax eloquent about rgb, or lack thereof in a case, yet fail to mention cpu cooler clearance. Or gripe about the looks/colors/volume of fans yet fail to mention just how tall the cooler is.

Read a psu review yesterday, I was unsure about its quality overall, (wish I could remember what it was hah!) but I do remember one of the Cons being lack of rgb fan. Wtf. Seriously? I'm just grateful I skipped the 9 page review....
 

Mezoxin

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http://bbs.pceva.com.cn/thread-145934-1-1.html
http://bbs.pceva.com.cn/thread-145965-1-1.html
http://bbs.pceva.com.cn/thread-145922-1-1.html
http://bbs.pceva.com.cn/thread-146711-1-1.html

you can see in all these reviews there is a complete tear down , the methodology is quiet consistent as well and he does focus on important aspects for psu performance relatively speaking his reviews are better than some of the english reviews i have seen that gets derailed and talk about unnecessary things such as rgb that @Karadjgne mentioned ,I dont know about his test bench it doesnt look like one of those sunmoon devices that most well known reviewers use maybe someone can tell us what he thinks of his testing equipment
 

Aeacus

Illustrious
Herald
Mufasa reviews are far from being consistent. For example:
Corsair RM650 - pic of PSU cables but 0 info about which cables there are and no listed cable/connector lengths either.
Corsair RM850 - same lackluster info about cables as RM650.
Seasonic Focus GX750 - no pic of PSU's cables whatsoever and 0 info what connectors it comes with.
Gigabyte P650B - again, no pic or info what cables/connectors it has.
Corsair CV550 - pic of connectors and that's it. No lengths and no list of it's connectors.
Seasonic Focus+ 750 (80+ Platinum) - only one rough pic of PSU itself. No pic/info about cables and no teardown as well.

For a proper, in-depth review, here's Oklahoma Wolf's review of Seasonic G-550 from 2014,
link: http://www.jonnyguru.com/blog/2014/03/10/seasonic-g-550-f3-550w-power-supply/2/
In there, there are 3x clear pics of PSU's cables and after that, a nice chart showing each cable's length and connectors distance.

2nd example as well. SSR-650TD (the unit i have) reviewed by Oklahoma Wolf in late 2016,
link: http://www.jonnyguru.com/blog/2016/10/31/seasonic-prime-650-titanium-power-supply/2/
5x clear pics of cables it comes with and again, a nice chart about PSU's cable lengths.

PSU connectors and their lengths are important factors when choosing a PSU. If PSU doesn't have the 2nd 6/8-pin PCI-E i need then there's no use for that PSU to me. Also, if the 4/8-pin EPS12V doesn't reach to the top of the MoBo when i use full-tower ATX case then there's no use of that PSU for me either.

There are 3x types of PSU reviews:
  1. Previews showing PSU (e.g unboxing) but no testing and/or teardown.
  2. Partial reviews showing some parts of PSU with some testing and probably a teardown as well.
  3. Credible reviews showing all there is with PSU, including it's cables with proper testing and a teardown.
Everyone can make PSU previews and there are a lot of people who make partial reviews but only few who are credible reviewers.
Those few credible reviewers include Aris (TH) and Oklahoma Wolf (JonnyGuru). Steve Burke (GamersNexus) is also trying to get into PSU review scene but i haven't followed him on that and don't know how he's doing. But Steve's in-depth and detailed review methodology of other PC components may make him a good and credible PSU reviewer as well.
Mufasa reviews are all over the board and so inconsistent that he can't be considered as credible PSU reviewer, even if there wasn't a language barrier in-between. So, there's that.
 

Mezoxin

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Mufasa reviews are far from being consistent. For example:
I agree his reviews aren't complete or detailed as top reviewers and i agree his reviews should be called partial reviews , I am in no means comparing him to them , his reviews are very brief and do lack information (consistently) as you have mentioned , he also doesn't test all protections as he he only tests OPP , he doesn't have a scoring or evaluation system , but I think his benchmarks are useful to give an indication on how the PSU performs in different load scenarios which could help in providing some sort of insight. that is if his test setup and equipment are of good quality but i am still waiting to see your opinion on that.

I do wish steve burke does do psu reviews or maybe collaborate with Aris as he already has alot of data readily available and a time tested successful methodology , sadly Aris doesn't have alot of fanbase on his youtube channel , i have only seen two videos of steve about PSU's one talking with jonny guru and another one when reviewing the great wall psu that came with the wallmart case.
 

Karadjgne

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It's taken years for Aris, Jon, OW and others of their professional level of expertise to get where they are. And Steve doesn't exactly strike me as a complete moron either, so take it for granted that he's doing his homework on exactly what's entailed in discecting a psu for a credible review, because stepping into that arena and doing as Mufasa has done with his half-baked reviews is going to hurt GN in a very competitive area, YouTube.

If ppl can't trust the review, his name and reputation go to pot. I seriously doubt Steve will do a review until he's ready to stake his reputation on the results.

Gabriel went home, Jon moved up in the world, Oklahoma retired and Aris has his hands full with other things, so unfortunately ppl like Mufasa get a larger share of views than would normally be the case. I'd love to see Steve start kicking out some solid info, the door is wide open and waiting for his input, but he's not going to step through until he's ready.

So I wish nothing but the best of luck for him in that endeavor, and like many others, will be waiting when he finally does make it happen.
 
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4745454b

Titan
Moderator
Not including cable length or pics of connectors isn't the end of the world to me. I normally skip that page unless I'm looking to buy it and want to make sure it will work with my case. I need to know if the ripple/voltage is in spec. I want to see the protections working. I want to see it run at 50C, or at 80% load for 8hrs. Cable length isn't a real reason to avoid a PSU unless something is super short.

Price is another thing that bugs me. Okwolf on JG dings a PSU 10% if the price is off. That can drop something from an A to a B. Launch price doesn't stay that high. And they have no clue if I'm buying full price or on a black friday sale. Mention the price, but it shouldn't factor into the score. I need to know the performance of the PSU. Let me worry about the cable length, price, color, noise, etc.
 

Mezoxin

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Not including cable length or pics of connectors isn't the end of the world to me. I normally skip that page unless I'm looking to buy it and want to make sure it will work with my case. I need to know if the ripple/voltage is in spec. I want to see the protections working. I want to see it run at 50C, or at 80% load for 8hrs.
I do feel the same as you regarding cable lenght , I myself can access this information readily from the product page and manual and dont need a reviewer to lay it out for me in the review , but i do understand where @Aeacus is comming from ,including the cables lenght in the review is not that important you are an experienced PC builders who knows the standard lenghth of what PSU cables should be like to fit in most cases and the seperation distances needed between sata power connectors for example that would allow for a convenient build , a competent reviewer should have a systematic method of always checking out such specifications in order not to erroneously overlook such aspects and highlight any abnormalities to alert potential buyers who lack the experience to find out for themselves

@Karadjgne
thats what i mean there is very few credible reviewers in the PSU space who are active now , and there are alot more brands that are being released nowawdays , from my very limited knowledge i see mufasa's benchmarks are a good source of insight that could help us determine how a psu performs , that is ofcourse if someone with experioence could take a look of his testbench and equipment and results of his technical benchmarks and tell us what he thinks , he seems to be focused on offering reviews on the forums for pc enthusiasts and not the average pc user and he has been like this for years , or maybe the average pc consumer in china seems to be more knowledgable in electronics than the average in usa or europe
 

Karadjgne

Titan
Herald
I looked at one of Mufasa's reviews. I looked at those whiteboard graphs. And not a single number to be seen. It's not hard to stick a psu on an oscilloscope to get wavelength patterns, but without a frame of reference, they are useless. I couldn't tell if those were 5mv spikes or 100mv spikes.

It's unfortunate he doesn't have access to solid equipment, just as unfortunate that he also lacks a set program of teardown and testing methodology, he has potential, he just doesn't apply it well.

If he took Aris, Jon's, OW's, Gabriel's reviews and learned from them, the steps taken, the degree of detail, the notice of details and minutiae of a psu review and set them in stone, followed to the letter first time, every time, things would improve. But the hop and skip approach won't work. Not for me anyway.

Kudos for trying, but he's got a lot to learn yet and this half-baked approach isn't doing him any favors in my book.
 

TJ Hooker

Glorious
Herald
I looked at one of Mufasa's reviews. I looked at those whiteboard graphs. And not a single number to be seen. It's not hard to stick a psu on an oscilloscope to get wavelength patterns, but without a frame of reference, they are useless. I couldn't tell if those were 5mv spikes or 100mv spikes.
I'm not sure which one you looked at, but for this one all the scope captures I see display the volts per division.
 
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Darkbreeze

Titan
Moderator
Not including cable length or pics of connectors isn't the end of the world to me. I normally skip that page unless I'm looking to buy it and want to make sure it will work with my case. I need to know if the ripple/voltage is in spec. I want to see the protections working. I want to see it run at 50C, or at 80% load for 8hrs. Cable length isn't a real reason to avoid a PSU unless something is super short.

Price is another thing that bugs me. Okwolf on JG dings a PSU 10% if the price is off. That can drop something from an A to a B. Launch price doesn't stay that high. And they have no clue if I'm buying full price or on a black friday sale. Mention the price, but it shouldn't factor into the score. I need to know the performance of the PSU. Let me worry about the cable length, price, color, noise, etc.

Eh, I dunno. Maybe for a regular build, but these days, with cable management and lots of routing for aesthetics being a consideration, plus with many cases requiring drives to be mounted on the backside of the motherboard tray, it is ABSOLUTELY a major consideration as to the length of and inclusion of particular cables. Also, for anybody who might be considering sleeving their cables, whether or not the cables have inline capacitors, is 100% NEED TO KNOW.
 

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