Discussion PSU recommendations and power supply discussion thread - Tom's hardware

[jim2333]

do you believe that the Corsair AX1600i is the best psu in the market/?

 

[NightHawkRMX]

ome people say that The AX1600i performs has slightly lower ripple, slightly better transient response, slightly better regulation, lower fan speeds at the same load (and with a quieter FDB fan instead of double ball-bearing), a longer hold-up time, and more peripheral connectors. The Leadex has more PCIe connectors.

do you agree or disagree??

Look up some reviews and see which has better performance. I don't have the ripple figures for each and every PSU in my head, nor do i have the PSU/equipment/knowledge to find it.

Really both are so good that there shouldn't be any noticeable difference between either. Not worth worrying about.

 

[jim2333]

do you believe that the Corsair AX1600i is the best psu in the market/?

 

[NightHawkRMX]

do you believe that the Corsair AX1600i is the best psu in the market/?

Its probably tied with a few other models IMO.

Once you get to the very top, the difference between PSU models is very small.

 

[jim2333]

is there tier list to see please/?

 

[Rogue Leader]

is there tier list to see please/?

There is no tier list. STOP spamming this thread asking the same question over and over. If you need PSU advice for your particular build, start your own thread. THis thread is for PSU hardware discussion. You've asked the same question 8 times now, and have gotten the same answer more than once. Its ENOUGH.

 

[Darkbreeze]

Agreed. Asking a question is one thing. Asking it 8 times is beyond unnecessary AND if you were not going to believe the advice you were offered here when you asked the question, it was a waste of everybody's time to even ask it in the first place. If you want a tier list, go to LTT. If you want advice from people who have at least some idea of the how, what and why regarding most of these units, then at least take the advice that is offered if you're going to bother to ask.

 

[Archaic59]

Whoop! Superflower entering North American market!
Superflower Article
reactions-

• Corsair
• EVGA
• Seasonic
• FSP
• me

 

[Darkbreeze]

It's about time. That is likely to shake things up at least a bit. Maybe not right this moment with all the tariff and coronavirus considerations on prices, but at some point certainly.

 

[Elisis]

is there tier list to see please/?

Honestly your best bet for a 'tier list' sort of thing is LukeSavenije's. Just be sure to pay attention to the ranking methodology:(Link removed by moderation)

 

[Darkbreeze]

Honestly your best bet for a 'tier list' sort of thing is LukeSavenije's. Just be sure to pay attention to the ranking methodology:(Link removed by moderation)

Next time you post that here, there will be repercussions. It's not a bannable offense, but it's enough to make me twitchy. We've been pretty clear about the desire to not see that list linked to here, so please do not link to it here OR elsewhere unless you want ten veteran members, both from moderation and the floor, to descend upon you with venom and fury. Or at least a big box of "don't do that anymore and here's why", because they will. Thanks.

FWIW, in my opinion, having looked at and spoken with Luke IN DEPTH regarding that list, it is laughable, fully maybe 20% as accurate as the one Dottorent used to have here at Tom's and maybe 50% as accurate as the much older Newegg tier list they used to have, and we're tired of having to rip the thing apart so while I am not against anybody pointing anybody to it privately or elsewhere, it's appreciated that you don't do so here. If you want to ensure somebody looks at ONLY decent units, point them to the first page of this thread or to a review by a reputable reviewer on Tom's hardware, JonnyGuru, TechpowerUP, etc.

One thing is for certain. Nobody ever bought a crappy power supply if the followed the recommendations on the first page of this thread. Quite a few people have purchased trash following that tier list, because there are some very questionable units listed in positions that they should never, ever, be listed on. End of story.

 

[NightHawkRMX]

We have been over this before, but I feel I should throw my opinion in here as well. With new PSU releases like Corsair CV, i get new complaints, Yipee!

IMO, looking at a tier list like that is just stupid. The only thing I can credit them for is that it says at the top of the page: "The PSU Tier List does not replace having discussions about power supplies..."

The issue with the PSU tier list is that they base it off of performance in tests, and don't give a crap about how long the unit will last. Even looking at performance alone, some of their placements don't make any sense to me.

Here are some of the issues I have:

Spoiler: Corsair CV and VS are in different tiers

The only difference between the corsair CV 2019 and VS 2017 is the efficiency. They are both based on the same HEC platform, have very similar test results, have same lower tier components inside, use the same fan, the list goes on. Even though the units are virtually identical except for a couple of efficiency percent, the CV is placed in a different tier as the VS.

This is probably due to the categories having efficiency guidelines, but this is stupid as 80+ doesn't mean a dang thing about how reliable a PSU is, only how much heat it puts out and how much power it wastes.

Spoiler: CX 2012 VS S12ii

LTT marks the SeaSonic M12ii and S12ii as "...dangerous..." and the CX2012 as "recommended for entry-level desktops".

CX and CXM 2012 were not great new. They have a reputation for being system killers (I think darkbreeze has run into this with a CX600 iirc).

The S12ii/M12ii despite being even older were some of the best models available at time of release. They are far, far more reliable and I don't think I have heard of a single failure here, whereas I have seen many CX/CXM 2012 failures, probably more than I can count on my fingers. However, LTT places it as dangerous since it is older and doesn't perform well in comparison to newer PSUs.

Next to me i have a pc with an i5 and gtx 960. Powering it is a SeaSonic M12ii GM. It is the semi modular predecessor to the m12ii evo. This psu was bought secondhand and is likely 5-10 years old. Its old enough seasonic no longer has any info for it, does not make it anymore, and does not sell replacement cables.

Still runs great. I would honestly trust it to run my main pc for years to come. They are just built like tanks. The more i see them the more i like.

Spoiler: LTT hates on seasonic

Honestly, LTT likes to hate on SeaSonic for issues that really aren't that important. For example early SeaSonic Focus power supplies had an issue that really wasn't severe but seasonic adressed and fixed with all new units, yet the people at ltt still act as the issue exists. They seem to gloss over the fact that most SeaSonic PSUs will last longer than time itself

Spoiler: S12ii VS S12iii

S12iii on paper looks like a more modern PSU than an S12ii. Sounds great, until you realize that this PSU is not actually made my SeaSonic and actually some Asian company with a poor reputation. I can't even pronounce the name.

Yet LTT only cares about performance and not potential reliability concerns, so the S12iii is placed higher than an S12ii.

Spoiler: CX unrelated info

Just a little unrelated note, I find it quite sad that the early CX PSUs were based on Seasonic S12ii and then they later swapped platforms to Great Wall and degraded quality for the 2012 models. To be fair, they did redeem themselves with the 2017 CX and 2015 CXM models bringing good quality and very modern topologies. My CX550m has been great.

 

[Elisis]

The only difference between the corsair CV 2019 and VS 2017 is the efficiency. They are both based on the same HEC platform, have very similar test results, have same lower tier components inside, use the same fan, the list goes on. Even though the units are virtually identical except for a couple of efficiency percent, the CV is placed in a different tier as the VS.

Actually, the 650W model isn't anything like VS at all. Not entirely sure on exactly what it is, but I do know it's DC-DC.

 

[Darkbreeze]

80+ doesn't mean a dang thing about how reliable a PSU is, only how much heat it puts out and how much power it wastes.

True. The only way a units efficiency should place it above another unit is if they both use the same platform, but one has tweaks or additions to the platform that allow it to achieve a higher efficiency rating. But if your tier list is not designed to account for this, like Dottorent's was, with a and b sub tiers for first and second levels, then it can't be brought into account. And even when you do bring that into account, as with for example, Prime Ultra Gold vs Prime Ultra Platinum, there will still be detractors that will likely say, and at least somewhat rightly so, that the increased efficiency doesn't actually mean one of them is any better than the other unless there are OTHER factors involved such as the Gold models have inline caps on the cabling and the Platinum models not having them. That could set them apart, but, still not in terms of performance or reliability.

It could certainly be a demarcation point for somebody though who intended to custom sleeve the cables on that unit because doing so on units with inline caps, sucks, and looks like crap afterwards in most cases. Should it set them apart on a tier list though, depends on the tier list, and that is where you start getting into another kind of disagreement AND an additional layer of complexity that is impossible to satisfy everybody on if you're trying to do so.

CX and CXM 2012 were not great new. They have a reputation for being system killers (I think darkbreeze has run into this with a CX600 iirc).

No, that was USAFRet. A CX600 killed one of his motherboards. However, we have, as a group and forum, seen countless similar instances of this or the much more common result of them just either dying or zapping a graphics card. Those older CX, CXm and CS units with the green lettering on the labels should simply not be used unless your ONLY choice is something worse like a Chieftec or Logisys or similarly bad POS like the older TR2 Thermalright units. There's just no reason to continue using them these days for users in most regions. For some, well, they might not have much choice, but I'd still struggle with saying anything other than "try to find a better unit as soon as possible".

Mezoxin summed it up well regarding this question on those units a while back in this thread when he said that not every smoker gets cancer, but that in itself is does not point to the idea that smoking doesn't cause cancer. It just means that a few people here and there are going to get lucky, but the longer you do it then obviously the greater your risk that something bad is going to happen.

The S12II and M12II 520w and 620w units are not dangerous. We've discussed this over and over again and I have previously challenged anybody who disagrees to show us one example of one of these units that has failed due to a lack of protections or because it was group regulated, and wasn't being used on a system that should have had a much higher capacity unit in place. So far, nobody has been able to do so and I have yet to see any thread or personal example of one of these units harming ANY system, and I've installed an awful lot of them over the last six years or so. At least twenty or thirty of them. Especially on AMD or pre-Haswell platforms, but even on the latest Gen Intel platforms with the appropriate C-states disabled.

Honestly, LTT likes to hate on SeaSonic for issues that really aren't that important. For example early SeaSonic Focus power supplies had an issue that really wasn't severe but seasonic adressed and fixed with all new units, yet the people at ltt still act as the issue exists. They seem to gloss over the fact that most SeaSonic PSUs will last longer than time itself[/SPOILER]

I don't know about all that, but they are certainly high quality units for the most part. As with every manufacturer these days, including FSP, Super Flower, CWT, Great Wall, and just about everybody other than Flextronics, who so far I am not aware of a bad PSU platform from although I'm sure there's something out there that's not up to their usual high quality and performance, they mostly all have both good and bad units. Seasonic has plenty of models that I wouldn't recommend, but the S12II and M12II 520 and 620w units are not among them AND the higher output 750w and 850w models from that series are not group regulated and are still very good but are themselves outdated at this point so on age alone they are probably approaching replacement time.

S12iii on paper looks like a more modern PSU than an S12ii. Sounds great, until you realize that this PSU is not actually made my SeaSonic and actually some Asian company with a poor reputation. I can't even pronounce the name.

Yet LTT only cares about performance and not potential reliability concerns, so the S12iii is placed higher than an S12ii.

And THAT is exactly part of the reason why that list is a joke. And it's also something we've already beaten to death somewhat but I'm not sure we've ever, still, seen any reputable reviews of these units and there is I'm quite sure a very good reason, several actually, for that. Obviously, Seasonic doesn't want to bring down their otherwise good name in the way that EVGA did with their B3 lineup after reviews were done. Note that EVGA has not really shone in the same light when it comes to power supplies, especially on any of their newer releases, after that. In fact, it's actually kind of gotten worse with the G5 and the "let's throw so many models out there they won't know what hit them" kind of sh-show they've been feeding the market since around that time.

Don't get me wrong, I think EVGA is a fantastic company and has the best customer support out there over all, but I am done for the most part except for whatever remains of their tried and true model lineups, until they prove through policy and reviews that they aren't trying to force feed the market these crap boxes under the umbrella of past platform successes. I don't even care if it's an OEM problem. Fix it, or quit it.

Same thing for the Seasonic S12III, I'm pretty sure. Otherwise, they would have sent everybody review samples. Plus, obviously, given the OEM for that unit, it's pretty clear that none of the reputable review sites have felt they were worth purchasing or wasting time to test, even given the fairly low prices of them. If I see something to the contrary of that through one or more REPUTABLE reviews, then I will be happy to reassess my opinion in that regard. Otherwise, you go with what you know.

And what we "know", is that when EVGA, Seasonic, XFX and others farm out platforms to third parties, they are almost always crap.

 

[Darkbreeze]

Actually, the 650W model isn't anything like VS at all. Not entirely sure on exactly what it is, but I do know it's DC-DC.

Proof?

 

[Elisis]

Proof?

 

[Elisis]

You can also have an example of a group regulated unit without UVP going out of ATX spec for voltage: http://www.jonnyguru.com/blog/2018/11/12/evga-750n1-750w-power-supply/3/

 

[Darkbreeze]

What are you talking about. He clearly says that it DOES go out of spec. So even for a group regulated unit, it's a poor choice. Not surprising giving what we know historically about those N1 units anyway. Cheap, cheap, cheap.

And that’s where this unit falls on its face. It’s group regulated, and not good at this part of things at all. Keeping in mind that the two crossload tests now count for scoring, I see mediocrity all the way across: 4.64% on the 3.3V rail, 18.20% on the 5V rail, and 10.25% on the 12V rail. The unit isn’t quite as bad at holding voltages as the the Cooler Master unit we saw in October, but is still showing out of spec readings on the 5V rail in both tests. The major difference from the CM unit is that the 12V rail only goes out of spec on the first crossload test, and the 5V rail is only just over spec on the second crossload test, so this is a slightly more functional unit than that one was.


But make no mistake… it’s still group regulated, it’s still obsolete technology, and it still isn’t well suited to modern builds. Next page, please.

 

[Elisis]

What are you talking about. He clearly says that it DOES go out of spec on multiple rails.

That's exactly what I said? I said that a GR unit without UVP does go out of spec...

 

[Darkbreeze]

Ok, fair enough. But it still doesn't mean the unit is worth a damn. There are plenty of DC-DC units out there that are junk. Simply being DC-DC doesn't mean much other than the platform probably isn't ancient.

 

[Elisis]

Ok, fair enough. But it still doesn't mean the unit is worth a damn. There are plenty of DC-DC units out there that are junk. Simply being DC-DC doesn't mean much other than the platform probably isn't ancient.

Oh, I'm not saying that CV 650W is good solely based on it being DC-DC. Heck no.
I was just stating that CV isn't entirely "VS but Bronze".

 

[Darkbreeze]

That's exactly what I said? I said that a GR unit without UVP does go out of spec...

Sorry, I read like you were saying you could have one that DOESN'T go out of spec. I was like, HUH?

 

[Darkbreeze]

Please keep the language family friendly. That is not a request. That is mandatory, at all times.

 

[Elisis]

Please keep the language family friendly. That is not a request. That is mandatory, at all times.

Yep, edited.

 

[King_V]

The S12II and M12II 520w and 620w units are not dangerous. We've discussed this over and over again and I have previously challenged anybody who disagrees to show us one example of one of these units that has failed due to a lack of protections or because it was group regulated, and wasn't being used on a system that should have had a much higher capacity unit in place. So far, nobody has been able to do so and I have yet to see any thread or personal example of one of these units harming ANY system, and I've installed an awful lot of them over the last six years or so. At least twenty or thirty of them. Especially on AMD or pre-Haswell platforms, but even on the latest Gen Intel platforms with the appropriate C-states disabled.

This actually leads me to a question... on older systems (pre-Haswell Intel, or AMD pre-Ryzen), these are absolutely fine, even with, say, a more modern video card?

I thought I'd read something about them not handling power demand changes well on modern systems, but if that's false, then, ugh, know I've erroneously passed that incorrect info on.