Discussion PSU recommendations and power supply discussion thread - Tom's hardware

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You shouldn't judge a PSU from standards of a decade ago when comparing to a modern seasonic core.

The s12ii and m12ii are some of the best group regulated units out there, but it's still group regulated and will not hold up to a decent PSU using modern topologies. Again, I was comparing it to the newer SeaSonic Core.
 

Juular

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It's like saying '55 Bel Air is a bad car since it doesn't have airbags and seat belts. While in reality, car itself isn't bad at all but at that time, those protections weren't required.
... and therefore it's bad today regardless of how good it was back then.
Also, just because PSU is group regulated doesn't instantly mean it's bad. Sure, the group regulation is older technology compared to the DC-DC but there are newer DC-DC PSUs out there that actually are much worse than the pinnacle of group regulation technology seen in S12II/ M12II EVO PSUs.
Easy to claim that when you don't provide any proofs. No it's not. Well, perhaps by 'pinnacle of group regulation technology' you mean that it's one of the most expensive group regulated units still being sold just because it's Seasonic and they (or retailers) can get away with higher price tag. Because i pretty sure there are no DC-DC units with crossload performance this bad. And even plain voltage regulation is unremarkable, standard group regulated stuff.
View: https://i.imgur.com/jj2KuEt.png

View: https://i.imgur.com/uElNkav.png

Also, those "a lot" of protections S12II / M12II EVO group regulated PSUs are missing are actually only two: OCP and OTP.
Apparently, they also either miss UVP completely or there are (or were on some batches) some problems with it's implementation. Sadly this is the only review of that platform with UVP / OVP tests since Aris didn't test protections at the time yet.
View: https://i.imgur.com/aGnhAcv.png

Well, if you load group regulated PSU in a way they aren't designed to handle, you'll get out of spec voltages.
And that's, again, why it's a bad choice for most modern PCs except very light and cheap stuff on iGPUs and something like GT1030. And while minor rails heavy crossloads are very unlikely to encounter in modern systems, 12V rail heavy crossloads are very common and while some group regulated units (including this platform perhaps) wouldn't go out of specs in this scenario in static load, i pretty sure that in dynamics the situation would be vastly different (but we don't have data on that, Aris doesn't test these types of transient load scenarios even in modern reviews sadly).

TLDR: It's a good PSU only if it's both it and your other system parts are very cheap.
 
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Seasonic

THAT being said, there ARE some units being sold with the Seasonic label that are NOT built by Seasonic. They use Seasonic designed platforms but are built by RSY. For now I believe these are limited to the S12III models, and they should be COMPLETELY avoided, because they are not good quality and in my opinion should not be allowed to carry the Seasonic name, but instead should have been relegated to the Hydrance or Energy power enterprise products which I understand are Seasonic subsidiaries that do not carry the Seasonic brand name. They are not good units based on reviews so far and should be avoided. If that changes based on new information then I will happily remove this paragraph but until then, stay away from them if you are expecting something that is "typical" of Seasonic. These S12III models, are not.

Yeah, I always see tech youtubers and people suggest and use some cheap Seasonic S12III followed by how Seasonic is a good brand that makes reliable power supplies lol.
 
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You don't seem to be very well aware that pretty much all PSUs are actually made in China, even those who claim to be Taiwanese are either just have HQ or engineering team there and still manufacture in China (like Seasonic) or have very small factory in Taiwan for some manufacturing stages whereas for the mast part manufacturing still goes on in China (like HEC). Not to mention that there are plenty of solid fully Chinese OEMs with a good product stack who don't copy stuff from anyone and develop it themselves ...

I don't doubt your comments are wholly correct but in the back streets or industrial areas, there are huge numbers of cloned units are being manufactured and they look very genuine. Inside, the parts are sub-standard and the workmanship is poor. Folks have had their homes burned to the ground for the sake of saving a few £, $ and all the others.

The export sales figures are added to China's overall export figures in the national economy so the Government doesnt need to stop those practices.

My source is a series of TV programmes here in the UK where Customs Officers open up some units of the shipments and I was disgusted at the low quality and the amount of open space in those boxes.
 
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Aeacus

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You shouldn't judge a PSU from standards of a decade ago when comparing to a modern seasonic core.

I'm not comparing. I was just pointing out the correct naming of models. Referring M12II EVO as "M12II" isn't correct since Seasonic has M12II lineup as well and it's older than S12II and M12II EVO lineups.

Easy to claim that when you don't provide any proofs.

Want proof? Sure.
However, you providing Antec unit as an example isn't the real deal since while Antec HGC is based off S12II, it is not S12II. Antec, XFX, NZXT and the like, who source their PSUs from Seasonic have ability to request changes in the source platform, to match their vision of PSU.

And now the proof:

Seasonic would like to help you there, too, with the new M12 II Evo Edition 850 watt unit. This is a Bronze certified DC-DC regulated design that looks to not break the bank.

Review: http://www.jonnyguru.com/blog/2013/09/30/seasonic-m12-ii-evo-850w-power-supply/

If you still didn't get what i was saying, i'll dumb it down for you:
  • S12II (80+ Bronze), all models - group regulated
  • M12II EVO (80+ Bronze), 520W, 620W - group regulated
  • M12II EVO (80+ Bronze), 750W, 850W - DC-DC regulated
 

Juular

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If you still didn't get what i was saying, i'll dumb it down for you:
Also, just because PSU is group regulated doesn't instantly mean it's bad. Sure, the group regulation is older technology compared to the DC-DC but there are newer DC-DC PSUs out there that actually are much worse than the pinnacle of group regulation technology seen in S12II/ M12II EVO PSUs
I might be dumb indeed because i don't get what are you trying to say by linking a review for M12II EVO X50W in reply to a question on proof about your claim that S12II/M12II X20W are 'pinnacle of group regulation technology' and there are worse DC-DC designs than it.
there are huge numbers of cloned units are being manufactured and they look very genuine. Inside, the parts are sub-standard and the workmanship is poor. Folks have had their homes burned to the ground for the sake of saving a few £, $ and all the others.
I pretty sure they aren't cloned but rather just manufactured by the same OEM. There are difference. Sure, there are some examples of nearly identical platforms used by different OEMs and some of these could be actually cloned, but some of them were licensed too.
 

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I pretty sure they aren't cloned but rather just manufactured by the same OEM. There are difference. Sure, there are some examples of nearly identical platforms used by different OEMs and some of these could be actually cloned, but some of them were licensed too.

You would be incorrect. I used to work for a company that makes the machines that make chips, DRAM, Hard drive heads, LEDs and other types of equipment like that. Most of our manufacturing was outsourced to China, in factories we originally owned that we then sold and contracted to build our equipment. We are talking large, multi million dollar machines in some cases.

Our machines would get knocked off ALL THE TIME, not only that some of these guys would market the knockoffs as our machine and then we would get called for support and get there and be like what the heck is this? Its literally normal business over there. And these are machines that are heavily patented with proprietary technology. And the quality was AWFUL compared to our machines. Then they are using these junk knockoff machines to make junk knockoff products. So if they are knocking off multi million dollar LED machines they are certainly also knocking off any and every power supply imaginable. You may not be able to find one online but they are out there, probably at trade shows or being sold locally or at sketchy computer shops.

Those are the PSUs they he is referring to.
 
... and therefore it's bad today regardless of how good it was back then.
No, it's only "bad" if you drive it as though it were a car with an airbag that can protect you from an impact that will require an airbag in order to be protected. And if you're doing that, then you're an idiot to begin with, and probably deserve to go through the windshield.

Plus, not all newer standards and requirements are always "better", by a long shot. While I'm sure air bags save lives in specific circumstances, I've PERSONALLY seen a LOT MORE people seriously hurt by them, than saved by them. If you drive off a cliff, then yeah, an airbag might be helpful. Maybe. Or if you get T-boned, it COULD help you, but most likely, if you get T-boned in such a way that there is a NEED for a side impact airbag, you are probably getting crushed by the incoming vehicle anyway and it's not going to make much difference. On the other hand, airbags that deploy when they shouldn't, and it happens pretty often (And I'm not even talking about the millions of recalls from various defective designs), might seriously injure your or your passenger, especially if your passenger happens to be a kid because a lot of the systems designed to disable the passenger airbag if the passenger is below a certain weight, as with kids that are smaller than adults but bigger than infants, often have serious problems functioning correctly. I see them in my shop all the time. Manufacturers are constantly releasing firmware revisions to try and correct these problems and there are even class action lawsuits against many of them so the fact that a required protection is newer does not necessarily mean that is is superior, beneficial or even good.

Or, that it will ever, ever, be needed. It might, under the right circumstances, but for MOST people, that circumstance is something that is exceedingly unlikely. So, having a seatbelt for a PSU is one thing, because we know that it is very likely in a variety of circumstances, that it might save your life or the life of your passenger. Airbags on the other hand, MIGHT save your life. It might also kill you. Sure, it's not a perfect comparison, but it is comparable enough to show that not everything new under the sun is necessarily necessary OR even good in some circumstances. I'm sure there are better examples, but I don't have the desire to create them right now.

I've used group regulated S12II and M12II power supplies, including various iterations of them, as well as DC-DC versions of those units in the higher power capacities, for many years, on a variety of different kinds of systems, for myself and for customers, and not a SINGLE ONE every had ANY problems associated with not having OCP or OTP.

Obviously, given the choice, it's probably better to have them than to not have them, IF you get into a situation where the conditions for needing it are met, but then again even on a variety of very good platforms from traditionally very good OEMs, there are absolutely a high number of instances where these "protections" are not configured correctly and they present either no protection at all unless you SERIOUSLY exceed the envelope where you ought to be operating anyhow, or are configured so low that they create problems even when operating under normal conditions for the devices in question. Misconfigured protections actually seems to PROVABLY and in real world situations, cause more problems than the lack of them ever has. And again, not saying they shouldn't be there, but I AM saying that just because they ARE there, does not automatically make a unit that has them better than some other unit that doesn't. Yes, I AM saying THAT.

And as far as Saga Lout is concerned, you need to cease and desist on that front. I assure you, he was playing around with power supplies long before you were ever pulled screaming from your mama. While some of the things he says might not seem like common sense to you on the surface, I assure you that he rarely says anything that isn't either factual or distinctly provable, or is based in experience rooted in MANY years of living as a systems builder, integrator and repair technician, professionally, for a living. Usually if he says a thing, you can be pretty sure that it's not just some BS coming out of his mouth. You didn't go too far, at all, but let's make sure we don't either because respect is compulsory here, for you, and everyone. Thanks.
 

Juular

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No, it's only "bad" if you drive it as though it were a car with an airbag that can protect you from an impact that will require an airbag in order to be protected. And if you're doing that, then you're an idiot to begin with, and probably deserve to go through the windshield.
Please cease on lengthy car analogies, we're discussing PSUs here, not cars. I'll just say that your analogy sounds ridiculous from bottom up, if i'm driving right now in modern world with 100kmh speeds on highway and millions cars on the streets i'd want maximum protections, seat belt, airbags, all kinds, crumple zones and all that controlled with on-board computer to account for everything can be accounted in the current generation. I wouldn't want to drive 100 years old box shaped car when even agriculture machinery today has higher safety standards. Neither i want to somehow drive that box in a way that would avoid ever engaging in accidents, i guess by not driving it at all ? Same goes for PSUs.
I've used group regulated S12II and M12II power supplies, including various iterations of them, as well as DC-DC versions of those units in the higher power capacities, for many years, on a variety of different kinds of systems, for myself and for customers, and not a SINGLE ONE every had ANY problems associated with not having OCP or OTP.
If you didn't notice i were talking about problems with UVP on that platform not OCP and OTP which are certainly good to have but not nearly as vital.
on a variety of very good platforms from traditionally very good OEMs, there are absolutely a high number of instances where these "protections" are not configured correctly and they present either no protection at all
Sure, that's part of the problem, i do not consider these 'good' platforms good if they do not have absolute minimum of working protections (UVP, OVP, OPP), end of the story.
And as far as Saga Lout is concerned, you need to cease and desist on that front. I assure you, he was playing around with power supplies long before you were ever pulled screaming from your mama.
Ah, good old argument, 'i am / he's older than you so therefore i am / he's right', no, it didn't work. Again, if you didn't notice i weren't trying to insult anybody which you just did, neither i were replying to you in the first place so i have no idea why you were so triggered, a habit on insulting people i guess ? It's not the first time, and not the last given that you're moderator here.
 

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I did not know there were 750 or 850w versions of the M12ii, as I have yet to see a single one ANYWHERE.

If you want to see living proof of M12II-850 EVO then look no further than in my signature and Haswell build since the very same PSU is powering it. And has done so for the past 5 years. :sol:

I might be dumb indeed because i don't get what are you trying to say by linking a review for M12II EVO X50W in reply to a question on proof about your claim that S12II/M12II X20W are 'pinnacle of group regulation technology' and there are worse DC-DC designs than it.

The M12II-850 EVO was linked to show that not all M12II EVO series PSUs are group regulated.
 
a habit on insulting people i guess ? It's not the first time, and not the last given that you're moderator here.

Two things. One, don't tell me what to "cease" on, again, ever. You are not an admin or a moderator and are in fact even not an ambassador as far as that goes, and have no place to be telling ANYBODY what they can, can't, should, shouldn't or mightn't say or do anywhere on this forum including the thread where your tier list resides. Got it? Thanks.


Secondly, playing the victim is an old game, and one we are well familiar with. Don't do it. It's a good way to get gone quick. I didn't say ANYTHING insulting to you, at all. Unless of course you happened to be insulted by the idea of having been pulled screaming from your mama, as we all were. It's a fact. Get over it. You weren't cloned in a lab, or maybe you were, I don't really know. I'm assuming you were not however, so that singular comment shouldn't have been in any way insulting to you or anybody else, and is in fact a pretty common literary adage which is widely used and so far as I know has never been offensive nor an inaccurate accounting of the fact of birth, unless perhaps somebody was particularly unusual in that they came into the world quietly which is certainly not usually the case. So, not an insult, but a statement of fact.

As far as your previous post was concerned, yes it was an attempt to be insulting. You were insinuating that a person with decades more experience working with hardware, building, repairing and troubleshooting computer systems than you, or even I for that matter, was clueless about a factual statement regarding power supplies. It had nothing at ALL to do with him simply "being older" and therefore right.

And the reason you made that statement, and the reason you make similar condescending statements, is because you believe yourself to be better, or on a higher level, or whatever it is you believe, and that the rest of us are ignorant, backwater hicks, when it comes to this area of expertise. It's exactly what has caused you problems before here, and it's exactly what is likely to result in you being shown the door if you can't get a handle on it. You're not better than anybody else here, regardless of what you do or do not know, and you would do well to remember that.

Treating EVERYBODY with at least basic respect, but especially a moderator who has made no derogatory comments towards you and was simply stating something from his own experiences, is compulsory, as I said before. You'll either extend that respect to others around you here without the holier than thou attitude, or we'll handle not doing so as we would for any other member. That is also not an insult or a threat. It is, again, a simple matter of fact.

You guys know how I feel about your entire group, but I've been trying hard to extend a fair measure of live and let live to you all, being as civil as possible, but you especially are making it very hard to do so. You might think about that before next you comment.
 

Juular

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Two things. One, don't tell me what to "cease" on, again, ever. You are not an admin or a moderator and are in fact even not an ambassador as far as that goes, and have no place to be telling ANYBODY what they can, can't, should, shouldn't or mightn't say or do anywhere on this forum including the thread where your tier list resides. Got it? Thanks.
I have a hint for you, you can't do that either but you did.
Treating EVERYBODY with at least basic respect, but especially a moderator
What's so special about a moderator so that i should treat you with respect and you shouldn't treat me or anyone else here as such ? Because i've personally, with a short time on this forum witnessed a good amount of such examples from you.
As far as your previous post was concerned, yes it was an attempt to be insulting.
You have a very strange definition of insulting then, because telling people that they aren't right, at least in my opinion is not an insult but a discussion. But telling people things like 'should i dumb it down to you', 'cease and desist because he's older than you' are, rather direct ones at that in comparison with the idea you imply that i think that everyone around me are wrong and i'm right, i didn't say that, it's completely possible that my points are wrong and if you belive they are you can argue with me with facts, reviews, data, not the way you did. Because i didn't just say that he's wrong because i'm right, i cited reviews in support of my points.
being as civil as possible
That word isn't applicable to your behavior.

I hereby leave this conversation, you want an echo chamber you get it, good luck.
 

King_V

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And since EVGA CLEARLY does not have enough low end models yet, here is another.

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/evga-p...=198&refdomain=pcpartpicker.com&skuId=6411819
The EVGA W3.
picard-facepalm.jpg
 
I knew the W1 is a thing. They are everywhere and I have used one myself.
I only heard of the W2, never actually seen one for sale.
And now the W3. Given the box design and fan cutout in the PSU (looks like a 2019 EVGA gd), it is definitely a "new" model.

The W3 does appear to look a little different on the inside compared to the W1 when looking at the rear venting. Maybe something promising, though I have my doubts.
 

4745454b

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I this day and age there is no reason for an 80+ white unit. Really. Bronze or go home. Pre covid these units were $30-50, with good gold units in the $60-80 range. At $30 dollars online, why bother with a white? Crazy.
 
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Vic 40

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Guess it's just marketing. They see many people go for such low price units so they provide. Hope their name will make up for any doubt one would have when looking at it.
Most wil likely do fine for people who buy them for usage in some internet/email pc as replacement and the % that gives problems isn't enough to bother them. They just replace them which is cheaper than fixing.
That something else might go in the proces of the psu crapping out doesn't seem to bother them. With abit of luck will protections implemented save people from that happening.
 

Rogue Leader

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I see what hes saying in that you should NEVER as even the vaguest of enthusiast buy a 80+ white unit. But i see why they exist, and why there are so many of them out there. We are a microcosm of enthusiasts, a lot more cheap junk units get moved than good ones, because I'd say more than 70% of all PC builders don't know, don't give a hoot, or are too cheap to buy a good one. Seasonic, arguably the "best" PSU brand has been out of stock on almost all models for months, combo of demand and their small size being unable to keep up with it, where other good PSUs out there like better Corsairs and EVGA have been available if you're patient.
 

BlueCat57

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What defines a "good" power supply?

I have two Antec Earthwatts 380W that are 11-years old and have never given me a problem. Are they "good" power supplies?

I have never had a power supply fail on me. I own 3 or 4 that are each several years old. Are they "good" power supplies? Several of them ran 24/7 for years.

The original post is 2-years old so are all of those "recommendations" now invalid?

I think that what most people are looking for are either:

1. Definitive recommendations for "good" CURRENT models. And the REASONS why they are "good".
or
2. A list of SPECIFIC specifications to look for in a power supply to determine if it is a "good" one. Like "Japanese" whatevers. Or this or that type of component.

Last time I visited this thread, one recommendation was to expect a power supply to last ONLY as long as its warranty. The longer, the "good"er. Is that a valid measure? Or does a "bad" manufacturer offering a 10-year warranty on a specific model still make THAT model a "bad" choice?

What exactly are we trying to protect against by buying a "good" power supply?

This thread is now over 50 pages long. I understand the effort needed to present an updated version of the Original Post, but maybe it is time to start a new thread. I do NOT possess the expertise and years of experience with dozens of power supplies to provide a definitive post of recommendations, but maybe it wouldn't be too time-consuming to provide a post that would address #2 and the warranty question.
 
What "defines" a "good" power supply is the use of quality internal components including (Generally speaking) all Japanese capacitors (Not always the case, but it's usually what we like to see), a high quality fan, good quality mosfets and a platform that is both modern and can, during reviews, achieve levels of ripple, noise and voltage regulation that are at least within spec at 40°C or higher but preferably can do much better than just "spec", and has all of the preferred protections in place AND configured correctly.

So basically, any unit that can pass a stringent tear down and testing regiment and come out the other side with a good or great score.

What you are trying to protect against by buying a good power supply, is best answered by reading this.

https://www.corsair.com/us/en/blog/why-does-a-better-power-supply-mean-a-better-computer-experience


And this:

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/low-cost-psu-pc-power-supply,2862.html