- Jan 1, 2018
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Thank you for replying to my comments and questions.
Here are the takeaways I gleaned from those replies. These are for those of us that are enthusiastic about building our own systems but don’t have an unlimited budget.
1. Power supplies are “expensive” right now due to trade issues and manufacturing challenges. If you don’t need one right now, pick out what you want to buy when you do and wait for the pricing to change. It may go up, but things will certainly change.
When I broke down Darkbreeze’s original post I found that you could buy a 500 to 699 Watt “recommended” power supply for around $100. This would be the “entry” level model from one of his “recommended” brands.
While I limited the upper end to less than 700 Watts, it wouldn’t surprise me to see a “bargain” on a quality unit with more watts. So set a price point shop until you find one that meets quality, specifications and price.
2. “If you have no graphics card or a slot powered card with a very low demand system, then there is little reason to spend more than 30-60 dollars on a power supply unless you might be inclined to add upgrades at some point.”
Think ahead. What will your systems look like during the “life” of the power supply? Will you be adding a gaming graphics card? Which leads to the next valuable takeaway.
3. “The warranty is the length of time you should "expect" the unit to last.” While “parts is parts” applies to “commodity” components, the quality of the parts used in power supplies varies greatly. If you don’t want to get into the details then Darkbreeze’s guidance on brands and models can guide your search. See the post where I broke down his original post by brands and series to find a starting point for your search.
4. Most important takeaway from Darkbreeze’s guidance is:
Buy the best QUALITY power supply that has the wattage you need.
See my comment above where I broke down Darkbreeze’s guidance by brand and series. That shouldn’t replace your own research but with a couple of years worth and over 40 pages of comments in this thread, it is a place to start.
We’re here to find “simple” answers. I’ve already spent over 3 hours researching power supplies. What is the “opportunity cost” of that time for you?
Here are the takeaways I gleaned from those replies. These are for those of us that are enthusiastic about building our own systems but don’t have an unlimited budget.
1. Power supplies are “expensive” right now due to trade issues and manufacturing challenges. If you don’t need one right now, pick out what you want to buy when you do and wait for the pricing to change. It may go up, but things will certainly change.
When I broke down Darkbreeze’s original post I found that you could buy a 500 to 699 Watt “recommended” power supply for around $100. This would be the “entry” level model from one of his “recommended” brands.
While I limited the upper end to less than 700 Watts, it wouldn’t surprise me to see a “bargain” on a quality unit with more watts. So set a price point shop until you find one that meets quality, specifications and price.
2. “If you have no graphics card or a slot powered card with a very low demand system, then there is little reason to spend more than 30-60 dollars on a power supply unless you might be inclined to add upgrades at some point.”
Think ahead. What will your systems look like during the “life” of the power supply? Will you be adding a gaming graphics card? Which leads to the next valuable takeaway.
3. “The warranty is the length of time you should "expect" the unit to last.” While “parts is parts” applies to “commodity” components, the quality of the parts used in power supplies varies greatly. If you don’t want to get into the details then Darkbreeze’s guidance on brands and models can guide your search. See the post where I broke down his original post by brands and series to find a starting point for your search.
4. Most important takeaway from Darkbreeze’s guidance is:
Buy the best QUALITY power supply that has the wattage you need.
See my comment above where I broke down Darkbreeze’s guidance by brand and series. That shouldn’t replace your own research but with a couple of years worth and over 40 pages of comments in this thread, it is a place to start.
We’re here to find “simple” answers. I’ve already spent over 3 hours researching power supplies. What is the “opportunity cost” of that time for you?
This takeaway is going to be more “controversial” so I’m offering it in a separate comment. This isn’t meant for experts and hard-core gamers, but for those frugal system builders who just want to build something that will last and that they can enjoy for several years before having to upgrade it.
Many that come to Tom’s Forums are looking for SPECIFIC answers and solutions. They are NOT “hard-core gamers” and have LIMITED budgets for their builds and upgrades.
Due to their limited budgets, they have to make hard choices. “I want a GTX 2080, but I don’t have a big enough budget for a Titanium PSU. What do I do?” (Of course, you buy a GTX 2070 and a Gold PSU.)
Based on some of the replies I received here, I thought I’d breakdown “Tom’s Best PC Builds” to see what percentage of each build the power supply would represent and how that cost compared to other components selected. Of course, the format of that article has changed and there wasn’t a breakdown of pricing for ALL of the components as there has been in the past, but here are my observations.
For the $500, $1,000 and $1,500 builds (the most likely budgets for casual gamers) the power supply is as costly as the CPU, Motherboard, RAM or drive. Cases are likely to be about the same too but a case “failure” isn’t as likely. And monitors aren’t even mentioned but you would expect to spend $100 (24” 1920x1080) to $300 (a 4K TV) for something to play on.
The MAIN component to consider in your choice of power supply is the Graphics Card. Currently, “gaming” cards start at about $300 (GTX 16XX but of course as I write this a GTX 2060 is on sale for $310. If I didn’t need to spend $100 on a power supply to use that card I might buy one. See, hard choices.) and go UP quickly from there. That base level card recommends a 500 Watt power supply. The $750 GTX 2080 recommends a 650 Watt minimum.
Based on that range of requirements and pricing, your power supply will represent about 15% to 20% of your TOTAL build. I guess you could look at it as “I’m paying 20% for “insurance”.”
Most important takeaway from Darkbreeze’s guidance is:
Buy the best QUALITY power supply that has the wattage you need.
(OK, now someone can define “need”. The “minimum recommended” is likely different from what you actually “need”.)
I’m suggesting that you should expect to pay 15% to 20% of your build budget to buy a quality power supply.
Many that come to Tom’s Forums are looking for SPECIFIC answers and solutions. They are NOT “hard-core gamers” and have LIMITED budgets for their builds and upgrades.
Due to their limited budgets, they have to make hard choices. “I want a GTX 2080, but I don’t have a big enough budget for a Titanium PSU. What do I do?” (Of course, you buy a GTX 2070 and a Gold PSU.)
Based on some of the replies I received here, I thought I’d breakdown “Tom’s Best PC Builds” to see what percentage of each build the power supply would represent and how that cost compared to other components selected. Of course, the format of that article has changed and there wasn’t a breakdown of pricing for ALL of the components as there has been in the past, but here are my observations.
For the $500, $1,000 and $1,500 builds (the most likely budgets for casual gamers) the power supply is as costly as the CPU, Motherboard, RAM or drive. Cases are likely to be about the same too but a case “failure” isn’t as likely. And monitors aren’t even mentioned but you would expect to spend $100 (24” 1920x1080) to $300 (a 4K TV) for something to play on.
The MAIN component to consider in your choice of power supply is the Graphics Card. Currently, “gaming” cards start at about $300 (GTX 16XX but of course as I write this a GTX 2060 is on sale for $310. If I didn’t need to spend $100 on a power supply to use that card I might buy one. See, hard choices.) and go UP quickly from there. That base level card recommends a 500 Watt power supply. The $750 GTX 2080 recommends a 650 Watt minimum.
Based on that range of requirements and pricing, your power supply will represent about 15% to 20% of your TOTAL build. I guess you could look at it as “I’m paying 20% for “insurance”.”
Most important takeaway from Darkbreeze’s guidance is:
Buy the best QUALITY power supply that has the wattage you need.
(OK, now someone can define “need”. The “minimum recommended” is likely different from what you actually “need”.)
I’m suggesting that you should expect to pay 15% to 20% of your build budget to buy a quality power supply.
- Dec 26, 2012
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No. A very good or better power supply is cheap. You are looking at 7+ years warranty. You are looking at protective circuitry out the wazoo. You are looking at ripple as close to actual DC as it gets. You are looking at honesty in output claims and size.
What's expensive is replacing motherboards, gpus, ram, drives, entire pc's, your house.
Initial investment in long term insurance is nothing compared to the investment in risk a low grade, sub-grade or psu shaped doorstop can and unfortunately far too often offers.
What's expensive is replacing motherboards, gpus, ram, drives, entire pc's, your house.
Initial investment in long term insurance is nothing compared to the investment in risk a low grade, sub-grade or psu shaped doorstop can and unfortunately far too often offers.
- May 27, 2010
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Laptop say what?
I know what the topic was. Just saying that they are not lazy for not wanting to put the rails in the PSU like it is impossible to do otherwise. Limited usage doesn't even make sense.
Every laptop is taking ~20 volts, then producing 12V, 5V, and 3.3V for all of its internal functions, including powering other devices over USB, in a smaller package than a typical desktop motherboard. Not like it is impossible. And there are plenty of, stupid, motherboards out there that do this as well. See many small form factor designs, and even mATX from Dell and others.
Basically the 12V only supply is an external brick with a fan...
Not saying it is the best path, but a powerful 12V only supply covers almost everything in typical desktop computer. It has the VRMs to get the really low voltages already, what are a few more for 5V and 3.3V with some expectation of reasonable power delivery. Big heatsinks and fans already making their way back on to motherboards...
- Jun 24, 2014
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Sorry, but I don't agree with your assessment of my original post in this thread OR any of the replies you've received, at all. I appreciate that you've asked, and been respectful mostly, but you seem to almost be riding right on the edge of insult/snark without actually going there, in the way you've presented things. If that's not been your intention, it has certainly felt that way. Either way, here is the reality.
THIS is an entry level power supply for anybody with an average mainstream gaming card, right now.
It's a pretty decent power supply. Not fantastic, not terrible. Definitely not garbage, absolutely not high end. Sure as hell nowhere near a hundred bucks.
PCPartPicker Part List
Power Supply: Corsair CX (2017) 650 W 80+ Bronze Certified ATX Power Supply ($59.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $59.99
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-02-04 17:36 EST-0500
This is a very good unit that could be had that would run just about any single graphics card system that is currently being used from among current gen graphics cards and CPUs. IT is around a hundred bucks.
PCPartPicker Part List
Power Supply: Antec Earthwatts Gold Pro 650 W 80+ Gold Certified Semi-modular ATX Power Supply ($94.99 @ Amazon)
Total: $94.99
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-02-04 17:39 EST-0500
Things go UP from there. If you want a better unit, with better specifications, lower ripple, better voltage regulation, better capacitor selection, longer warranty, PROBABLY fewer chances that YOUR sample will have problems, higher efficiency (Gold, Platinum, Titanium) or anything else that is likely to increase the price such as a very high end fan with silent operation, RGB, etc. then the prices will certainly go up from there aside from the possibility of any sales or rebates which can change from day to day or week to week.
If you just want to bash something, go take a look at the tier list over on Linus tech tips. I have recommendations on units that if you buy one, you won't have purchased a piece of junk no matter which one you buy. That is all. It is simply "buy one of these and no matter which one you get, you won't end up with a turd". Over there, I won't even go into that, because it's already been ridden into the ground too many times but you are welcome to go torment them if you wish.
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- Jun 24, 2014
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The problem I see with this is that PSU manufacturers are not going to want to reduce the cost of units because of it, they are going to want to INCREASE the cost, because they will have to abandon designs they have sunk millions of dollars into AND they will have to redesign for the new standards. Then, motherboard manufacturers are going to want to INCREASE the cost because now THEY have to redesign everything they've been doing as "typical" for decades now, for the most part, plus having to also ADD new components to the board AND find a way to do it while not affecting the stability or thermal capabilities of designs that are already beginning to seriously toe the line in that area. At least, that's how I'm envisioning it. Maybe I'm wrong, but if so I'm not understanding how. Would certainly not be the first time though.
- Dec 22, 2014
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Agree,
As I mentioned before, the spec just came out and ONE aftermarket unit has showed up. Call me in a few years when everyone changes their designs over to support 12v only PSUs then I will believe that change is happening. Its a big difference and change and loss of support for legacy hardware. Until then there has been no indication that everything will change.
- May 27, 2010
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I agree completely. It would be a total shift in design, but I can see it happening. Not like the technology is new.
I'm not sure if it was this thread, but I did make similar comments before. PSU designers are the ones who stand to lose the most. I believe I covered that the real winners would be whoever manufactures the best/cheapest AC to 12VDC components. And they certainly have enough clout to tell the PSU designers to get bent. Factories that actually build power supplies would have to re-tool, but all their staff would basically keep their jobs (unless they go for nearly full automation during the retool)
Wouldn't necessarily drop support for 'legacy' hardware. Remember all those AT/ATX power supplies, happened before. Granted, the standards aren't that different, but a standard ATX still outputs 12V, so it could also retain 5V and 3.3V for a while during any transition period. This would be a transition lasting a decade or more, so no one would immediately lose their business model. And what do you know, you can still get AT power supplies.
Prime even: https://www.amazon.com/Athena-Power-AP-AT30-Supply-Connector/dp/B0042P2IIG
I'm not sure if it was this thread, but I did make similar comments before. PSU designers are the ones who stand to lose the most. I believe I covered that the real winners would be whoever manufactures the best/cheapest AC to 12VDC components. And they certainly have enough clout to tell the PSU designers to get bent. Factories that actually build power supplies would have to re-tool, but all their staff would basically keep their jobs (unless they go for nearly full automation during the retool)
Wouldn't necessarily drop support for 'legacy' hardware. Remember all those AT/ATX power supplies, happened before. Granted, the standards aren't that different, but a standard ATX still outputs 12V, so it could also retain 5V and 3.3V for a while during any transition period. This would be a transition lasting a decade or more, so no one would immediately lose their business model. And what do you know, you can still get AT power supplies.
Prime even: https://www.amazon.com/Athena-Power-AP-AT30-Supply-Connector/dp/B0042P2IIG
- Dec 22, 2014
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Right, I meant it more along the lines of more than a new spec needs to be a released for this to happen. Look at SATA Express. The standard came out, heck even most motherboards had the ports for it, but there were no drives ever released for it.
Until the market adopts it and shifts in that direction, I'm not calling it a "groundbreaking change", and even if it does, its not "groundbreaking" by any means, as you mentioned laptop power systems are already designed this way.
Hey, as a suggestion (I guess mostly directed at @Darkbreeze - as newer, know good/excellent models come out, could they be added to the first post in this thread? It would kind of be helpful, especially when trying to point people to suggestions, to be able to have the summary of "known good" right up at the beginning of the thread, rather than asking them to wade through 40-odd pages, or possibly different threads.
Possibly under each paragraph summary of a brand, a bulleted "recommended" and a bulleted "avoid" list (or JUST a short recommended list and skip the avoid when it's a "this brand has one or two good models, the rest are crap" scenario). Possibly making the recommended bullet list in order of quality, for those who want to be able to choose between Great vs SuperAwesome levels... (or something like that).
ie: I only just found out today, in another thread on this forum, that the Corsair Vengeance PSU is highly regarded and high quality.
Possibly under each paragraph summary of a brand, a bulleted "recommended" and a bulleted "avoid" list (or JUST a short recommended list and skip the avoid when it's a "this brand has one or two good models, the rest are crap" scenario). Possibly making the recommended bullet list in order of quality, for those who want to be able to choose between Great vs SuperAwesome levels... (or something like that).
ie: I only just found out today, in another thread on this forum, that the Corsair Vengeance PSU is highly regarded and high quality.
- Jun 24, 2014
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When you have specific recommendations for or against something, please feel free to make your argument here or by PM. I will absolutely consider it. That doesn't mean I'm GOING to follow every recommendation, or change the format of the front page, but I'm reasonable in regard to ideas, I'm just not terribly flexible when it comes to implementing them. LOL.
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While not bad idea for the ease of read, it sure does sound like a PSU tier list... and we all know how that went.
- Dec 26, 2012
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Most of the issue with lists like that (to me anyway) is the subjectivity of opinion. Sure, you can rank a psu as Great, but for what and for whom? A Corsair VS (for instance) is a very popular model in the Middle to Eastern markets and while most view it as sub-par, it's a Great psu for a cheap OEM replacement for grandma's 5 yr old web surfer. She doesn't need anything extravagant or mind-blowingly over the top performance like the RM or better series.
- Jun 24, 2014
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Not going to happen.
I'm absolutely willing to add ANY units that anybody among you wants added IF you can point me to a review, a REPUTABLE review, showing that it is a good unit that we can in good conscience recommend, whether from the use case of entry level slot powered gaming all the way up to high powered flagship overclocked full RGB ten drive eight fan powered monsters, that is CURRENTLY available in a major market somewhere, if it's not already on the front page. Or at least consider it. But there will never be a tier list up there that was created by my hand because it is simply too much work and there are too many whiners out there, even very knowledgeable whiners, that will want to snivel and whine about placement, and I don't have time for that crap.
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- Apr 29, 2006
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I've mentioned before I want to make a PSU list. But it's only going to have three categories. Safe to run, safe to use for awhile/in a pinch, don't even let in your house. Simple and no fighting about how PSUx is better than PSUy because X scored .1 points higher at JG. Should be simple to maintain the list as well. New PSU comes out, just dump it in the correct grouping with the others.
I thought more along the lines of within each of the brand names a quick list of "the known good ones" and "the known bad ones" (or "buy this" and "not that" models within each brand), either before, or after, the details explanation about the brand overall that currently exists.
It may not necessarily be worthwhile for all brands, though - particularly the "NOTHING from this brand is good" ones. 😬
- Dec 26, 2012
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But again, that's subjective. You could read that as using 550w CX-M as being ok on a $1500 pc because it's on the 'buy this' list, or a minimum of a RMx for grandma's websurfer since the CX series wasn't listed as 'buy this'. There's far too many variables, everything from opinion to budget to market to pc requirements and expectations for a '1-size fits all' list, leaving the simplest and best method of determination by simply asking what's the best doable fit for your particular pc.
Ask first, buy later. Not the other way around.
Ask first, buy later. Not the other way around.
- Jun 24, 2014
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You will STILL get detractors and argument-ers, because units you put in the ugly will bring people who argue, like we used to see in the old tier list (Arguing for page after page) that their POS has lasted for ten years and you don't know what you are talking about because it is "good PSU".
Or because they HAD that PSU and it failed, so it belongs in the ugly list even though 99.9% of people using that model have never had any issues with it. But the same could be said for what I've done so really it doesn't matter I guess. At least this way nobody can say I've put something on the wrong tier. It is simply recommended or not.
Or because they HAD that PSU and it failed, so it belongs in the ugly list even though 99.9% of people using that model have never had any issues with it. But the same could be said for what I've done so really it doesn't matter I guess. At least this way nobody can say I've put something on the wrong tier. It is simply recommended or not.
Oh, yeah, in my view, this would be, like the rest of the first post in this thread, an "IN MY OPINION/MY RECOMMENDATION" kind of thing.
Of course, dumpster fires are pretty universal, I imagine. And . . uh, oh ,right, even dumpster fires get defended. I've found myself in at least one or two threads about someone arguing, quite forcefully, in favor of utter crap.
Of course, dumpster fires are pretty universal, I imagine. And . . uh, oh ,right, even dumpster fires get defended. I've found myself in at least one or two threads about someone arguing, quite forcefully, in favor of utter crap.
- Jan 1, 2018
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Even a price based psu tier list wouldn't work.
Too many variables. Like an rx570 can draw more power than a 2060 in some cases, even though the 570 is a third the price.
The ltt tier list is supposedly based on numbers now, but that results in reliable psus like a seasonic m12ii being placed above unreliable psus like a corsair cxm green.
Too many variables. Like an rx570 can draw more power than a 2060 in some cases, even though the 570 is a third the price.
The ltt tier list is supposedly based on numbers now, but that results in reliable psus like a seasonic m12ii being placed above unreliable psus like a corsair cxm green.
Oh yeah, I wasn't at all suggesting a tier list.
Just, for example, under the Corsair section (which is pretty much almost there anyway):
Then under the Seasonic section somewhere:
My initial thought was that the "lists" would go right under the brand heading, then the detailed explanation that currently exists for those of us who like to read up on the what and why.
There are some brands where this wouldn't be practical or applicable, I suppose.
Just, for example, under the Corsair section (which is pretty much almost there anyway):
- Recommended: TX, RM, RMx, RMi, HX, HXi, AX or AXi
- Acceptable: CXm, CX
- Avoid: VS, CX with green label
Then under the Seasonic section somewhere:
- Recommended: Focus, Prime
- Acceptable: S12II (for older systems)
- Avoid: S12III
My initial thought was that the "lists" would go right under the brand heading, then the detailed explanation that currently exists for those of us who like to read up on the what and why.
There are some brands where this wouldn't be practical or applicable, I suppose.
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But even then, i could argue.
The corsair vs grey models are not great, but for a gtx 1650 super which doesn't draw much power, a vs grey 550w would be pretty enough. So maybe not avoid altogether
The corsair vs grey models are not great, but for a gtx 1650 super which doesn't draw much power, a vs grey 550w would be pretty enough. So maybe not avoid altogether
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