[SOLVED] Preventing stored SSDs from losing data

[tmpc1066]

When storing an SSD with data on it, my understanding is that it must be powered up periodically to prevent data loss. The questions that I can't seem to find a definitive answer to is whether it needs to be connected to a computer when powering up, and whether it actually needs to be read by the computer. If this is true, must the entire drive be read?

I also read one source that indicated that the housekeeping firmware in some SSDs will automatically read all of the data and rewrite it if it finds that it is weak. This same source indicated that this will vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. Anybody know anything about this or where I can find definitive answers?

You may wonder why I'm using SSDs instead of HDDs. The reason is that these aren't normal backups. They are drop in replacement boot drives containing authorized licensed installs of music software I own. It's an insurance policy against the software not being supported someday or the installers not running on the old operating systems I need for this software. I have backup computers as well.

By the way, these are Mac drives if it matters.

Am I nuts? You bet!

 

[USAFRet]

One would expect that it needs to be connected to "a computer".
This could easily be done with a USB-SATA docking station, instead of an actual internal installation.

Data retention if powered off?
I have an old Kingston HyperX3k 120GB. Sat in a desk drawer for 2+ years.
Powering it up...all original data was there. Of course, don't take that one data point as gospel.

And there are other ways to retain those boot drives.
Full drive Images from Macrium, stored on ANY device, will allow easy reconstitution to a replacement drive.
Click click...30 minutes, recovered to some new drive. Or a VM if desired.
Store those on a large HDD or NAS.

I have boot drive images going back several years which would, if recovering to the same motherboard/CPU, boot up just fine.

 

[tmpc1066]

Hi USAFRet. I hope you are well.

The problem is that the software protection scheme uses info particular to the drive and the computer it's installed in. So, even if I installed a disk image on another drive and installed it in the original authorized computer, it wouldn't work. I'd have to authorize it on that drive, in that computer. This is also the reason for the SSD backups. If disaster strikes, and I can no longer authorize the software, I will be running that particular drive in the computer. And as I said, I not only have an authorized backup of the computer's drive, I have an authorized second computer / drive with an authorized backup of that drive, as well. Belt, suspenders, AND duct tape!!!

 

[USAFRet]

Ah, OK.
That makes sense (sort of..I dislike protection schemes like that).

But...get a USB -SATA dock, plug it in once in a while (frequency unknown)...all should be OK.
Don't have to boot from it. Just power it up.

 

[tmpc1066]

Ah, OK.
That makes sense (sort of..I dislike protection schemes like that).

I don't like it either, but outside of de-soldering and reprogramming or swapping ID chips, I have no choice. (I saw a guy on YouTube do this.)

So, as far as you know just powering the SSD up won't do the trick. It has to be connected to a computer. Do you know of any definitive source(s) for this information?

 

[USAFRet]

I don't like it either, but outside of de-soldering and reprogramming or swapping ID chips, I have no choice. (I saw a guy on YouTube do this.)

So, as far as you know just powering the SSD up won't do the trick. It has to be connected to a computer. Do you know of any definitive source(s) for this information?

No definitive sources.

But powering it up with anything but a computer would seem to be far more work.
A $25 docking station, plug them in for a while...done.

I have one of these:
https://www.amazon.com/Cable-Matters-Docking-Station-Support/dp/B0099TX7O4
Works just great.
No cables to mess with, no possibility of the system trying to boot from it.

 

[tmpc1066]

But powering it up with anything but a computer would seem to be far more work.

Not really. You just plug it into a USB power supply. I just don't know if it needs to be mounted on a computer to do internally whatever it has to do. My fear with mounting the drive on a computer is it doing some subtle thing to the drive that screws up my scheme.

But, the thing I worry about with just powering it up with a power supply is that, if it is re-writing some data when I turn the power off, could that corrupt it? I would hope they'd have internal safeguards to prevent that, but powering down without enough warning and protecting data can be tricky. Unmounting a drive in a computer gives it a heads up that the end is coming. Hummmm, what to do?

Well, as always USAFRet, thanks for the input. Have a good one.

 

[USAFRet]

If it is "writing" and you power off suddenly...yes, that could impact/corrupt data.

I still maintain a dock that would let it be read, and the thing actually power up "as a drive", would be the way to go.
The drive firmware can do whatever it needs to do.

Instead of just voltage.

 

[tmpc1066]

I still maintain a dock that would let it be read, and the thing actually power up "as a drive", would be the way to go.
The drive firmware can do whatever it needs to do.

I definitely see your point. The reason I'm a bit concerned is that I tried mounting the drive on the computer using an external Inateck SATA to USB3 adapter and it confused the computers iLok licensing program a little bit. It's OK now, but I had to restart some things.

It's a pain, but I will have to install this external backup drive in the computer to make sure everything is OK. These protection schemes can be a real PITA.

 

[USAFRet]

Here's a thought - Linux.

A dock as above.
A Linux LiveUSB.
Boot from that Linux USB.
Then, power up the dock, just to get the SSD running.

It won't attempt to boot from it, nor impact any licensing.

 

[tmpc1066]

Here's a thought - Linux.

A dock as above.
A Linux LiveUSB.
Boot from that Linux USB.
Then, power up the dock, just to get the SSD running.

It won't attempt to boot from it, nor impact any licensing.

Whoa! I'll have to look into this.

 

[tmpc1066]

You're gonna love this.

My understanding is that simply connecting an SSD to a computer doesn't refresh its data. Although it's possible that the management system in some SSDs will do this, the information isn't made public. So, the only thing I can think of to force this to happen on any SSD would be to read the entire drive, but I don't actually want to copy the data anywhere. Does anyone know of a simple way to make this happen on a Mac?

 

[rgd1101]

what do you mean refresh?

 

[tmpc1066]

If you store an SSD containing data (not powered), it will eventually lose data. The speed at which this happens is affected by many things, but the general recommendation is to power it up at some regular interval to "rejuvenate" the bits. Opinions vary on the interval (every 3 months, twice per year, etc.), but it is universally agreed that it is the thing to do. However, my understanding is that simply powering it up won't rejuvenate the bits; they have to be read so that the internal management system with fix the weak bits.

 

[USAFRet]

The discussion in this thread didn't fully address this?

[SOLVED] - Preventing stored SSDs from losing data

When storing an SSD with data on it, my understanding is that it must be powered up periodically to prevent data loss. The questions that I can't seem to find a definitive answer to is whether it needs to be connected to a computer when powering up, and whether it actually needs to be read by...

forums.tomshardware.com

 

[Herr B]

SSD Drives are not a good option for Backups (Likewise thumbdrives) They do not physically store the data Such as magnetizing disks or engraving some material. they keep the data by holding the electricity like a capacitor.

If the "Battery" is empty, data is gone. Non persistent storage. When you boot your computer however, all of that is handles automatically and you do not need worry about that at all. Just dont let it sit for several years and expect your data is still there. You need a physical backup on harddrives for that. Most harddrives are rated for 20 years.

https://www.amazon.com/Sabrent-Exte...ld=1&keywords=sata+dock&qid=1617826478&sr=8-1

 

[USAFRet]

If the "Battery" is empty, data is gone. Non persistent storage.

That's a bit overstated.

It is NOT 'non persistent'.

Under some extreme conditions, an unpowered SSD can lose data.
Extreme, as in...
Already reached its wear limit, and stored, unpowered, in very very high temps for several weeks.

 

[tmpc1066]

The discussion in this thread didn't fully address this?

Hi USAFRet. No, because I found some info after the previous thread indicating that that simply powering it up won't do it.

SSD Drives are not a good option for Backups (Likewise thumbdrives)

Yeah, I know. Without boring you with the details, my purpose is to maintain access to authorized music software far into the future after authorization may not be possible. Nothing illegal; this is just insurance. It has to be an SSD so that the authorized software on the drive has the speed I need.

 

[USAFRet]

Hi USAFRet. No, because I found some info after the previous thread indicating that that simply powering it up won't do it.

What info?
I'd be interested in reading it.

Did you look into the Linux option I mentioned?

 

[Herr B]

Hi USAFRet. No, because I found some info after the previous thread indicating that that simply powering it up won't do it.

Yeah, I know. Without boring you with the details, my purpose is to maintain access to authorized music software far into the future after authorization may not be possible. Nothing illegal; this is just insurance. It has to be an SSD so that the authorized software on the drive has the speed I need.

I dont get it. Save it on a harddrive as a backup.
In case you loose access you can then restore the backup and use it at fast speeds afterwards.
Furthermore harddrives should have plenty of speed in order to play Audio files.

 

[USAFRet]

I dont get it. Save it on a harddrive as a backup.
In case you loose access you can then restore the backup and use it at fast speeds afterwards.
Furthermore harddrives should have plenty of speed in order to play Audio files.

His software is apparently licensed to and tied to the ID of the actual physical drive.
Not merely a 'backup'.

 

[tmpc1066]

I dont get it. Save it on a harddrive as a backup.
In case you loose access you can then restore the backup and use it at fast speeds afterwards.
Furthermore harddrives should have plenty of speed in order to play Audio files.

The problem is that some software protection schemes look at the computer ID and the drive ID. So, to really be bulletproof over the long haul, you need multiple computers and drives, where the drives and the computers were all authorized (online, in most cases). Sometimes, the companies go out of business, or stop supporting a certain piece of software, or they no longer support older computers running older operating systems. It's a mess. So, a simple backup doesn't work due to the authorization.

 

[Rogue Leader]

You don't need to start new threads to continue essentially the same discussion. Your conversations have been merged here. Don't create new threads on this topic.

 

[tmpc1066]

Sorry, I thought it was different enough.

 

[tmpc1066]

What info?
I'd be interested in reading it.

Did you look into the Linux option I mentioned?

I started to, but found other info that indicated that simply powering it may not do anything. The problem with this whole thing is that the companies making the SSDs don't make the inner workings of their drives public. But, if you look at the structure of a flash cell, there appears to be no way that simply applying power to the circuitry could specifically re-charge the cells that need it. That's the whole point of these things; it's isolated until you read it. I have no way to know if reading the whole drive will do anything, but I do know that the management scheme can read voltage level off of a cell and will re-write it elsewhere to avoid data loss. Reading the whole drive will force it to see what needs attention.