Principled Technologies Says it Messed Up Intel 9th Gen Testing

[PaulAlcorn]

Principle Technologies responded to the benchmarking controversy surrounding its recent gaming benchmarking of Intel and AMD processors.

Principled Technologies Says it Messed Up Intel 9th Gen Testing : Read more

 

[volkgren]

Excellent reporting Paul. Sounds like AMD's Game Mode is a bit misleading for users of Ryzen 7. Which brings the question, why do they even include it on Ryzen 7 systems?

 

[passkabeh]

to be fair, regarding the cpu fan, its really simple.just use everything included in the box.because whether it has one in the box or not is the decision of respective party.

 

[volkgren]

to be fair, regarding the cpu fan, its really simple.just use everything included in the box.because whether it has one in the box or not is the decision of respective party.

*EDITED:

The Noctua cooler on the AMD wouldn't have made any significant difference in the results.

 

[jimmysmitty]

Excellent reporting Paul. Sounds like AMD's Game Mode is a bit misleading for users of Ryzen 7. Which brings the question, why do they even include it on Ryzen 7 systems?

I agree. AMD needs to rework the software to recognize the CPU and either not allow it to be turned on for mainstream CPUs or maybe just turn off SMT, although I doubt that would be beneficial unless it allows them to clock higher.

to be fair, regarding the cpu fan, its really simple.just use everything included in the box.because whether it has one in the box or not is the decision of respective party.

I think they should use the same fan as I don't know anyone who plans to buy a 9900K and use the stock Intel fan. Most go for the high end Noctua or some AiO.

That said I don't think it would give either an advantage as the turbo speeds are programmed and the stock coolers are set to allow them their distinct turbo speeds at certain settings. The only benefit I can see is if they overclocked the system.

 

[vapour]

That explanation on cooler diff is just BS...
Hope they can make it right this time, but still suspicious...

 

[volkgren]

If we wanted to see both CPUs at their maximum performance the yes I'd like to see the same high-end cooler on both CPUs.

But, I would say the use of the stock AMD Wraith Prism cooler (a somewhat beefy cooler from AMD, they call it their own "ultimate cooling solution") is nothing to blame Principle Technologies for purposefully fudging the results. AMD says that better cooling allows automatic OVERCLOCKING. It seems their only mess up was with AMD's own "Game Mode".

 

[shrapnel_indie]

to be fair, regarding the cpu fan, its really simple.just use everything included in the box.because whether it has one in the box or not is the decision of respective party.

I agree. If AMD's stock cooler isn't enough for maximum performance at stock clocks then that's their own fault. I would only expect the same aftermarket cooler on both in benchmarks from independent third-parties.

Boy, you'd think that story about Google today on Breitbart would be very important tech news that a site like this would be covering. I guess it doesn't fit the agenda.

The Wraith cooler is fine and sufficient for normal use. But the Noctua cooler is on a higher level. The coolers aren't equivalent and thus the Intel CPU received more cooling headroom for its boost tech to take advantage of.

 

[PaulAlcorn]

Excellent reporting Paul. Sounds like AMD's Game Mode is a bit misleading for users of Ryzen 7. Which brings the question, why do they even include it on Ryzen 7 systems?

I agree. AMD needs to rework the software to recognize the CPU and either not allow it to be turned on for mainstream CPUs or maybe just turn off SMT, although I doubt that would be beneficial unless it allows them to clock higher.

to be fair, regarding the cpu fan, its really simple.just use everything included in the box.because whether it has one in the box or not is the decision of respective party.

I think they should use the same fan as I don't know anyone who plans to buy a 9900K and use the stock Intel fan. Most go for the high end Noctua or some AiO.

That said I don't think it would give either an advantage as the turbo speeds are programmed and the stock coolers are set to allow them their distinct turbo speeds at certain settings. The only benefit I can see is if they overclocked the system.

Cooler quality does have an impact on performance with both AMD and Intel systems. Turbo Boost, Precision Boost, and XFR all respond to the thermal conditions of the chip, among other factors, to boost. Better coolers can result in more frequent boosting, higher boost, and longer boost duration.

 

[TCA_ChinChin]

The "game mode" thing is something that I think is pretty significant. Its the same as turning off SMT on any of the Intel systems. Even if it is somewhat misleading to a consumer, a company dedicated to testing computer systems hired for to perform as fair as possible benchmarks should be able to know what it does. Furthermore, AMD has already put out notices that "gaming mode" is really only for Threadripper and not your average Ryzen.

As for why they even bother including it in Ryzen systems. Im pretty sure all hyperthreaded computers have the option for threading to be turned off including Intel's. AMD's way of turning it off in gaming mode just seems to be bad design (at least for non-threadripper CPUs).

 

[gggplaya]

Excellent reporting Paul. Sounds like AMD's Game Mode is a bit misleading for users of Ryzen 7. Which brings the question, why do they even include it on Ryzen 7 systems?

I agree. AMD needs to rework the software to recognize the CPU and either not allow it to be turned on for mainstream CPUs or maybe just turn off SMT, although I doubt that would be beneficial unless it allows them to clock higher.

I'm pretty sure I remember clicking on game mode without threadripper that it asks you to also enable "legacy compatibility mode." I'll need to double check that when I get home.

But regardless, PT are supposed to be professionals and they already worked with AMD to review Threadripper and enabled Game Mode accordingly. They can't claim ignorance to disabling half the cores because they should know what Game Mode does from testing Threadripper. They should have done just one test with game mode on and off to see what the difference would be.

 

[volkgren]

I still stand my ground on the cooler issue. We all know coolers can increase boost performance. But, the main selling point of the Ryzen 2700X is it comes with a cooler and AMD says better cooling allows built-in overclocking. I don't expect Intel to add an aftermarket cooler to it when comparing results.

 

[mitch074]

That cooler excuse is a load of crap - AMD's cooler has a set dissipation rating of 105 W. Noctua's fan is rated to 165W and more! There are only 3 "fair" comparisons:
- use boxed coolers for all CPUs (but Intel don't want that, as their boxed coolers are absolute crap)
- use equivalent coolers per CPU range : if AMD's boxed cooler is that much better than Intel's, get a similar one for Intel. Don't forget to mention it, though, as a cooler can go from $15 to $70.
- the easiest one: get a cooler that can handle the worst CPU in there and test it on all platforms.

As for enabling Game Mode, I would think AMD kept that setting in for those games that actually can't handle more than 4 cores / 8 threads well. That it nerfs the CPU in all other cases is why it's not on by default.

 

[PaulAlcorn]

I'm seeing conflicting reports on the use of memory timings. https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2018/10/09/intels-i9-9900k-vs-ryzen-2700x-gaming-benchmarks-are-misleading-period/#600af9704e4e
*I guess Hardware Unboxed was simply unaware that DOCP was used??

I still stand my ground on the cooler issue. We all know coolers can increase boost performance. But, the main selling point of the Ryzen 2700X is it comes with a cooler. I don't expect Intel to add an aftermarket cooler to it when comparing results.

As the article says, the original test notes did not list the DOCP settings.

 

[gggplaya]

It's like reviewing a Ford Mustang that doesn't come with tires, vs a Chevy Camaro that comes with normal road tires which must be purchased in bulk for a reasonable price. Then having the reviewer put on a set of race slicks on the Mustang and driving both cars around the track.

Sure Chevy chose the best tires they could for the price and the car does very well around the track, but it'll never beat the mustang with it's race slicks purchased for significantly more money.

 

[volkgren]

No, it's like comparing a stock, high-performance "ultimate cooling solution" cooler from AMD that is supposed to be adequate for the 2700X, vs. another cooler that is more than enough for the 9900K. It's not like they were comparing overclocks.

 

[mitch074]

I think they should use the same fan as I don't know anyone who plans to buy a 9900K and use the stock Intel fan. Most go for the high end Noctua or some AiO.

That said I don't think it would give either an advantage as the turbo speeds are programmed and the stock coolers are set to allow them their distinct turbo speeds at certain settings. The only benefit I can see is if they overclocked the system.

Intel's coolers don't take the turbo speeds into account - they're barely able to handle the base clock speed when all cores are loaded. And they're in no hurry to change them because they know no-one will actually use them.
I'm sure that if you look closely at Intel's warranty terms, use of a non-approved cooler can void your warranty. They approved their own, but they say nothing about third-party coolers... Thus that lump of aluminum they ship is only there to say "we provide you with an approved cooler, if you change it it's on you".
I think that's the actual reason for overpricing the K processors, since they don't come with a cooler.

 

[shrapnel_indie]

It's like reviewing a Ford Mustang that doesn't come with tires, vs a Chevy Camaro that comes with normal road tires which must be purchased in bulk for a reasonable price. Then having the reviewer put on a set of race slicks on the Mustang and driving both cars around the track.

Sure Chevy chose the best tires they could for the price and the car does very well around the track, but it'll never beat the mustang with it's race slicks purchased for significantly more money.

I get what you're saying, but it's a poor analogy as others would and will feel that the Chevy and Ford have been wrongfully swapped.

 

[dxkj21]

You agree that it is fair to give the intel an upgraded cooler, then compare them? Sure... lol

 

[volkgren]

You agree that it is fair to give the intel an upgraded cooler, then compare them? Sure... lol

It's stock clocks. If the "ultimate cooling solution" from AMD throttles their flagship CPU, then that's their own fault. By no means would I expect Intel to go out of their way to upgrade an AMD CPU with an aftermarket cooler.

And you don't upgrade the cooler on the Intel because it doesn't come with a cooler. You simply add your own.

 

[dxkj21]

You agree that it is fair to give the intel an upgraded cooler, then compare them? Sure... lol

It's stock clocks. If the "ultimate cooling solution" from AMD throttles their flagship CPU, then that's their own fault. By no means would I expect Intel to go out of their way to upgrade an AMD CPU with an aftermarket cooler.

And you don't upgrade the cooler on the Intel because it doesn't come with a cooler. You simply add your own.

 

[dxkj21]

Ok, so why dont they leave AMD on their stock clock, and use liquid nitrogen on the Intel.... thats fair?

 

[dxkj21]

Oh oh, or, they could disable cores on the AMD and not on the Intel, thats fair too! Waiiiit a minute.!

 

[gggplaya]

No, it's like comparing a stock, high-performance "ultimate cooling solution" cooler from AMD that is supposed to be adequate for the 2700X, vs. another cooler that is more than enough for the 9900K. It's not like they were comparing overclocks.

Enthusiast love it because you can overclock with it, but the fan will be screaming and temps will be around 80c under load.

But if you set the CPU to stock clocks plus boost, then it'll try to keep temps well under 80C and will only get you 3.8 to 4 Ghz with the AMD cooler.

That's why this test is invalid, because PT used one of the best air coolers on the market.

 

[TerryLaze]

The "game mode" thing is something that I think is pretty significant. Its the same as turning off SMT on any of the Intel systems.

Turning off HTT on intel systems(of this magnitude I'm not talking about pentium or i3 here) increases performance in some titles or at worst it stays the same.
We have all seen a lot of benchmarks where this is the case,never once where there a case where performance dropped that much.