Priority with Flashback and Scrabbling Claws

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hi,

I had a few question regarding priority. According to rule 212.7a you can
play a sorcery when the stack is empty and you have priority. And according
to rule 212.7b the sorcery card is put into the graveyard when the spell
resolves. If I play for example Lightning Surge and it resolves, does my
opponent have a chance to use Scrabbling Claws to remove it from the game
before I have a chance to Flashback it? Or do I get priority first, and
since the stack is empty can I play the sorcery? Would it be different if
the card was put into the graveyard by Book Burning? If Lightning Surge
would be an instant, would it then be any different?
So my question is basicly when can my opponent remove a card with flashback
from my graveyard before I have a chance to play it. I did some reading in
the Comprehensive Rules as you can see, but I couldn't find the answer.
Thanks in advance for answering my questions.

Robert

Scrabbling Claws
{1}
Artifact
{T}: Target player removes a card in his or her graveyard from the game.
{1}, Sacrifice Scrabbling Claws: Remove target card in a graveyard from the
game. Draw a card.

Book Burning
{1}{R}
Sorcery
Unless a player has Book Burning deal 6 damage to him or her, put the top
six cards of target player's library into his or her graveyard.

Lightning Surge
{3}{R}{R}
Sorcery
Lightning Surge deals 4 damage to target creature or player.
Threshold -- Instead Lightning Surge deals 6 damage to that creature or
player and the damage can't be prevented.
Flashback {5}{R}{R} (You may play this card from your graveyard for its
flashback cost. Then remove it from the game.)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 00:46:37 +0200, The Machine <no@spam.com> wrote:
>I had a few question regarding priority. According to rule 212.7a you can
>play a sorcery when the stack is empty and you have priority.

Right, except that you ALSO must be in your turn's Main phase.

>And according
>to rule 212.7b the sorcery card is put into the graveyard when the spell
>resolves.

As the last part of resolving it.

>If I play for example Lightning Surge and it resolves, does my
>opponent have a chance to use Scrabbling Claws to remove it from the game
>before I have a chance to Flashback it?

If it's your turn, then no they do not. (If this is not your turn - if a
Vedalken Orrery is out, that being the only way to play a Lightning Surge
-card- when it's not your turn - then they may ANNOUNCE the use of the Claws
before you can ANNOUNCE the casting of the Sorcery. But if an Orrery is out
you can respond to their use of the Claws by casting the Sorcery anyway.)

>Or do I get priority first, and
>since the stack is empty can I play the sorcery?

Yes.

>Would it be different if
>the card was put into the graveyard by Book Burning?

Again, is it your turn or not? If it's your turn, you get priority first;
if it's not, they do. So generally, since Book Burning is generally cast
by one's opponent, you -won't- be able to Flashback a Lightning Surge
milled this way, because it won't be your turn and you can't cast Sorcery
spells on opponent's turn.

>If Lightning Surge
>would be an instant, would it then be any different?

Yes. If it were an Instant, it wouldn't matter if they tried to Claws it,
because you could just cast it in response to the Claws ability.

>So my question is basicly when can my opponent remove a card with flashback
>from my graveyard before I have a chance to play it.

If it's an Instant? Pretty much "never" - you'll have a chance to play it
_in response to_ whatever means they're using to remove it, unless it's
something that sends it elsewhere INSTEAD OF to the graveyard, like Yawgmoth's
Will.

If it's not an Instant? Whenever it's not your turn, and/or not your Main
phase.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 00:46:37 +0200, "The Machine" <no@spam.com> wrote:

>I had a few question regarding priority. According to rule 212.7a you can
>play a sorcery when the stack is empty and you have priority.

Yes, if you add "during a main phase of his or her turn" - important
addition, the two other restrictions alone would also allow sorceries
during eg. the attack phase and at the end of your opponents turns and
phases.

>And according
>to rule 212.7b the sorcery card is put into the graveyard when the spell
>resolves.

Again mostly yes - it goes to the graveyard _after_ it has resolved,
minor nitpick but still...

>If I play for example Lightning Surge and it resolves, does my
>opponent have a chance to use Scrabbling Claws to remove it from the game
>before I have a chance to Flashback it? Or do I get priority first, and
>since the stack is empty can I play the sorcery?

If you play Lightning Surge during your turn (added for Vedalken
Orrery), then; no, he cannot use Scrabbling Claws to remove it before
you have a chance to play it.

Play by play:
* You play Lightning Surge from you hand
* You pass priority
* He passes priority
* Lightning Surge resolves, then goes to the graveyard
* You get priority and can flashback Lightning Surge

>Would it be different if
>the card was put into the graveyard by Book Burning?

It would be different if it wasn't your turn. That last line above
would be more general as:
* The player who's turn it is gets priority.

If that player is your opponent, then he can activate Scrabbling Claws
and remove your Lightning Surge before you could use it. If that
player is you, then he is out of luck.

>If Lightning Surge
>would be an instant, would it then be any different?

Yes, then you would be able to play it in responce to the activation
of Scrabbling Claws. Vedalken Orrery would allow you to do this with
sorceries too.


>Scrabbling Claws
>{1}
>Artifact
>{T}: Target player removes a card in his or her graveyard from the game.
>{1}, Sacrifice Scrabbling Claws: Remove target card in a graveyard from the
>game. Draw a card.
>
>Book Burning
>{1}{R}
>Sorcery
>Unless a player has Book Burning deal 6 damage to him or her, put the top
>six cards of target player's library into his or her graveyard.
>
>Lightning Surge
>{3}{R}{R}
>Sorcery
>Lightning Surge deals 4 damage to target creature or player.
>Threshold -- Instead Lightning Surge deals 6 damage to that creature or
>player and the damage can't be prevented.
>Flashback {5}{R}{R} (You may play this card from your graveyard for its
>flashback cost. Then remove it from the game.)
>
Vedalken Orrery
{4}
Artifact
You may play nonland cards any time you could play an instant.

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Simon Nejmann <snejmann@worldonline.REMOVETHIS.dk> wrote:
>"The Machine" <no@spam.com> wrote:
>>And according
>>to rule 212.7b the sorcery card is put into the graveyard when the spell
>>resolves.
>
>Again mostly yes - it goes to the graveyard _after_ it has resolved,
>minor nitpick but still...

It goes to the graveyard _as the last part of_ resolving. After all of its
effect has happened, and before state-based effects can get checked for.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

The Machine wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I had a few question regarding priority. According to rule 212.7a you can
> play a sorcery when the stack is empty and you have priority. And
> according to rule 212.7b the sorcery card is put into the graveyard when
> the spell resolves. If I play for example Lightning Surge and it resolves,
> does my opponent have a chance to use Scrabbling Claws to remove it from
> the game before I have a chance to Flashback it?

Nope. You are the active player, you always get priority first when
something resolves. Since Lightning Surge is a Sorcery, the stack must
be empty when it resolves, so you can play it again. Your opponent does
*not* have priority; he can't play anything at this point.

> Or do I get priority
> first, and since the stack is empty can I play the sorcery?

Correct.

> Would it be
> different if the card was put into the graveyard by Book Burning?

No, because Book Burning is also a Sorcery. The only way for you to
not be able to flashback the Surge is if it gets put into your
graveyard while there is something still on the stack (or when it's
not your main phase).

> If
> Lightning Surge would be an instant, would it then be any different?

If Lightning Surge were an instant, then if you played it during your
turn, you would always have the chance to flashback it (because you
would always get priority first). If you played it during your opponent's
turn, you opponent would always have the chance to use Scrabbling Claws
on it (because *he* would always get priority first).

> So my question is basicly when can my opponent remove a card with
> flashback from my graveyard before I have a chance to play it.

Depends on who gets priority first. During your turn, you do, and
can play the flashback card. During your opponent's turn, he does,
and he can remove the flashback card from your graveyard.

> I did some
> reading in the Comprehensive Rules as you can see, but I couldn't find the
> answer. Thanks in advance for answering my questions.
>
> Robert
>
> Scrabbling Claws
> {1}
> Artifact
> {T}: Target player removes a card in his or her graveyard from the game.
> {1}, Sacrifice Scrabbling Claws: Remove target card in a graveyard from
> {the
> game. Draw a card.
>
> Book Burning
> {1}{R}
> Sorcery
> Unless a player has Book Burning deal 6 damage to him or her, put the top
> six cards of target player's library into his or her graveyard.
>
> Lightning Surge
> {3}{R}{R}
> Sorcery
> Lightning Surge deals 4 damage to target creature or player.
> Threshold -- Instead Lightning Surge deals 6 damage to that creature or
> player and the damage can't be prevented.
> Flashback {5}{R}{R} (You may play this card from your graveyard for its
> flashback cost. Then remove it from the game.)

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David DeLaney wrote:
>
> If it's an Instant? Pretty much "never" - you'll have a chance to play it
> _in response to_ whatever means they're using to remove it, unless it's
> something that sends it elsewhere INSTEAD OF to the graveyard, like
> Yawgmoth's Will.

*Duh.* Dave is, of course, correct, and I am wrong. While during your
opponent's turn your opponent will get a chance to *use* the Claws,
you still get to flashback it before the Claws resolve. Sorry about that.

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Chris Mattern <matternc@comcast.net> wrote:
>The Machine wrote:
>> Would it be
>> different if the card was put into the graveyard by Book Burning?
>
>No, because Book Burning is also a Sorcery. The only way for you to
>not be able to flashback the Surge is if it gets put into your
>graveyard while there is something still on the stack (or when it's
>not your main phase).

And since it's usually one's opponent who's casting Book Burning on one, one
is usually not in one's main phase when putting cards into the graveyard
because of it...

>> If
>> Lightning Surge would be an instant, would it then be any different?
>
>If Lightning Surge were an instant, then if you played it during your
>turn, you would always have the chance to flashback it (because you
>would always get priority first). If you played it during your opponent's
>turn, you opponent would always have the chance to use Scrabbling Claws
>on it (because *he* would always get priority first).

Quite correct... but you would still get the chance to Flashback it before
the Claws' ability could -resolve-, because Instants can be cast in response
to other stuff using the stack.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
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