production output format change

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Several columns in the production command are too narrow and don't
align properly for large values. I removed column wkfc to make space.
I chose wkfc as it appears to be the least useful column. Any
objections? Changeling runs the new code now. Example output
appended.

Sun Feb 20 19:46:01 2005
PRODUCTION SIMULATION
sect des eff will make p.e. cost use1 use2 use3 max1 max2 max3 max
10,0 j 100% 0 lcm 0.97 $0 0i 599i 581
12,0 o 0% 0 oil 0.97 $0 0
3,1 t 100% 14.32 tech 0.72 $6000 20d 100o 200l 38d 190o 380l 27.21
5,1 b 100% 0 bars 1.00 $0 0d 600d 120
13,1 % 100% 0 petrol 9.66 $0 0o 103o 0
2,2 k 100% 0 hcm 0.97 $0 0i 602i 292
4,2 m 100% 599 iron 1.00 $0 599
6,2 e 100% 33 mil 1.00 $99 33c 33c 498
8,2 m 94% 563 iron 1.00 $0 563
10,2 m 100% 599 iron 1.00 $0 599
12,2 g 0% 0 dust 1.00 $0 0
14,2 k 100% 581 hcm 0.97 $0 1198i 1198i 581
1,3 i 100% 193 shells 0.97 $600 400l 200h 400l 200h 193
5,3 m 100% 0 iron 1.00 $0 599
7,3 g 0% 0 dust 1.00 $0 0
9,3 m 100% 0 iron 1.00 $0 599
11,3 m 97% 581 iron 1.00 $0 581
13,3 g 0% 0 dust 1.00 $0 0
15,3 d 100% 36 guns 0.97 $1110 37o 185l 370h 37o 185l 370h 0
2,4 j 100% 581 lcm 0.97 $0 599i 599i 581
4,4 g 0% 0 dust 1.00 $0 0
6,4 r 100% 0.00 medical 0.72 $0 0d 0o 0l 37d 185o 370l 26.50
8,4 m 100% 480 iron 1.00 $0 480
10,4 m 100% 0 iron 1.00 $0 977
14,4 ^ 0% 0 dust 0.75 $0 0
13,5 j 100% 0 lcm 0.97 $0 0i 599i 581
15,5 l 100% 200 edu 1.00 $1800 200l 599l 599
17,5 a 109% 999 food 8.72 $0 999
28 sectors
 
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I thought wkfc was the most important column if I remember correctly
(been awhile since I had to bother with prod)
 
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Markus Armbruster wrote:
> Several columns in the production command are too narrow and don't
> align properly for large values. I removed column wkfc to make space.
> I chose wkfc as it appears to be the least useful column. Any
> objections? Changeling runs the new code now. Example output
> appended.
>
> Sun Feb 20 19:46:01 2005
> PRODUCTION SIMULATION
> sect des eff will make p.e. cost use1 use2 use3 max1 max2 max3 max
> 10,0 j 100% 0 lcm 0.97 $0 0i 599i 581
> 12,0 o 0% 0 oil 0.97 $0 0
> 3,1 t 100% 14.32 tech 0.72 $6000 20d 100o 200l 38d 190o 380l 27.21
> 5,1 b 100% 0 bars 1.00 $0 0d 600d 120

drop the des column header, that saves 2 spaces

drop the make column, we make the product that the sector produces, that
saves 7 columns (medical)

drop the $ in cost, money should be assumed

drop the % in efficiency, assumed, saves one column

return work, 4 or 5 columns

additional idea, move 'will' to go between use3 and max 1, then you have
a consistent readout, x(1,2,3) commodities will produce 'will', max
1,2,3 produce max

additional idea 2, change will to prod for produced or product
use(1,2,3) produces value

thank you

DE
 
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"Akorps@aol.com" <Akorps@aol.com> writes:

> I thought wkfc was the most important column if I remember correctly
> (been awhile since I had to bother with prod)

I need to know what columns people actually need.

I picked wkfc because it can be computed from census easily:

wkfc = civs * work + uw + mil * 0.4

I could put it back, but only if I can squeeze out 5 characters
somewhere else. Where?
 
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how about abbreviate what the sector will make:

ie:

10,0 j 100% 0 lcm 0.97 $0 0i 599i 581
12,0 o 0% 0 oil 0.97 $0 0
3,1 t 100% 14.32 tech 0.72 $6000 20d 100o 200l 38d 190o 380l 27.21
5,1 b 100% 0 bars 1.00 $0 0d 600d 120

turns into:

10,0 j 100% 0 l 0.97 $0 0i 599i 581
12,0 o 0% 0 o 0.97 $0 0
3,1 t 100% 14.32 t 0.72 $6000 20d 100o 200l 38d 190o 380l 27.21
5,1 b 100% 0 b 1.00 $0 0d 600d 120


-Bungy



"Markus Armbruster" <armbru@pond.sub.org> wrote in message
news:87vf7ufrhr.fsf@pond.sub.org...
> "Akorps@aol.com" <Akorps@aol.com> writes:
>
> > I thought wkfc was the most important column if I remember correctly
> > (been awhile since I had to bother with prod)
>
> I need to know what columns people actually need.
>
> I picked wkfc because it can be computed from census easily:
>
> wkfc = civs * work + uw + mil * 0.4
>
> I could put it back, but only if I can squeeze out 5 characters
> somewhere else. Where?
 
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"Bungholio" <empire_bungholioNOSAPM@verizon.net> writes:

> how about abbreviate what the sector will make:
>
> ie:
>
> 10,0 j 100% 0 lcm 0.97 $0 0i 599i 581
> 12,0 o 0% 0 oil 0.97 $0 0
> 3,1 t 100% 14.32 tech 0.72 $6000 20d 100o 200l 38d 190o 380l 27.21
> 5,1 b 100% 0 bars 1.00 $0 0d 600d 120
>
> turns into:
>
> 10,0 j 100% 0 l 0.97 $0 0i 599i 581
> 12,0 o 0% 0 o 0.97 $0 0
> 3,1 t 100% 14.32 t 0.72 $6000 20d 100o 200l 38d 190o 380l 27.21
> 5,1 b 100% 0 b 1.00 $0 0d 600d 120

Is `h' happy or hcm?
 
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Markus Armbruster <armbru@pond.sub.org> wrote:
> > 10,0 j 100% 0 l 0.97 $0 0i 599i 581
> > 12,0 o 0% 0 o 0.97 $0 0
> > 3,1 t 100% 14.32 t 0.72 $6000 20d 100o 200l 38d 190o 380l 27.21
> > 5,1 b 100% 0 b 1.00 $0 0d 600d 120

> Is `h' happy or hcm?

That depends whether column 2 is a 'k' or a 'p'... Maybe dropping
the commodity column all together is possible as well. ;-)

Zlo
 
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Does "avail" not come into the equation somehow? Last game I played
there was some strange effect due to avail that took awhile to figure
out.

I remember using wkfc for fine tuning during micromanagement sometimes
 
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"Akorps@aol.com" <Akorps@aol.com> writes:

> Does "avail" not come into the equation somehow? Last game I played
> there was some strange effect due to avail that took awhile to figure
> out.
>
> I remember using wkfc for fine tuning during micromanagement sometimes

Production is limited by available work and raw materials.

When people work, available work is set to[1][2]

avail = (civ * work + mil * 0.4 + uw) * etu / 100

Various activities during the update affect it[3]: unit construction,
people working, growing emergency food, sector construction, sector
production.

Note that workforce (`wkfc') is a value internal to available work
computation. It has no direct significance. To use it for anything
but spotting sectors with unusual work, I have to compute available
work from it.

In fact, the production command doesn't even compute workforce
anymore. That's hidden in the function computing available work,
which I created to capture that computation in one place.


It looks like people would rather lose column `make' than `wkfc'. For
me, workforce is much less useful than available work. We have space
for one column. Take your pick:

* Column `make' showing the short product name. You can derive it
easily from column des and `show sect cap'.

* Column `wkfc' showing workforce. You can compute it from census.
To do anything with it, you have to compute available work from it.

* Column `avail' showing available work. You can compute it from
census and version. Could look like this:

Sun Feb 20 19:46:01 2005
PRODUCTION SIMULATION
sect des eff avail will p.e. cost use1 use2 use3 max1 max2 max3 max
10,0 j 100% 599 0l 0.97 $0 0i 599i 581l
12,0 o 0% 599 0o 0.97 $0 0o
3,1 t 100% 599 14.32 0.72 $6000 20d 100o 200l 38d 190o 380l 27.21

Please make your preference known.


[1] Assuming rollover_avail_max is zero for simplicity.

[2] Some rounding ignored for simplicity.

[3] The budget priority misfeature allows you to mess with the order,
but let's ignore that here. The production command assumes all work
is available for sector construction and production, which may be
considered a bug.
 
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"Markus Armbruster" <armbru@pond.sub.org> wrote in message
news:87d5u1e7ch.fsf@pond.sub.org...
> "Akorps@aol.com" <Akorps@aol.com> writes:
>
> > Does "avail" not come into the equation somehow? Last game I played
> > there was some strange effect due to avail that took awhile to figure
> > out.
> >
> > I remember using wkfc for fine tuning during micromanagement sometimes
>
> Production is limited by available work and raw materials.
>
> When people work, available work is set to[1][2]
>
> avail = (civ * work + mil * 0.4 + uw) * etu / 100
>
> Various activities during the update affect it[3]: unit construction,
> people working, growing emergency food, sector construction, sector
> production.
>
> Note that workforce (`wkfc') is a value internal to available work
> computation. It has no direct significance. To use it for anything
> but spotting sectors with unusual work, I have to compute available
> work from it.
>
> In fact, the production command doesn't even compute workforce
> anymore. That's hidden in the function computing available work,
> which I created to capture that computation in one place.
>
>
> It looks like people would rather lose column `make' than `wkfc'. For
> me, workforce is much less useful than available work. We have space
> for one column. Take your pick:
>
> * Column `make' showing the short product name. You can derive it
> easily from column des and `show sect cap'.
>
> * Column `wkfc' showing workforce. You can compute it from census.
> To do anything with it, you have to compute available work from it.
>
> * Column `avail' showing available work. You can compute it from
> census and version. Could look like this:
>
> Sun Feb 20 19:46:01 2005
> PRODUCTION SIMULATION
> sect des eff avail will p.e. cost use1 use2 use3 max1 max2 max3
max
> 10,0 j 100% 599 0l 0.97 $0 0i 599i
581l
> 12,0 o 0% 599 0o 0.97 $0
0o
> 3,1 t 100% 599 14.32 0.72 $6000 20d 100o 200l 38d 190o 380l
27.21
>
> Please make your preference known.
>
>
> [1] Assuming rollover_avail_max is zero for simplicity.
>
> [2] Some rounding ignored for simplicity.
>
> [3] The budget priority misfeature allows you to mess with the order,
> but let's ignore that here. The production command assumes all work
> is available for sector construction and production, which may be
> considered a bug.

Avail is much more useful. Early in the game, I am calculating that often
with a calculator. Workforce and make are columns I ignore.

What pain is this going to cause for intelligent clients? Some compute
avail so they will not need the information. do any use 'wkfc'?

Tom
 
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Avail should be taken out of the game.

I was going to give away the secret reasons for keeping wkfc, but
evidently some of the other posters haven't figured it out yet, so I
better not spill the beans.
 
G

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"Akorps@aol.com" <Akorps@aol.com> writes:

[...]
> I was going to give away the secret reasons for keeping wkfc, but
> evidently some of the other posters haven't figured it out yet, so I
> better not spill the beans.

Anyway, uncle Henner was descended from the famous Rabbi Schloime
Rosenbach, who wrote his tracts thee hundred years ago in in the
Bukowina, and on whose gravestone the following motto is engraved:
`Truth is the most valuable of all essentials, and shall be handled
with frugality and restraint.' My family was and is striving to live
this motto. Since generations we go on a pilgrimage every year on
holy Yom Kippur to Czernowitz and pray for the soul of the great
ancestor. This custom was frustrated when Czernowitz came to lie
behind the iron curtain --- but to the consolation of the descendants,
the old scholar's motto became the maxim of the communist world system
from the Elbe to the shore of the Sea of Japan.

-- André Kaminski, Next Year in Jerusalem
translation by yours truly, with apologies to the artist
 
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> Avail is much more useful. Early in the game, I am calculating that
often
> with a calculator. Workforce and make are columns I ignore.
>
> What pain is this going to cause for intelligent clients? Some
compute
> avail so they will not need the information. do any use 'wkfc'?
>
> Tom
Tom,

WinACE does not parse the prod report so changes should not be an
issue.

production, avail and wkfc are calculated directly by code.

Ron K.
 
G

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Well, for example, if you want to strip gold mines in one update early
in the game, using various combinations of civ/uw/mil, it is useful to
have the wkfc info from prod, then add 1 to avoid getting burned by the
random rounding.

All that complicated stuff you are so expert in memorizing I can't
compete with, but there is a danger that your mind gets crammed so full
of complicated theories that there is no room for a dissenting view.

It is like the economic problems in USA currently. The solution is very
simple, but the brains of the pundits are so crammed full of
microeconomic expertise that by psychological projection, they are
seeing macroeconomic problems in microeconomic terms. No microeconomic
solution exists to macroeconomic problems, that was the mistake Hoover
made in 1929, trying to solve macroeconomic problems by applying the
lessons he had learned from a lifetime dealing with microeconomic
problems, which he was expert in dealing with. But somewhat
paradoxically, all that expertise blinded him to the solutions
required, as by psychological projection he kept seeing the problems as
giant microeconomic problems, whereas the principles of macroeconomics
are the reverse of microeconomic principles.

In empire terms, what I was aiming for in the 1980s was to emphasize
the strategic aspects of the game, like lines of communication, as
opposed to tactics, dealing with macro problems rather than getting
bogged down in micro problems, and simplicity rather than complexity.
Avail is an unnecessary concept, there are other unnecessary concepts,
which can have the effect of complicating the game. As in formal logic,
you want to know what are the fundamental concepts that you can't get
rid of, and which concepts can be derived or defined in terms of those
basic concepts.

Anyway, Roosevelt, thanks to Keynes I guess, started the Social
Security program, which basically provides a floor for the economy,
paradoxically enough mainly benefitting the capitalists, as there will
always be at least a minimal level of demand for their products, so
they can make a profit. In microeconomics you have to be ruthless at
cutting costs, but in macroeconomics that can feed a vicious circle of
price competition, which leads to lower wages, which leads to lower
demand, which leads to more price cuts, on and on downwards, until you
get a depression or a war. So government has to step in and put a brake
on that vicious circle. Better than Social Security (which is funded by
payroll taxes), would be a government benefits card (like a credit card
for the poor), funded by a surcharge on the income tax and estate tax
of the recipients. In other words the government supplies credit to the
poor for food, rent, medical insurance and education expenses, all of
which are social goods or "public goods" (which means they benefit not
only the consumer but also the public at large or society as a whole).
The private sector can't do this, as not all the credit extended will
be repaid (so private lenders would go bankrupt), but the government
can (due to the macroeconomic paradoxes), as once the money is spent,
it becomes income to someone else eventually, which is taxed so
eventually is recycled back into government coffers.

So in empire terms, paradoxically enough, strategy, which seems
mysterious, is actually simple, whereas tactics, which seems simple, is
actually exceedingly complex and time consuming. Similarly
micromanaging the empire economy, which seems simple, can take up
endless time.
 
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>>
>> What pain is this going to cause for intelligent clients? Some
> compute
>> avail so they will not need the information. do any use 'wkfc'?
>>

Well, it's going to break simu in pei and hpc. simu can be modified to
calculate commodities used and consumed directly, but I had it believe the
parsed data from prod * over it's own version as there were little changes
that kept occuring (games without iron and such). I'm pretty sure I've
never used the reported wkfc or avail in any of my code. I did use the
reported product and source commodities.

Any change, even just whitespace (since the fields could run together the
parsemap had to be position sensitive), is going to break the actual parsing
code, but that's a two-minute fix. If nothing uses the data, it can just
break and no one will know or care.
 
G

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Drake Diedrich <dld@cmb.usc.edu> writes:

>>>
>>> What pain is this going to cause for intelligent clients? Some
>> compute
>>> avail so they will not need the information. do any use 'wkfc'?
>>>
>
> Well, it's going to break simu in pei and hpc. simu can be modified to
> calculate commodities used and consumed directly, but I had it believe the
> parsed data from prod * over it's own version as there were little changes
> that kept occuring (games without iron and such). I'm pretty sure I've
> never used the reported wkfc or avail in any of my code. I did use the
> reported product and source commodities.
>
> Any change, even just whitespace (since the fields could run together the
> parsemap had to be position sensitive), is going to break the actual parsing
> code, but that's a two-minute fix. If nothing uses the data, it can just
> break and no one will know or care.

Parsing the old production output correctly in all cases is hard. Not
only can fields run together, they can overflow, pushing remaining
fields right. So just parsing columns doesn't quite work.

In fact, that was a secondary reason for me to change it. The primary
reason was that output was ugly and hard to read for humans. Fields
don't overflow anymore. Fields use1, use2, use3, max2, max3 can still
run together with their left neighbor, but not with normal game
parameters. No telling what could happen when Pat keeps hacking the
game, though. The latest version is on Changeling. It incorporates
feedback from r.g.e.

If you want to provide backward compatibility, you can examine the
header line to distinguish new and old format.
 
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"Akorps@aol.com" <Akorps@aol.com> writes:

> Well, for example, if you want to strip gold mines in one update early
> in the game, using various combinations of civ/uw/mil, it is useful to
> have the wkfc info from prod, then add 1 to avoid getting burned by the
> random rounding.

Oh, that's easier using the predicted production. Move in workers
until it says it'll make all the gold that is in the ground (5*gold
resource with stock resource depletion), and then some to guard for
unlucky rounding. Some day we'll even fix it not to predict it'll
make more gold than that.

[Interesting digression on the economy snipped...]
 
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Speaking of economic digressions, an odd idea popped into my mind just
now. Its just an idea, I don't know if its any good, so don't flame me
for it please :)

I was thinking, maybe population growth should take place only in aggie
sectors.

A variant of that would be higher population growth in aggies and a
lower population growth rate in other sectors.

Aggies might also have their population ceiling raised, as in "big
cities" (or "big aggies" :)

Just an idea, haven't thought through whether it is a good one.

Pat once ran a game where civs were very valuable and a scarce
resource, and it was a very good game.

Yet another variant would be to have aggies pay no taxes, so you would
get aggies with high population growth but paying no taxes, and more
advanced industrial sectors paying more taxes but with less or no
population growth.

I was thinking of this after cogitating on the problem Putin has in
Russia with population growth. When the Kulaks or small farmers were
liquidated by Stalin, both the knowledge and skill that accumulated
over many generations was lost, as well as food production, and the
main source of healthy population growth. The best ways I know of in
theory to solve that problem are policies supporting the small farms,
including food stamps (or similar programs) for the population as a
whole (to make sure there is sufficient purchasing power to make small
farming profitable, as well as feed the people well so the population
starts growing), and price supports, so the farmer knows he can sell
his crop for a good price.

The nightmare scenario for Russia is if the population in China starts
growing rapidly and China starts exporting its excess of workers into
the adjacent underpopulated regions.

The weaker Russia gets, the less friendly some of the European
countries seem to get towards USA, so by the past policies aimed at
weakening Russia, we Americans may have been shooting ourselves in the
foot.
 
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Akorps@aol.com wrote:

> I was thinking of this after cogitating on the problem Putin has in
> Russia with population growth. When the Kulaks or small farmers were
> liquidated by Stalin, both the knowledge and skill that accumulated
> over many generations was lost, as well as food production, and the
> main source of healthy population growth.

Well, they had Lysenko on their side , didn't they? Who needs the
knowledge of generations of farmers when 'science' can save the day.

DE
 
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may_I_see_your_passport_please@nospamyahoo.com wrote:
> Akorps@aol.com wrote:
> Well, they had Lysenko on their side , didn't they? Who needs the
> knowledge of generations of farmers when 'science' can save the day.
> DE

Great!

rob3055@duskmail.com
 
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"Markus Armbruster" <armbru@pond.sub.org> wrote in message
news:87wtsa1z5l.fsf@pond.sub.org...
> Several columns in the production command are too narrow and don't
> align properly for large values. I removed column wkfc to make space.
> I chose wkfc as it appears to be the least useful column. Any
> objections? Changeling runs the new code now. Example output
> appended.
>
> Sun Feb 20 19:46:01 2005
> PRODUCTION SIMULATION
> sect des eff will make p.e. cost use1 use2 use3 max1 max2 max3
> max
> 10,0 j 100% 0 lcm 0.97 $0 0i 599i
> 581
> 12,0 o 0% 0 oil 0.97 $0
> 0
> 3,1 t 100% 14.32 tech 0.72 $6000 20d 100o 200l 38d 190o 380l
> 27.21
> 5,1 b 100% 0 bars 1.00 $0 0d 600d
> 120
> 13,1 % 100% 0 petrol 9.66 $0 0o 103o
> 0
> 2,2 k 100% 0 hcm 0.97 $0 0i 602i
> 292
> 4,2 m 100% 599 iron 1.00 $0
> 599
> 6,2 e 100% 33 mil 1.00 $99 33c 33c
> 498
> 8,2 m 94% 563 iron 1.00 $0
> 563
> 10,2 m 100% 599 iron 1.00 $0
> 599
> 12,2 g 0% 0 dust 1.00 $0
> 0
> 14,2 k 100% 581 hcm 0.97 $0 1198i 1198i
> 581
> 1,3 i 100% 193 shells 0.97 $600 400l 200h 400l 200h
> 193
> 5,3 m 100% 0 iron 1.00 $0
> 599
> 7,3 g 0% 0 dust 1.00 $0
> 0
> 9,3 m 100% 0 iron 1.00 $0
> 599
> 11,3 m 97% 581 iron 1.00 $0
> 581
> 13,3 g 0% 0 dust 1.00 $0
> 0
> 15,3 d 100% 36 guns 0.97 $1110 37o 185l 370h 37o 185l 370h
> 0
> 2,4 j 100% 581 lcm 0.97 $0 599i 599i
> 581
> 4,4 g 0% 0 dust 1.00 $0
> 0
> 6,4 r 100% 0.00 medical 0.72 $0 0d 0o 0l 37d 185o 370l
> 26.50
> 8,4 m 100% 480 iron 1.00 $0
> 480
> 10,4 m 100% 0 iron 1.00 $0
> 977
> 14,4 ^ 0% 0 dust 0.75 $0
> 0
> 13,5 j 100% 0 lcm 0.97 $0 0i 599i
> 581
> 15,5 l 100% 200 edu 1.00 $1800 200l 599l
> 599
> 17,5 a 109% 999 food 8.72 $0
> 999
> 28 sectors
I personally, as a blind player, find this entire thing a bit strange, but
perhaps that's just because my screen reader does not care about column
alignment.
 
G

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Let's keep in mind that while some things may be obvious to you, to
new players they can make a confusing game even more indecipherable.

I'd like to see every column kept except avail.

Mr. Ed


"Dwarf Electrician" <may_I_see_your_passport_please@nospamyahoo.com> wrote
in message news:4235C65B.3060506@nospamyahoo.com...
> Markus Armbruster wrote:
> > Several columns in the production command are too narrow and don't
> > align properly for large values. I removed column wkfc to make space.
> > I chose wkfc as it appears to be the least useful column. Any
> > objections? Changeling runs the new code now. Example output
> > appended.
> >
> > Sun Feb 20 19:46:01 2005
> > PRODUCTION SIMULATION
> > sect des eff will make p.e. cost use1 use2 use3 max1 max2
max3 max
> > 10,0 j 100% 0 lcm 0.97 $0 0i 599i
581
> > 12,0 o 0% 0 oil 0.97 $0
0
> > 3,1 t 100% 14.32 tech 0.72 $6000 20d 100o 200l 38d 190o
380l 27.21
> > 5,1 b 100% 0 bars 1.00 $0 0d 600d
120
>
> drop the des column header, that saves 2 spaces
>
> drop the make column, we make the product that the sector produces, that
> saves 7 columns (medical)
>
> drop the $ in cost, money should be assumed
>
> drop the % in efficiency, assumed, saves one column
>
> return work, 4 or 5 columns
>
> additional idea, move 'will' to go between use3 and max 1, then you have
> a consistent readout, x(1,2,3) commodities will produce 'will', max
> 1,2,3 produce max
>
> additional idea 2, change will to prod for produced or product
> use(1,2,3) produces value
>
> thank you
>
> DE