Putting DOS on a thin client?

[Gregg Eshelman]

I have three WYSE S30 thin clients with Windows CE 6.0, setup to boot to the Desktop instead of Connections Manager (Reset to defaults by holding G key while booting until you get to it looking for network.). They have 64 meg Apacer IDE flash drives and use a standard DDR1 PC2700 SODIMM. 128 meg is what's installed, supports up to at least 512 meg, possibly up to 1 gig. Flash disk support up to 512 meg, may go higher. Apacer modules are available real cheap up to 4 gig.

The little boxes have four USB 2 ports, one VGA, one 9 pin RS232C, one 10/100 Ethernet and stereo speaker and microphone jacks.

They're essentially tiny little x86 PCs. Various compact Linux builds have been put on them and there's a video on YouTube showing Windows 98 booting one from a USB drive, but without drivers for some of the hardware.

A version of DOS, with USB support, shouldn't be too difficult. It doesn't need to have support for the Ethernet or audio. My goal is to use one to run a small CNC mill for which the only software available only runs in a pure DOS environment. The mill connects to a PC with a single RS232C cable.

Operating it with a small computer that only draws a few watts of power, running G-Code files off a USB stick would be very nice. No need for a big old PC and if by some chance the WYSE Sx0 unit dies there's a ton of them out there made between 2006 and 2012. (Just stay away from the first version with soldered RAM and a proprietary DOM flash.)

The ideal way to put DOS on would be to have an image made that can be put on a bootable flash drive using the WYSE USB flash utility. Removing the Apacer module to connect to a desktop computer would require a double sided 44 pin male header to connect to a 2.5" to 3.5" IDE adapter. With that, an image file could be put on, or DOS could be directly copied.

 

[bambiboom]

I have three WYSE S30 thin clients with Windows CE 6.0, setup to boot to the Desktop instead of Connections Manager (Reset to defaults by holding G key while booting until you get to it looking for network.). They have 64 meg Apacer IDE flash drives and use a standard DDR1 PC2700 SODIMM. 128 meg is what's installed, supports up to at least 512 meg, possibly up to 1 gig. Flash disk support up to 512 meg, may go higher. Apacer modules are available real cheap up to 4 gig.

The little boxes have four USB 2 ports, one VGA, one 9 pin RS232C, one 10/100 Ethernet and stereo speaker and microphone jacks.

They're essentially tiny little x86 PCs. Various compact Linux builds have been put on them and there's a video on YouTube showing Windows 98 booting one from a USB drive, but without drivers for some of the hardware.

A version of DOS, with USB support, shouldn't be too difficult. It doesn't need to have support for the Ethernet or audio. My goal is to use one to run a small CNC mill for which the only software available only runs in a pure DOS environment. The mill connects to a PC with a single RS232C cable.

Operating it with a small computer that only draws a few watts of power, running G-Code files off a USB stick would be very nice. No need for a big old PC and if by some chance the WYSE Sx0 unit dies there's a ton of them out there made between 2006 and 2012. (Just stay away from the first version with soldered RAM and a proprietary DOM flash.)

The ideal way to put DOS on would be to have an image made that can be put on a bootable flash drive using the WYSE USB flash utility. Removing the Apacer module to connect to a desktop computer would require a double sided 44 pin male header to connect to a 2.5" to 3.5" IDE adapter. With that, an image file could be put on, or DOS could be directly copied.

Gregg Eshelman,

I may be mistaken, but there is a possibility that an STL sequence may require a DX math coprocessor to run and it's not clear to me whether the Geode GX 366 MHz includes that, which is required to calculate the vectors for the cutting/milling. My first system was an IBM 486 which ran Windows 3.1 over DOS 6. As a primary use was AutoCAD 10 for DOS- which is vector graphics, it was necessary to have the Pentium 486 (25MHz) with the DX2-50 math coprocessor for CAD. By the way, with 2MB RAM and an 85MB HD that system cost $2,400.

The other aspect is that I would look into the file size of the CNC files as to whether the system has enough RAM to run DOS plus the program- which needs to store the 0,0,0 sequence reference, plus have the file in RAM. As far as I know, those sequences rely on fairly low latency for accurate running.

Perhaps consider using something like a Dell Precision T3500, for example:

Dell Precision T3500 (320GB, Intel Xeon W3520, 2.67 GHz, 4GB) > sold for $40.50 (11.9.16)

Add to that system a Quadro FX 580 512MB for $15 or so and have a 19" LCD monitor.

The W3520 is 4-core 2.66 /2.93GHz, the system can run 24GB of DR3-1333 RAM, a modern GPU, SATA II drives or SATA III with a PERC H310 RAID controller, and has multiple USB ports.

Load Windows XP, (I think the last version that supports 16-bit legacy programs), install MS Virtual PC for $0, and then execute DOS as a guest system.

For very little money, you could have a fast, reliable system using easily available components running on easily available drivers, that could in future create CNC sequences from whatever program you're using and if the CNC system is changed, use CorelDraw, the Sketchup plug-in or Solidworks and then run them.

As much I enjoy keeping the old system going- for examplea 1998 Dell XPS t700r 750MHz /769MB RAM, SCSI 66 controller with 80GB and 30GB drives , in the long term,q three or four older generation workstations are too good, too versatile, too easy to configure, and too inexpensive in comparison to really early day systems.

Cheers,

BambiBoom

CAD / 3D Modeling / Graphic Design:

HP z420 (2015) (Rev 3) > Xeon E5-1660 v2 (6-core @ 3.7 / 4.0GHz) / 32GB DDR3 -1866 ECC RAM / Quadro K4200 (4GB) / Samsung SM951 M.2 256GB AHCI + Intel 730 480GB (9SSDSC2BP480G4R5) + Western Digital Black WD1003FZEX 1TB> M-Audio 192 sound card > 600W PSU> > Windows 7 Professional 64-bit > Logitech z2300 2.1 speakers > 2X Dell Ultrasharp U2715H (2560 X 1440)
[ Passmark Rating = 5581 > CPU= 14046 / 2D= 838 / 3D= 4694 / Mem= 2777 / Disk= 11559] [6.12.16]

Analysis / Simulation / Rendering:

HP z620 (2012) (Rev 3) 2X Xeon E5-2690 (8-core @ 2.9 / 3.8GHz) / 64GB DDR3-1600 ECC reg) / Quadro K2200 (4GB) + Tesla M2090 (6GB) / HP Z Turbo Drive (256GB) + Samsung 850 Evo 250GB + Seagate Constellation ES.3 (1TB) / Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium PCIe sound card / 800W / Windows 7 Professional 64-bit > Logitech z313 2.1 speakers > HP 2711x (27" 1980 X 1080)
[ Passmark System Rating= 5675 / CPU= 22625 / 2D= 815 / 3D = 3580 / Mem = 2522 / Disk = 12640 ] 9.25.16

 

[Gregg Eshelman]

This CNC mill is OLD, as in mid 1990's, which is fairly well antique for CNC. Its software runs in MS-DOS and is small enough to run off a floppy disk, along with a decently sized GCODE file. Not STL, it's not a 3D printer.

I've done that on an old MPC TransPort T2000 laptop, which has the problem of a memory map so fragmented it's impossible to use HIGHMEM and the rest of the DOS stuff to load anything into the High Memory Area. Less than 640K is what can be worked with for anything DOS on it, even within XP.

So I had to resort to the function this has of breaking a GCODE file into chunks then adding commands to the end of each to load the next chunk when the one before has finished.

The milling machine has an Animatics (now Moog Animatics) servo controller that does all the motion processing. The control software just sends it commands so the host PC can even be an old 4.7Mhz IBM Model 5051 PC.

What *cannot happen* is anything interrupting the CNC control software's access to the serial port. That lets out running it in any sort of virtual machine. I tried running it in XP, where it would work, for about a minute. Then XP comes along and seizes control of the serial port.

It *might* be possible to run the software under Windows 95, which was quite DOS software friendly. I wouldn't lay any bets on it working with any newer version of Windows.

So if the WYSE Sx0 memory map is as 'clean' as a typical desktop PC, it should be possible to install DOS with the Panasonic universal USB Mass Storage drivers and something for a RAM disk to copy the CNC software to, then process GCODE files from a USB stick, without having to use the segmenting utility.

In short, a WYSE Sx0 thin client has computing power and storage capabilities far higher than anything current when this mill was new.

The company continued to produce it until being bought out, then the new owners kept making it unchanged (or perhaps just sold off existing inventory) for a couple more years. Nobody ever bothered to write Windows software for this model, but they did for the lesser model that used stepper motors instead of servos. So unless someone figures out how to add support for a Light Machines ProLIGHT PLM2000 to Linux CNC, everyone with one is stuck running it with DOS software, or going the $$$ route of an all new servo control system, or dumbing the machine down to the PLM1000 level by replacing the servos with steppers.

I did get all the technical information Moog Animatics has on their old servo controllers as used in these machines. Someone there very helpfully dug through their very old backup hard drives they've hung onto since before the buyout. The fellow who found the data was with Animatics when they started. If there's anyone interested in that data, I can send a dropbox link.

Of special interest, a feature of the controller that Light Machines left unused is the ability to have GCODE loaded into it then run processes headless, repeating over and over, restarted each time by poking a button. The mill has that button.

 

[bambiboom]

Gregg Eshelman,

I appreciate very much your taking the time to describe the processing of that kind of system, which seems admirably efficient of resources.

I've had only moderate contact with CNC, first in the early 2000's by way of a firm in CA that makes high precision parts for NASA- including the chassis for a Mars rover and Panavision camera gates which are .001" accurate. Their system are multi-axis, self tool changing, environmentally controlled enclosures and have integrated control that I think used AutoCad input files. Another fellow was making models for wind tunnel testing, another architectural model-maker, and another who makes signage.

An interesting one for me is the the wind tunnel model-maker's system as his models are often complex 3D forms and he didn't mind my hanging about while he worked. These are run from STL files, that he typically translated from Solidworks or Siemens NX. Solidworks, of which I'm a very moderate user, has plug- ins for this as well as sheet metal fabrication that plans the most efficient layout from the sheet size. The CNC system runs only from Windows XP and those are loaded from a Dell Precision T3400. I worked with him to make a wooden clock movement, which turned out to be difficult as the gears were minutely non-concentric and had the pinions minutely off-center, such that the clock would run only a few hours.

CNC and 3D printing is a fascinating and important technology. I went to a machinist expo in Penn in 2014 and again a few weeks ago and besides scale engines and locomotives fabricated on conventional lathes and mills, was thick with CNC and 3D printers, which are now working in metal. I saw a 5" metal Eiffel tower encased in clear acrylic and the resolution is astounding. Visiting my local particle accelerator where I'd done a small project had a reproduction WWII Jeep, entirely 3D printed.

Sorry, I couldn't offer any useful advice, but instead was the student - Thanks!

What kind of things are you making?

Cheers,

BambiBoom

 

[Gregg Eshelman]

What kind of things are you making?

Cheers,

BambiBoom

Mostly going to be making some car parts for Hudsons.

I've found that Panasonic released a universal USB Mass Storage Driver for DOS a few years ago, to support their external CD-ROM drives and other USB storage products. Easier to write one driver that supports that entire device class than to do separate drivers for each device.

I may be able to get the sound to work in DOS, if both VIA and Realtek's implementations of the AC97 codec match up. Apparently VIA was the only company to ever release an AC97 audio driver for DOS, and that driver does work with some AC97 chips from other companies.

Realtek has DOS drivers for their 8100 series Ethernet chips, so that shouldn't be a problem if I want networking.

Most likely won't have network or sound for CNC operation, but I'll try them just to see if they can be made to work. If they can, that would make the WYSE Sx0 series pretty neat systems for playing old DOS games.

 

[bambiboom]

What kind of things are you making?

Cheers,

BambiBoom

Mostly going to be making some car parts for Hudsons.

I've found that Panasonic released a universal USB Mass Storage Driver for DOS a few years ago, to support their external CD-ROM drives and other USB storage products. Easier to write one driver that supports that entire device class than to do separate drivers for each device.

I may be able to get the sound to work in DOS, if both VIA and Realtek's implementations of the AC97 codec match up. Apparently VIA was the only company to ever release an AC97 audio driver for DOS, and that driver does work with some AC97 chips from other companies.

Realtek has DOS drivers for their 8100 series Ethernet chips, so that shouldn't be a problem if I want networking.

Most likely won't have network or sound for CNC operation, but I'll try them just to see if they can be made to work. If they can, that would make the WYSE Sx0 series pretty neat systems for playing old DOS games.

Gregg Eshelmann,

Hudsons were interesting cars and a few years ago at a show in CA, I saw a Hudson- 1954 or 55 called an "Italia" a swoopy coupe by either Touring or Ghia.

I've fussed with old cars a long time and have had a good variety: 1928 Packard 443 Dietrich, 1936 Packard 1402 Coupe.,1937 Riley Kestrel, 1952 Bentley MV VIII, 1954 Mercedes 190SL(No. 60) 1957 Jaguar XK140,1955 Cadillac Coupe de Ville, MB 230SL, MB 300SEL 6.3, and including several Morris Minros and Volvo 122S's. etc. - about 35 in total. Fortunately, I never had to have anything made, although I talked to California Metal Shaping about making a 1936 Packard running board once.

When you mentioned games for DOS, it made me think of the only game I've ever owned, called Sail 95, which I ran on a 1998 Dell XPS t700r(PIII 750 MHz/ 768MB RAM) that originally had Windows 95. I still have that system loaded with 32-bit XP and has AutoCad R14 and Corel Grphics Suite 3. It can run DOS programs as I was using AutoCad 10 for DOS and Worderpfect 6.1 DOS at the time. I was thinking too that that system has a soundcard that was quite good, an Audiowerk 2 which was ISA 16-bit and that card may have had a DOS driver. At that time, the standard was the Soundblaster 16.

It's very pleasant to contemplate the history of computers and realize how good we have it now!

Cheers,

BambiBoom

 

[Gregg Eshelman]

August 22nd - 26th, 2017 at Hotel Karlan by Doubletree in San Diego is the Hudson club International meet. If you want to see Hudson, essex and Terraplane cars, that will be the place to go.