Question about Semi All Winds

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This question is about a winning hand in the form of Seven Pairs containing
all the Wind pais (tiles), namely:



EE EE SS SS WW WW NN



Can I claim the score of Seven Pairs and Semi All Winds (xiao si xi) with
the same hand?



This question may apply to both CMCR or IMJ Rules. (For answer in IMJ Rules,
visit www.iMahjong.com then follow these links: Click on View IMJ Rules
Online > Grade Elements > 27.3(2) Semi All Winds - Sample 05.)

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Cofa


On 26-03-2005 00:32, in article Tb11e.790197$8l.461734@pd7tw1no, "Cofa Tsui"
<IMJ@cofatsuiTAKETHISOFF.com> wrote:

> This question is about a winning hand in the form of Seven Pairs containing
> all the Wind pais (tiles), namely:
>
>
>
> EE EE SS SS WW WW NN
>
>
>
> Can I claim the score of Seven Pairs and Semi All Winds (xiao si xi) with
> the same hand?
>
>
>
> This question may apply to both CMCR or IMJ Rules. (For answer in IMJ Rules,
> visit www.iMahjong.com then follow these links: Click on View IMJ Rules
> Online > Grade Elements > 27.3(2) Semi All Winds - Sample 05.)

Imho, there is only one way to make hu in COMJ, and that is by claiming
Seven Pairs. You can combine it with Half flush (semi pure), so that makes
24+6 = 30 points. I think you cannot combine with All honors, since that
mjst be a Pung- or Kong-hand. (May be that the Takeshobo-digest is not
correct on this point.)
You cannot go out any other way, since you have only three series here, i.e.
three kongs. Nice hand, though; but if you want to go out on kongs, you will
have to meld them and take your replacement tiles.

Regards



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Martin Rep wrote:

>> EE EE SS SS WW WW NN
>>
> Imho, there is only one way to make hu in COMJ, and that is by claiming
> Seven Pairs. You can combine it with Half flush (semi pure), so that
> makes
> 24+6 = 30 points. I think you cannot combine with All honors, since that
> mjst be a Pung- or Kong-hand. (May be that the Takeshobo-digest is not
> correct on this point.)

I think that if someone made this seven pairs hand, no reasonable person
would deny that it is also All Honors. I would certainly agree that it was.
Just because the OIRB doesn't mention this obscure possibility (making All
Honors with three sets of twin pairs, all winds, no dragons) doesn't mean
that that should be disallowed. It's obviously a very rare and valuable
hand, and should score commensurately.

Tom
 
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"Martin Rep" <mrep@mahjongnews.com> wrote in message
news:BE6ADD8A.5271%mrep@mahjongnews.com...

[...]
>>
>> EE EE SS SS WW WW NN
[...]
>>
>> Can I claim the score of Seven Pairs and Semi All Winds (xiao si xi) with
>> the same hand?
[...]
>>
> Imho, there is only one way to make hu in COMJ, and that is by claiming
> Seven Pairs. You can combine it with Half flush (semi pure), so that
> makes
> 24+6 = 30 points. I think you cannot combine with All honors, since that
> mjst be a Pung- or Kong-hand. (May be that the Takeshobo-digest is not
> correct on this point.)
> You cannot go out any other way, since you have only three series here,
> i.e.
> three kongs. Nice hand, though; but if you want to go out on kongs, you
> will
> have to meld them and take your replacement tiles.
>

It's glad to see that a definite answer can be found from "COMJ" or "CMCR"
or...

By the way, just how many names out there are in existence for the very same
CMCR? Is any variant out of it already created? Can anyone tell?

Cheers!

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www.iMahjong.com
 

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Tom Sloper wrote:

> I think that if someone made this seven pairs hand, no reasonable person
> would deny that it is also All Honors.


and no one is more reasonable than Tom. :)

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Nine Dragons Software
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"Tom Sloper" <tomsterSPAM@sloperamaSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:MoydnclZiJ2p2trfRVn-og@comcast.com...
> Martin Rep wrote:
>
>>> EE EE SS SS WW WW NN
>>>
>> Imho, there is only one way to make hu in COMJ, and that is by claiming
>> Seven Pairs. You can combine it with Half flush (semi pure), so that
>> makes
>> 24+6 = 30 points. I think you cannot combine with All honors, since that
>> mjst be a Pung- or Kong-hand. (May be that the Takeshobo-digest is not
>> correct on this point.)
>
> I think that if someone made this seven pairs hand, no reasonable person
> would deny that it is also All Honors. I would certainly agree that it
> was. Just because the OIRB doesn't mention this obscure possibility
> (making All Honors with three sets of twin pairs, all winds, no dragons)
> doesn't mean that that should be disallowed. It's obviously a very rare
> and valuable hand, and should score commensurately.



I must have had an oversight of Martin's meaning. Let's first clarify some
terms:

Half Flush = Semi Pure (CMCR #49 hun yi se) = Mixed Same - IMJ art. 27.4(4)

Full Flush = All Numerals (CMCR #22 qing yi se) = Pure Same - IMJ art.
27.4(3)

All Honors = All Words (CMCR #11 quan zi) = Pure Same - IMJ art. 27.4(3)

(CMCR # means the element # in Article 9 of CMCR.)



After referring to the CMCR (the original Chinese book), this "very rare and
valuable hand" doesn't seem to value anything more than just Seven Pairs
(excepting any Selfmake etc.).



Surprised!



According to the definition of CMCR, Article 9, Element #11 All Honors ("All
Words" or "quan zi"), the combination must be in the forms of "chow" or
"kong" and "pair". Therefore, there is no way All Honors can be included in
a Seven Pairs hand. Compare to IMJ art. 27.4(3), Pure Same is not required
to be in any specific form, hence it can be included in the above sample
hand (Seven Pairs).



As to what Martin said: "You can combine it with Half flush (semi pure)", I
don't see any reasoning, based purely on CMCR, this can be correct, because
by definition, Half Flush (semi pure) must involve the numeral pieces.




I also found these interesting differences:




CMCR, Article 9: Element #8 All Terminals, Element #11 All Honors, Element
#18 All Terminals And Honors, are required in the forms of "chow" or "kong"
and "pair".



However, Element #22 Full Flush and Element #49 Half Flush both do not
require any specific form. (Hence these can be counted in a Seven Pairs
hand.)



Yet another interesting finding:



Although in the definition portion, i.e., Article 9, Element #11
specifically requires that the pieces are in the forms of "chow" or "kong"
and "pair". In the "sample hands" section included in the Chinese rule book
(page 65, sample 3 - it's on the top of the page), it clearly says that
Seven Pairs can also include All Honors! Only according to this sample hand,
Tom will be correct to include All Honors in a Seven Pairs hand.



But if the explanatory samples (and perhaps some Q&A booklets) can easily
replace the formal rules...


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www.iMahjong.com
 
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Hi all


On 28-03-2005 07:21, in article qvM1e.817797$Xk.84748@pd7tw3no, "Cofa Tsui"
<IMJ@cofatsuiTAKETHISOFF.com> wrote:

> As to what Martin said: "You can combine it with Half flush (semi pure)", I
> don't see any reasoning, based purely on CMCR, this can be correct, because
> by definition, Half Flush (semi pure) must involve the numeral pieces.


Cofa is absolutely right (in this aspect). No Full or Half Flush involved
here.





|
|Martin Rep
|The Independent Internet Mahjong Newspaper
|Mahjong News:
|www.mahjongnews.com
|The Dutch Championship Riichi Mahjong:
|www.riichi.tk
|The Golden Dragon Hong Kong Mahjong Club:
|www.gouden-draak.nl
|Mahjongpagina:
|http://mahjong.pagina.nl
 
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"Tom Sloper" <tomsterSPAM@sloperamaSPAM.com> wrote in message news:<MoydnclZiJ2p2trfRVn-og@comcast.com>...
> I think that if someone made this seven pairs hand, no reasonable person
> would deny that it is also All Honors

[trying to be ve-ery specific and NO manuscripts :))]

IMHO, Scoring in CO (and not only) consists of several orthogonal
parts:
* winning groups method: 4*3+2, 7*2 or 14*1;
* what are sets of which tiles are taken, in general: Honors,
Honors+Terminals, Semi-Flush, Full Flush etc.;
* more specifically: 123 only etc.
* points for particular elements: Pungs, Double Chows, etc.
* way how hand was finished: self, last tile ..., etc.
* other relevant points

I know that at least TWO systems are trying to declare way of scoring
step-by-step: Cofa's IMJ and Alan's Zung Jung ...
Maybe for CO we should write down something similar and very clear.


For the hand in question, I have no doubts that 7 Pairs does NOT imply
All Honors (Winds), so both should be counted.

Vitaly
 
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"Combo" <the_novikovs@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7c6538ba.0503311110.31b61ecb@posting.google.com...
> "Tom Sloper" <tomsterSPAM@sloperamaSPAM.com> wrote in message
> news:<MoydnclZiJ2p2trfRVn-og@comcast.com>...
>> I think that if someone made this seven pairs hand, no reasonable person
>> would deny that it is also All Honors
>
> [trying to be ve-ery specific and NO manuscripts :))]
>
> IMHO, Scoring in CO (and not only) consists of several orthogonal
> parts:
> * winning groups method: 4*3+2, 7*2 or 14*1;
> * what are sets of which tiles are taken, in general: Honors,
> Honors+Terminals, Semi-Flush, Full Flush etc.;
> * more specifically: 123 only etc.
> * points for particular elements: Pungs, Double Chows, etc.
> * way how hand was finished: self, last tile ..., etc.
> * other relevant points
>
> I know that at least TWO systems are trying to declare way of scoring
> step-by-step: Cofa's IMJ and Alan's Zung Jung ...
> Maybe for CO we should write down something similar and very clear.


I can't see by doing so could do any good. CMCR (also being called "CO" or
by other names) is a rule set that is still under "beta test" (as it itself
has clearly stated in the original booklet published in Chinese) but the way
it is being propagated and used is, in my opinion, very similar to the way
mahjong was being introduced to countries outside China in the early 1900's.
People and organizations are using various names for the rule set at will,
interpreting, and even ignoring, the original rules at will...

To help stop the situations from getting worse, I think those who are
interested in CMCR (learning it, using it in private games or tournaments,
etc.) should spend time in understanding its original meaning and restrict
their usage to be in accordance with its original meaning.
>
>
> For the hand in question, I have no doubts that 7 Pairs does NOT imply
> All Honors (Winds), so both should be counted.

This understanding is very reasonable. However, the rule (CMCR) specifically
states that All Honors must be in the form of "pong" or "kong" and "pair of
eyes", therefore All Honors shall not be included in a Seven Pairs hand.

--
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
 

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