Question Question about the possibility of a non-AIO 240mm liquid cooler( 2x120mm radiators on the same loop)

[Kultivater]

To be absolutely sure, I'll just email AMD and ask them to confirm thermals for me. But there's no way an AM4 CPU can hit more than 142 watts, so my only real concern with that cooler would be ambient temperatures. It does get a bit hot in my bedroom.

 

[Karadjgne]

No, I'm not confusing things, you seem to be the victim of misunderstanding. Watts in a cpu pertain to 2 items, power consumption and thermal output. They are Not the same thing at all. The 5800X3D is generally known as a 'hot' running cpu, for good reason.

Package Power Tracking (“PPT”): The PPT threshold is the allowed socket power consumption permitted across the voltage rails supplying the socket. Applications with high thread counts, and/or “heavy” threads, can encounter PPT limits that can be alleviated with a raised PPT limit.

1. Default for Socket AM4 is at least 142W on motherboards rated for 105W TDP processors.
2. Default for Socket AM4 is at least 88W on motherboards rated for 65W TDP processors.

Thermal Design Current (“TDC”): The maximum current (amps) that can be delivered by a specific motherboard’s voltage regulator configuration in thermally-constrained scenarios.

1. Default for socket AM4 is at least 95A on motherboards rated for 105W TDP processors.
2. Default for socket AM4 is at least 60A on motherboards rated for 65W TDP processors.

Electrical Design Current (“EDC”): The maximum current (amps) that can be delivered by a specific motherboard’s voltage regulator configuration in a peak (“spike”) condition for a short period of time.

1. Default for socket AM4 is 140A on motherboards rated for 105W TDP processors.
2. Default for socket AM4 is 90A on motherboards rated for 65W TDP processors

As you'll note, the limits for a 105w class cpu (5800X3D) is Default. Those apply in a non-PBO setting only. Applying PBO will raise those limits. There are motherboards like the MSI Godlike that literally set PPT to 1000w, and TDC/EDC to 1000A. You'd not need RGB lighting then, if a cpu ever came close to those limits, you'd have a nice red/white glow coming from the cpu.

The 142w is an AMD spec'd limit for the cpu in socket, just as a 65w class cpu will hit a 88w limit on the exact same motherboard. It's not by any means the physical limits of the socket. And motherboard vendors are quite well known to ignore Intel/Amd specs, and will freely change power limits/boost, all in affect to be able to market 'your cpu on our board gets better performance than on the competition'.

 

[Kultivater]

No, I'm not confusing things, you seem to be the victim of misunderstanding. Watts in a cpu pertain to 2 items, power consumption and thermal output. They are Not the same thing at all. The 5800X3D is generally known as a 'hot' running cpu, for good reason.

As you'll note, the limits for a 105w class cpu (5800X3D) is Default. Those apply in a non-PBO setting only. Applying PBO will raise those limits. There are motherboards like the MSI Godlike that literally set PPT to 1000w, and TDC/EDC to 1000A. You'd not need RGB lighting then, if a cpu ever came close to those limits, you'd have a nice red/white glow coming from the cpu.

The 142w is an AMD spec'd limit for the cpu in socket, just as a 65w class cpu will hit a 88w limit on the exact same motherboard. It's not by any means the physical limits of the socket. And motherboard vendors are quite well known to ignore Intel/Amd specs, and will freely change power limits/boost, all in affect to be able to market 'your cpu on our board gets better performance than on the competition'.

Case and point, read this article, and pay special attention to the part I will paste here, for your convenience:

https://reviewed.usatoday.com/laptops/content/amd-ryzen-7-5800x3d-review

"AMD’s Ryzen 7 5800X3D can not only give some of your games a nice performance boost, but it can also do it without consuming more power than other CPUs already on the market. For this power consumption test, I ran HWInfo64, which takes detailed metrics of all the components in your PC, in the background while playing Overwatch in 4K at 300Hz for a few hours. Noting the maximum CPU temperatures along with the maximum number of Watts consumed during those extended play sessions showed the 5800X3D uses significantly less power than the other two CPUs we used for comparison.

At the bottom of the list is Intel’s Core i9-12900K, which consumed a maximum of 179W and reached a temperature of 100C across the whole processor package. (This is near the chip’s thermal limit, and there was some thermal throttling present, which means the CPU wasn’t performing at its best because it was too hot.) Next is the Ryzen 9 5950X, which consumed a max of 145W and reached a max temperature of 80.6 C. But the Ryzen 7 5800X3D only consumed 73W at most, and never exceeded 78 C. Big difference!"

As you can see, you are very mistaken. I do, however, appreciate your input.

 

[Karadjgne]

Yeah. No. There's multiple factors not mentioned, or even thought of, by that article. Not everything that creates heat actually uses power, but is a direct result of power used. Namely the cache will create a ton of heat disproportionate to the amount of 'power consumed'.

There's also the fact that Ryzen are governed cpus that Intel 12th gen are not. Starting at @ 60°C, a Ryzen enters its governing state. It will physically downclock cores by @ 50-100MHz depending on power, loads and temps. Intel will boost to whatever max turbo is set in bios, regardless of power used or temps, only downclocking after hitting thermal limits.

So by @ 80°C, Ryzens reach maximim standard boosts, immaterial of the actual boosts per core attainable. A 5800x, 5800x3D, 5900x, 5950x is fully capable of hitting its default 142w socket power, IF cooling can keep it under @ 80°C.

The 5800X3D hit @ 80°C, so only used 73w. But that was Not the same as the thermal output which was far more than the 'power consumed' as is evidenced by the fact it hit almost 80°C on a 360mm aio, putting it in the 250ish watt range, thermally.

Not exactly sure What they did to that 12900k, but that's a 250w cpu with MCE enabled, which can be kept to @ 80ish°C with the H150i. The Corsair H150i is a @ 350w capacity cooler.

Don't tell me I'm wrong unless you can bring the facts, not dragging up an article with obvious discrepancies and questionable testing methodology. Try looking up GamersNexus or Hardware Unboxed or Anandtech reviews for the 12900k, Ryzen 5800X3D and H150i.

 

[Kultivater]

Bro, we're talking about power consumption here. Not pure thermals. But alright, let's talk about that then.

AMD locked this chip for overclocking because of its huge dies. The chip is expected to run hot, as compared to other Zen 3 chips. However, there is a huge difference between hot normals, and difficulty in cooling. Such as with RNDA 2 GPUs. They have a maximum temperature of 110C. That's hot as hell, by normal GPU standards. However, is completely normal for the architecture. The 5800X3D has the same maximum temperature as every other Zen 3 chip, which is 90C. The only difference is this chip is expected to run in the 85-90C range as a norm, under load, for the exact reasons you so long-windedly described, unless you have an overkill cooler(such as a high end 360mm+ AIO) You want facts? Here are several:

1. In essence, the 118W of power usage makes the Ryzen 7 5800X3D relatively easy for a CPU cooler to handle. But the high chiplet thermal density and hot operating nature of AMD’s processor means that you should not expect to see low running temperatures.
2. Here's one from our very own Tom's Hardware.
3. These are workload benches, not gaming, but still relevant.

In essence, if a cooler can cool a stock clocked 5800X, then it can cool the 5800X3D. Though, of course, it is advisable to have a little bit more cooling oomph for the 3D die. The air cooler Bill mentioned, for all my research, is perfectly capable, so long as ambient temperatures stay at an acceptable level.

(edited for typos)