Radeon 4830 vs Geforce 9800GT

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rockyjohn

rockyjohn

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I am shopping for a card in the same price range. I am not necessarily looking for top gaming performance - while it is important, quiet operation and low power consumption (less heat) are also important considerations.

I missed a golden opportunity a couple of weeks ago when frys.com had a sale on the BGF GTS 250 for $79.95.

Right now I am playing a wait and see game. I wish the new nVidia cards were out because I would be strongly inclined to go with them I think. I also like the GT 240 even though they are only a little more powerful than the 9600 GT - but run a lot cooler and use a lot less power since 40nm. I understand prices are expected to drop in the near future - after the novelty wears off - since the cost to manufacture is a lot less than the 9000 series.

So I am waiting to see what happens first to trip a buy decision:
1. The prices of the GT 240 drop about 20 to 30%
2. There is another sale on the BFG GTS 250 for $80 - or maybe a similar strong brand.
3. The new cards come out and there is a better option - maybe a replacement for the GTS 250 - but then I might have to wait a few months for those prices to drop - but competition might make it happen sooner.

I still generally prefer nVidia cards because I think CUDA will pay increasing performance dividends over time and AMD has not come close in having a similar option. And BFG is my favorite flavor of nVidia.
 
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jyjjy

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@rocky - The GTS 250 deal was nice assuming they don't mess around with people on the rebate(which is a common practice.) Such deals are rare though.
If quiet, cool and low power are what you are looking for then Nvidia cards really aren't the way to go except, I guess, for the GT 240 like you said but that card is definitely overpriced. It's also only slightly better than an HD4670 which is very cheap and about as cool/power efficient as you can get. I'd grab an HD4770 however as it's much better than either and also 40nm/cool/low power(under load it uses about half the power of the GTS 250)
FYI OpenCL would be the ATI equivalent of CUDA and it's much more likely to become the industry standard precisely because it has nothing to do with ATI really and isn't proprietary like CUDA.

@ the OP - The HD4830 is a bit more powerful than the 9800GT and also a bit more expensive so it's your call. Seriously though my other suggestion is the way to go.
 
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Bluescreendeath

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The 4830 and 9800GT perform basically the same. The 4830 is a bit more overclock-able though.

However, you can get used versions of either for around $70. For new versions, you're better off paying $10 and getting a GTS250 (9800GTX+) or 4770 or 4850. They perform about 20-25% better than the 4830/9800GT.
 
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rockyjohn

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I have never heard of BFG messing around with rebates. I have collected quite a few rebates over the past several years. A small percentage took a littlle persistence and a few emails but I collected every rebate. And such deals as the GTS 250 are actually not that rare at Fry's. They have them periodically. I usually notice them in their newspaper adds for the local store, then often find the same deal available online saving me a trip to the store.




Actually, the ATI version is called "ATI Stream".

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-stream-gpgpu,2335.html


It is not even close to CUDA in performance and software developers - including game developers - are writing code for CUDA - at an increasing rate.

Video games supporting hardware acceleration by PhysX can be accelerated by either a PhysX PPU or a CUDA-enabled GeForce GPU, thus offloading physics calculations from the CPU.

The list that follows is from :

http://www.nzone.com/object/nzone_physxgames_all.html

Below is a partial listing of current and upcoming PhysX titles available for PC and console owners alike. PC titles can take advantage of GPU-accelerated PhysX to provide an enhanced gaming experience.


GAME TITLE DEVELOPER PLATFORM
2 Days to Vegas Steel Monkeys PC
10 Balls 7 Cups Graveck iPod
50 Cent: Blood on the Sand Swordfish Studios PC
Adrenalin 2: Rush Hour Gaijin Entertainment PS3, X360
Age of Empires III
Distineer Studios PC, Mac
Age of Empires III: The Asian Dynasties Distineer Studios Mac
Age of Empires III: The WarChiefs Distineer Studios Mac
Age of Pirates: Captain Blood 1C: Sea Dog PC, X360
Aliens: Colonial Marines Gearbox Software PC, PS3, X360
Alliance of Valiant Arms Redduck PC
Alpha Prime Black Element Software PC
American McGee's Grimm Spicy Horse PC
APB Realtime Worlds PC, PS3, X360
Army of Two Electronic Arts PS3, X360
Auto Assault
Net Devil PC
AutoFans AP-Games PC
B.A.S.E. Jumping Digital Dimentions PC
Backbreaker Natural Motion PC, PS3, X360
Beowolf Ubisoft X360
Bet on Soldier: Blackout Saigon Kylotonn Entertainment PC
Bet on Soldier: Blood of Sahara Kylotonn Entertainment PC
Bet on Soldier: Blood Sport
Kylotonn Entertainment PC
Big Fun Racing Decane iPod
Bionic Commando
GRIN PC, PS3, X360
Bionic Commando: Rearmed
GRIN PC, X360
Bladestorm: The Hundred Years' War Koei PS3, X360
Borderlands Gearbox Software PC, PS3, X360
Bourne Conspiracy High Moon Studios PS3, X360
Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway
Gearbox Software PC, PS3, X360
Buble Bang Decane iPod
Caribbean Legends Seaward.Ru Team PC
Cellfactor: Combat Training Artifical Studios, Immersion Games PC
Cellfactor: Revolution Artifical Studios, Immersion Games PC
Champions Online Cryptic Studios PC
City of Villains
Cryptic Studios PC
Clive Barker's Jericho MercurySteam Entertainment PC, X360
Cluth Targem Games PC
Cosmosis Midnight Status iPod
Crazy Machines II
FAKT Software PC
Crusaders: Thy Kingdom Come Neocore PC
Cryostasis
Action Forms PC
Dark Sector Digital Extremes PC, PS3, X360
Dark Void
Airtight Games PC, PS3, X360
Darkest of Days
Phantom EFX PC, X360
Debris Midnight Status iPod
Destroy All Humans! Path of the Furon Sandblast Games X360
Divinity 2: Ego Draconis Larian Studios PC, X360
Dracula Origin Frogwares PC
Dragon Age: Origins EA PC
Dragonshard Atari PC
Driver :: Test Squad Interactive Media PC
Drop Point: Alaska Bongfish Interactive Mac
Dungeon Hero Firefly Studios PC, X360
Dusk 12 Orion PC
Empire Above All IceHill PC
Empire Earth III
Mad Dog Software PC
Empire Total War The Creative Assembly PC
Entropia Universe MindArk PC
Evil Resistance: Morning of the Dead Openoko Entertainment PC
Fahr Simulator 2009 Astragon Software PC
Fairy Tales: Three Heroes Cats Who Play
Fallen Earth Icarus Studios PC
Fatal Inertia KOEI PS3, X360
Frontlines: Fuel of War
Kaos Studios PC, PS3, X360
Fury
Auran Games PC
G.B.R. The Fast Response Group OPenoko Entertainment PC
Gears Of War
Epic Games PC, X360
Gears of War 2 Epic Games X360
Gluk'Oza: Action GFI Russia PC
GooBall Ambrosia software Mac
Gothic 3
Piranha Bytes PC
Grind WebGames3D.com iPod
GTown Interactive Community 2.0 9you.com PC
Gunship Apocalypse FAKT Software PC
HAZE Free Radical Design X360
Heavy Rain Quantic Dream PC
Helldorado: Conspiracy Spellbound Entertainment PC, PS3
Hero's Journey Simutronics PC
Hour of Victory nFusion Interactive X360
Hunt, The Orion PC
Huxley
Webzen, Inc PC, X360
I-Fluid Exkee PC
Infernal
Metropolis Software PC
Inhabited Island: Prisoner of Power Orion PC
Joint Task Force
Most Wanted Entertainment PC
Kingdom Under Fire: Circle of Doom Blueside Inc. X360
Kran Simulator 2009 Astragon Software PC
Kuma\WAR Kuma Reality Games PC
Landwirtschafts Simulator 2008 Astragon Software PC
Landwirtschafts Simulator 2009 Astragon Software PC
The Last Remnant
Squre Enix PC, X360
Legend: Hand of God Anaconda Games PC
Legendary Spark Unlimited PC, PS3, X360
Lost Odyssey Mistwalker X360
Lost: Via Domus Ubisoft PC, PS3, X360
Mafia 2 Illusion Softworks PC, PS3, X360
Magic ball 3 Alawar Entertaiment PC
Magic ball 4 Alawar Entertaiment PC
Mass Effect
BioWare PC, X360
Medal of Honor: Airborne EA Los Angeles PC, X360
Metal Knight Zero Online
ObjectSoftware Limited PC
Metro 2033 4A Games PC
Minotaur China Shop Flashbang Studios PC
Mirror's Edge
DICE PC, PS3, X360
Mobile Suit Gundam: Crossfire BEC PS3
Monster Madness: Battle for Suburbia Artificial Studios PC, X360
Monster Madness: Gravedigger Artificial Studios PS3
Monster Truck Maniax Legendo Entertainment PC
Mortal Kombat vs. DC Universe Midway PS3, X360
Mascow Racer IRS Games PC
Myst Online: URU Live Cyan Worlds PC
Need for Speed: Shift Electronic Arts PC
Nights: Journey of Dreams SEGA Wii
Night of a Million Billion Zombies PowerUP Studios PC
Nurien
Nurien Software PC
Open Fire BlueTorch Studios PC
Parabellum ACONY PC, PS3, X360
Paragraph 78 Gaijin Entertainment PC
Physix Michael Wuhrer iPod
Pirate Hunter DIOsoft PC, X360
Pirates of the Burning Sea
Flying Lab Software PC
Point Blank Barunson Interactive PC
Prey 2 Human Head PC, X360
PT Boats: Knights of the Sea
Akella PC
Pyroblazer Eipix PC, Wii
QQ Speed Tencent Inc. PC
Rail Simulator Kuju Entertainment Ltd PC
Red Steel Ubisoft Paris Wii
Rise Of Nations: Rise Of Legends
Big Huge Games PC
Rise of the Argonauts Liquid Entertainment PC, PS3, X360
Roboblitz
Naked Sky Entertainment PC, X360
Rocket Bowl 21-6 Productions X360
Rock'n'Roll Dice 3DA Interactive iPod
Rush Hour: Streets of Moscow Gaijin Entertainment PC
Sacred 2
ASCARON Entertainment PC
Shadow Harvest Black Lion Studios PC, X360
Shadowgrounds Survivor Frozenbyte PC
Shattered Horizon Futuremark Games Studio PC
Sherlock Holmes vs. Arsene Lupin Frogware Games PC
Sherlock Holmes: The Awakened Frogwares Game Development Studio PC
Showdown: Scorpion B-COOL Interactive PC
Silverfall
Monte Cristo PC
Silverfall: Earth Awakening Monte Cristo PC
SkylineBlade Midnight Status iPod
Sledgehammer Targem Games PC
Sovereign Symphony Ceidot Game Studios PC
Sonic and the Black Knight SEGA Wii
Sonic and the Secret Rings SEGA Wii
Space Race SARGE Games iPod
Space Siege
Gas Powered Games PC
Spectraball Flashcube Studios PC
Speedball 2
Kylotonn Entertainment PC
Squashem Jelly Biscuits iPod
Stalin Subway, The Orion PC
Star Tales
QWD1 PC
Stoked Bongfish Interactive Entertainment X360
Stoked Rider: Alaska Alien Bongfish Interactive Entertainment PC
Streets of Moscow Gaijin Entertainment PC
Strike Ball 3 Alaware Entertainment PC
Stuntmanbob potatocows.com iPod
Supersonic Acrobatic Rocket-Powered Battle Psyonix Studios PS3
The Swarm Targem Games PC
Switchball Atomic Elbow PC
Tank Universal Dialogue Design PC
Tension Ice-pick Lodge PC
Terminator Salvation
GRIN PC
Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter GRIN PC, X360
Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter 2 GRIN, Ubisoft Paris PC, X360
Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Vegas Ubisoft Montreal PC, PS3, X360
Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Vegas 2 Ubisoft Montreal PC, PS3, X360
Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Double Agent (multiplayer) Ubisoft Shanghai PC, X360
Tortuga: Two Treasures Ascaron Entertainment PC
Trine Frozenbyte PC, PS3
Tunnel Rats Replay Studios PC
Turning Point: Fall of Liberty Spark Unlimited PC, PS3, X360
Turok Propaganda Games PC, PS3, X360
Two Worlds Reality Pump PC, X360
Two Worlds: The Temptation Reality Pump PC, X360, PS3
Underwater Wars Biart Studio PC, X360
Ultra Tubes Eipix PC
Unreal Tournament 3
Epic Games PC, PS3, X360
Unreal Tournament 3: Extreme Physics Mod Epic Games PC
Urban Empires Radioactive Software PC
U-WARS
Biart Studio PC, X360
Valkyria Chronicles SEGA PS3
Virtual Tennis 3 SEGA PS3, X360
Viva Pinata: Party Animals Krome Studios X360
W.E.L.L. Online Sibilant Interactive PC
Wanted: Weapons of Fate GRIN PC, PS3, X360
Warfare GFI Russia PC
Warmonger: Operation Downtown Destruction Net Devil PC
Watchmen: The End is Nigh Deadline Games PC, PS3, X360
Way of the Samurai 3 Aquire X360
Welkin 4591 Outpop Digital PC
Winterheart's Guild Zelian Games PC, X360
WorldShift
Black Sea Studios PC
X-Razer Rayd GmbH iPod
X-men Origins: Wolverine Raven Software PC
 
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jyjjy

jyjjy

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I'm aware of Fry's and the deal like the GTS 250 is in fact rather rare.
As you said no one uses Stream which is exactly why I didn't mention it but thank you for the effort to educate me... OpenCL is what matters but I see you've ignored that.
Not sure why you listed the PhysX games but I've yet to see a major game that makes any real use of it and I do use an Nvidia card. Things like CUDA and Physx or on the ATI side DX10.1 are generally things people bring up when they are biased towards one brand or the other. If you buy an HD4670 or HD4770 you aren't going to regret the lack of occasional volumetric fog in Batman that causes your FPS to plummet that you could've had if you had only waited months for a GT 240 to be reasonably priced. Focus on price vs performance and you will end up happy with your purchase.
If you want good performance and cool/quiet/low power are important to you like you said then the 40nm ATI cards are the obvious way to go.
 
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rockyjohn

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Deals like the GTS 250 are not rare at Fry's - they have good sale deals regularly.


Stream is the ATI equivalent of CUDA. I don't understand why you say you did not mention Stream because no one uses it. Just because no one uses does not mean you can pick something else like OpenCL and call that ATI's equivalent of CUDA.


Well yes, there is a whole host of graphics card technology I did not mention. It was not germane to what I was talking about. I could have pointed out that on December 9, 2008, Nvidia announced its intention to add full support for the OpenCL 1.0 specification to its GPU Computing Toolkit and that on December September 28, 2009, NVIDIA released its own OpenCL drivers. How would that have made any difference? I was talking about CUDA that nVidia has that ATI cannot currently compete with.


I thought it was obvious. I listed all those games because it shows where an increasing number of games are now using CUDA related technology and CUDA provides an advantage.


They are also directly germane to any discussion of whether to purchase an ATI or nVidia card. Bringing them up in that context does not show a bias as you allege, it is just a required part of the conversation. I do not have a bias - but I do have a preference which I clearly disclosed along with my reason for it. Shame on you for the personal attack. In logic they have a name for such faulty reasoning - argumentum ad hominem. You are weak on the issues so you attack the person, even though it is entirely irrelevant to the topic at hand.


What?


I don't need you to state the obvious. I do focus on price vs. performance and my prior comments reflect that. I may also consider a few other items - like power requirements, heat, and noise - but I can make decisions involving multiple objectives, it really is not that difficult.


Perhaps. Unless I can get an especially good deal on the GTS 250 that greatly increases the performance/price ratio. Or the 40 nm nVidia cards drop to be competitive - which is expected within a short time after launch. Or the new line of nVidia 40 nm cards are released - expected next quarter - and have better pricing - or force the ATI cards lower. Oh gee - that is exactly what I said before. Guess I had considered all that already.
 
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jyjjy

jyjjy

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Sorry if I offended you with the subtle semantic difference between bias and preference.
OpenCL is totally relevant when discussing CUDA. It's an open, non-proprietary standard that's widely considered to be the inevitable replacement of CUDA(and Stream.) I never said it wouldn't work with Nvidia cards as you seem to imply and I specifically stated it actually has nothing to do with ATI. Acting like I don't understand the subject by bringing it up only shows your own ignorance of the topic.
Your "What?" was in response to me pointing out the minor role physx has played in games and that it often comes with a major hit in performance, especially on low end cards like the GT 240 you seem keen on.
Even if you hadn't missed out on the GTS 250 deal it wouldn't have changed that it uses almost twice as much power as an HD4770.
Listen, what you want is available, it's just that the wrong name is on the card so you don't like it. My point is that if you can get over your pointless "preference" bolstered by what are largely empty buzz words like CUDA and physx it would be good for you. This is honest advice and not meant as a personal attack.
 
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rockyjohn

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That is not a subtle semantic difference. Those are two totally different meanings. And your patronizing and condescending tone is totally uncalled for and out of place - doubly so since you are wrong about the facts to start with. You were wrong in accusing me of bias before, wrong to say now it is a subtle semantic difference, wrong to be patronizing and condescending, and wrong to twist it and attack me for correcting your mistatement.


Fine. And when do you think nVidia will toss away its investment in CUDA and all the work it is still doing to advance the technology and train developers to use it? When will OpenCL replace what CUDA does?
How long has Linux been the open system standard to replace Windows and how large is its market share? What is the market share of Open Office compared to MS Office?


And where did I imply that you said it would not work with Nvidia cards?
But since you compared it directly as ATI's equivalent of CUDA, how was I to know you knew that Stream was really the equivalent but you chose not to mention it but instead pick something that was not an equivalent to say was the equivalent? Since you claimed it was ATI's equivalent, how was I to know, if you did, that nVidia was working with it as well? Or that other readers would know. I merely set forth the facts.
And then again you twist it into another attack on me.
First off, even if it were true that I acted like you did not understand the subject, how does that show my ignorance of the topic? That makes no sense.
Second, I only tried to relate facts about the situation, which was made unclear by your misleading statements. For you to twist things and start making more bogus personal attacks is pretty sad.


What is your point - that I should buy the 4770? Are you saying that I should have paid 45% more ($115 for the cheapest major brand 4770 card vs. the $80 for the GTS 250) for a card that is approximately 20% less powerful in order to save a little on the electric bill? Sorry, that seems like a bad deal to me.



Sure - not an attack, which is why you use terms like "it's just that the wrong name is on the card so you don't like it" (which again repeats your bogus attack about bias - just in other words) and "pointless 'preference'" and comes at the end of a post starting with a very patronizing attack. I have no pointless preference to get over. And I already showed above that your purchase analysis on the 4770 is bogus - even without addressing CUDA.

I stated at the very beginning that "I still generally prefer nVidia cards because I think CUDA will pay increasing performance dividends over time" - clearly a forward looking statement. But you come in and are so sure you understand my preferences - "pointless" and otherwise - that you know what is best for me?

Tell me - how much time to I spend gaming?
Which games do I prefer?
What card do I use now and how quickly do I want to replace it?
Will my mobo support SLI or Crossfire or Both?
What other non-gaming applications do I use - ones that might benefit from CUDA and PhysX?
What is my income and how much can I afford to spend on a graphics card?

If you don't know the answer to these questions - and I know you don't - how can you presume to know what is best for me?

Maybe one of us is biased - and it sure ain't me.
 
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gebbz

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umm - avoiding the flames - I have a 9800 gt atm. It rocks. I can run any game well.

My only problem is that it runs a little hot when connected to 2 monitors at top resolutions.

I just thought I would put in my 2 cents since I own a 9800.

Also, Mass effect has an annoying problem of crashing and I think it may be related to my 9800. I have latest drivers nad have even tried about 5 older drivers that some said were more stable.

But Games like Fallout 3 and Crysis run like a dream.
 
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Bluescreendeath

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I also a 4830 at the moment. It's the sapphire edition, and in my case with decent cooling, it idles at 34'C and tops at 50'C at load. I OCed it by 50-75MHz (625 or 650 from 575) and it idles at 35'C and tops at 58'C at load.

It runs Left4Dead, COD4, GTA4 maxed out just fine on a 19" monitor.
 
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rockyjohn

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How pressed are you too get a card this week?

Prices seemed to have firmed up a little over the past week - Black Friday notwithstanding. For instance, the 4850 - ATIs card right below the GTS 250 - is THG pick for cards at about $100. Except at newegg none are selling for $100 - lowest price on listed is $120 (only one) and the other one is $125. A very limited selection as well.
 
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rolli59

rolli59

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It is actually the card man that has the rebates. I have claimed from both TD and NE and no problems.
 
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